First telescope help required, feeling frustrated by the finderscope

[Svsa]

Just bought our first telescope to use as a family, a celesteon 130eq, I just can't for the life of me set up the finderscope and the telescope to see the same thing.  It keeps going on about red dots and eyes open, but I keep getting 2 red dots.  It doesn't tell you where on the body you are supposed to try looking through it, the end, up close, no clue.  I have focussed on a distant tree using the 25mm lens but the finderscope is looking at something completely different.  I also don't know if the finderscope should be at 12 o clock on the body of the telescope or at an angle as the telescope instructions say nothing about where the eyepiece etc should be, I have tried rotating the body slightly in its bands to see if that helps.  Help please, i am not going to be beaten by a plastic tube with some mirrors in. Attached photos if that helps.  Thank you in advance. Sarah

[Filroden]

Hi Sarah (and welcome)

You first need to aim your scope at a distant object using your eyepiece - the tip of a tree or a pylon (being careful to avoid the sun of course!). Once you have the scope pointing at something you can easily identify you need to adjust the finder so it is also pointing at exactly the same thing. There should be some adjustment screws on the finder that will move it left and right and up and down. You need to adjust these until the red dot is over the same thing your scope if pointing to. Remember to check through the eyepiece from time to time as you could accidentally move the scope when doing the adjustments. If so, just readjust the scope back to your original object.

I hated my red-dot finder. I always forgot to turn it off when I wasn't using it and the battery would drain.

Edit: i forgot to say that the orientation is more for your comfort to easily see through both the eyepiece and the finder without straining your back/neck. The finder should be parallel to the scope so it doesn't really matter where around the scope it is located.

[Moonshane]

Ken is correct above. When looking through a red dot finder you should keep both eyes open and have the setting as dim as you can get it. You need to almost look straight through it and you'll see the red dot 'superimposed' on the sky. Line up the star with the red dot (maybe try it on the moon first as that's easier to locate) and then it should be in your eyepiece view.

To look through a red dot finder, the angle you look from does not matter too much but I ten to look from about 30cm behind the eyepiece with my cheek on the telescope (or near the telescope if it's frosty! ).

Good luck.

[Knighty2112]

Hi Sarah. I had this scope a couple of years ago (don't use it now), and quickly realised the finderscope fitted to the scope was pretty useless really, so I took it off and replaced it with a better one. This meant drill holes in the scope to fit a shoe so the new finder would fit on to it. You could get either a Telrad or Rigel finderscope that you can stick to your scope tube which won't require any holes drilled, and you will find that the scope is much easier to locate things with. 

[Svsa]

Thank you all, great advice.  Seem to have managed it with the gable end of a distant house.  I didn't realise you could adjust and adjust, I thought once both screws had reached their limit that was it, so, if the moon is out later I will give that a go.  Quite ridiculously excited about my first proper look through it.

[Peter Drew]

Hello Sarah, welcome to SGL.

 

You are not alone with this frustration, if it's any consolation I come from a very experienced background yet I have great difficulty in getting any sense out of this design of finder. The adjustments don't seem to perform the expected movement for alignment, there appears to be two black dots which I assume need to be lined up with each other. Unfortunately, even if you manage this, unlike other red dot finders if you move your eye off axis with this one, the black dots separate again. I usually replace the finder for users but it's a bit much to expect newcomers to have to do this.

[laudropb]

Hello and I warm welcome to the SGL Sarah.

Glad you have managed to get some success with the finder. As you can gather this particular model is not highly regarded. Give it a try on the night sky. Using your 25 mm eyepiece you should be able to get targets somewhere in view if not exactly dead centre.

[ronin]

Maybe a small point but I suspect that the focuser and eyepiece are too flat/horizontal. I would say that you need to rotate the scope by about 45 degrees so that it is mid way between horizontal and vertical. That will then rotate the finder out of the line of the tube rings.

You have to get used the a red dot finder a bit. You do not look at the finder, you look at the sky beyond it, then the RDF will project a "dot" on to your eye. Same principal as a head up display in an aircraft.

You do have to squat behind the scope tube and view along it at the finder in order to get your eye in the right position. So setting up an RDF tends to take some time - and lots of bending.

Usual instruction:: center something distant (2km) in the scope, look through finder and adjust, look through finder adjust a bit more and keep going until it is centered on the same object. Then go back and check main scope in case it has moved. If it has repeat.

I would guess that where you have the finder, on the front, is the only place it can go - couple of small predrilled holes. Another bit to take into account is that there may not be sufficent adjustment in the finder. You may need to add a bit packing to one end or the other to raise/lower it. This is not uncommon, so be half prepared to need something. Reason for this is simply tha Synta buy in the items and they may fit to many scopes so they sort of are specific to no particular scope and you may need to tweek things.

Start with the 25mm eyepiece at first, wider views so easier to find objects and it tends to work the best.

[Daz69]

I had this scope bought for me this Christmas. The finder is useless. I've tried in vain to get it to adequately work in conjunction with the scope. It is easy to align with the scope as described above, but IMO it is too small, and the 2 red LED's inside are pointing in the wrong direction. 

There is someone that I found via Google search who had adapted the angle of the LED's so that it worked as it should, and apparently he states that he has had success. However, that's all fine and dandy if you're good with tinkering, but even though this is the sort of job that I like to do, it is quite fiddly so I decided to just bite the bullet and go for a better finder, like a Rigel or a Telrad. I managed to get a secondhand Rigel which arrived today, and although many people say that because it stands up, whereas a Telrad lays flat, I can immediately see that the Rigel will be more comfortable to use due to it standing upright. It stands about 4" high. The Telrad will be around 1.5" - 2" from what I see, so there isn't much difference in height. 

You can get much better finders for around £100, and as much as I'd like something like this, I will wait until I progress to my next scope. 

Furthermore, if you go the same route as me, these Rigel's and Telrad's will be easy to sell. I was looking at a used secondhand Telrad on Ebay which sold for £5 less than a brand new one! 

 

[Aikidoamigo]

Once you have the scope finder lined up on a planet with maybe a 40mm EP then replace with a 25mm and make the alignment better etc.

it really needs to be very very accurate in order to make life easier as you search the skies.

Stick with it.... Start with the moon and work from there...  You will figure it out I'm sure ;-)

 

 

[noah4x4]

I bought this scope as my first purchase. It looked impressive as it had loads of twiddly bits. But within a few weeks I sold it as having viewed the Moon, Jupiter and Saturn (which I found largely by fluke) it became frustrating. Manually setting up an equatorial mount is a labour of love, and I typically found myself wanting to kick it over as by the time I had anything in an eyepiece the clouds had  usually rolled in. The slightest impact also knocked it out of alignment.  It always seemed easier to just point and aim with Finderscope, whilst manually star hopping. The precision adjusters were too difficult to use.

My advice is use it to learn the basics and enjoy, but don't invest further money on any accessories until you are ready to take informed steps to the next level of telescope.

[Bribrum]

Hi. I share your frustration 

i changed mine for a telrad and can highly recommend it. It's made things so much easier

 

[Louis D]

9 hours ago, noah4x4 said:

I bought this scope as my first purchase. It looked impressive as it had loads of twiddly bits. But within a few weeks I sold it as having viewed the Moon, Jupiter and Saturn (which I found largely by fluke) it became frustrating. Manually setting up an equatorial mount is a labour of love, and I typically found myself wanting to kick it over as by the time I had anything in an eyepiece the clouds had  usually rolled in. The slightest impact also knocked it out of alignment.  It always seemed easier to just point and aim with Finderscope, whilst manually star hopping. The precision adjusters were too difficult to use.

My advice is use it to learn the basics and enjoy, but don't invest further money on any accessories until you are ready to take informed steps to the next level of telescope.

Thank you for an honest beginner's assessment of an EQ mount.  Everything you've said is why experienced users always recommend an alt-az mount for beginners on a budget.  I will have to point newbies looking to buy a scope on an EQ mount to this post over and over again to dissuade them from purchasing one.

[Dave In Vermont]

Tinkering with the finder, whether red-dot or optical, is something you'll likely do each time you use the scope. Nobody knows how or why they drift a little, but they do. Don't worry about that. You'll get used to it - like riding a bicycle.

A tip is to adjust the finder by centering as distant a land-object as you can see in your main telescope - like a church-steeple across town. This is done in the daylight-hours. Once you've got this done so the steeple (or whatever) is centered in the main scope and finder, you'll likely need to adjust the finder a bit at night when viewing planet & stars. Stars are properly focused when they are a brighter little pinpoint of light. They are much too distant to resolve as discs. Good thing, too - otherwise they could easily blind you!

 

Never Look at the Sun Without a Proper Filter in Place!!

Dave

[BritAngler]

Svsa, if your 'scope doesn't have the 'standard' finder shoe, they are cheap to buy and easy to fit. I can't make out the type of fitting on your finder, is there any chance of a close-up photo of that please? Once you have the standard finder shoe fitted, you will be able to empty your wallet on a whole range of finderscopes, red-dot-finders & etc etc etc

John

[Louis D]

17 hours ago, Dave In Vermont said:

Tinkering with the finder, whether red-dot or optical, is something you'll likely do each time you use the scope. Nobody knows how or why they drift a little, but they do. Don't worry about that. You'll get used to it - like riding a bicycle.

I've found that if I don't unmount the finder, it remains aligned.  Basically, it is impossible to remount it in exactly the same position each time.  The fittings are just not precise enough for this level of repeatability.  Leaving it mounted risks damaging it during transport, so choose your poison.

[Alan64]

Hello Sarah,

The red-dot finder is integral to the cowling...

There, the user incorporated what looks to be a rifle-scope, and in the original finder's stead.  I wouldn't think that to be an option however.

If I had said kit, I would install a Vixen-style shoe for either a proper red-dot or a 6x30 finderscope...

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p299_Sucherschuh---base-that-mounts-your-finder-scope-bracket-to-the-telescope.html

That would require marking and drilling two holes into the optical-tube for the shoe, and perpendicularly to the length of the optical-tube...

But that would require removing everything from the optical-tube, front and back, and so as not to damage the mirrors.  However, that may be quite difficult to do with the Celestron.  Still, it was assembled at the factory overseas, therefore it can be disassembled.

Then to choose from one of these as the new finder...

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p3907_Celestron-6x30-Finder-Scope-with-Bracket---black--straight-view.html

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/language/en/info/p303_Baader-SkySurfer-III---LED-Red-Dot-Finder-and-Solar-Finder.html

You do, of course, have the option of leaving the original finder in place, as it's short and squat.  A new red-dot finder should rise above it; a 6x30 finderscope definitely will.

You also have the option of returning or exchanging the kit, and then to get this one...

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p1036_Skywatcher-Explorer-130P---130-650-mm-parabolic-Newton-on-EQ2.html

I would choose that option myself. 

Else, you'll simply have to make do with the existing finder.  Another option would be a 32mm(20x), or better yet, a 40mm(16x) Plossl eyepiece, to find the objects of interest with that, then to switch to an eyepiece of higher power for a closer look. 

Incidentally, you can motorise the mount in the RA-axis, and for automatic hands-free tracking of any object...

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p1025_R-A--tracking-motor-for-AstroMaster-EQ--CG3--mounts.html

The motor-drive would also work with the EQ-2 mount of the Sky-Watcher variant.

[cloudsweeper]

On 16/01/2017 at 03:30, Louis D said:

Thank you for an honest beginner's assessment of an EQ mount.  Everything you've said is why experienced users always recommend an alt-az mount for beginners on a budget.  I will have to point newbies looking to buy a scope on an EQ mount to this post over and over again to dissuade them from purchasing one.

Couldn't agree more.  Part of the problem might be the process of actually adjusting the tube to aim at something.  This 'scope was my first, and I hardly used it.  Only when I exchanged it for a frac on an alt-az did astronomy take off for me.  Now I'm a little more experienced, I wouldn't have an eq mount, although of course imagers are strongly in favour of them!

As ever, it's down to personal preference, experience, and needs.

Doug.

[JOC]

I read this OP and was very glad I listened to what the experienced SGL-ers told me when I asked and got what I did.  I've had a look at the videos for the OP's telescope on FLO and thought ***** that looks complicated!!  I am so glad I found this site before I purchased as I think I could so easily have bought something I couldn't have managed.

[Daz69]

Its not a difficult scope to use at all if you're prepared to learn how to use an EQ. I've only had mine less than a month, and although I'm yet to use the mount to it's full potential, I can polar align and then work out roughly where I need to point it, but that's enough for me at the mo. This does take time to learn, I can appreciate that, and I'm prepared for it to take me a while. I think it will take a few good evenings (preferably when it's warmer!) just to learn how the EQ works properly. My other nights foray, I didn't bother with alignment as it was an unplanned session, but I still had a brilliant session.

Furthermore, the mount needs some work, and all of the mount's pivot points need greasing for fluidity and easy usage, as they come dry. Hang a dumbbell weight from the centre of the tripod and get the weight near the ground to lower the CG to help with cutting down on some percentage of shakes.

If you can't get on with the EQ mount, just loosen the mount/tripod bolt slightly, and just pan round for manual viewing like an Alt/Az mount  

The first upgrade I did was to put a large penny washer and plastic disc behind the secondary mirror to help with easy adjustment. This makes life a big deal easier with collimation. The next was to centre spot the primary mirror with an A4 reinforcing disc. There's plenty of tutorials on youtube to do this. 

Aesthetically speaking, it's not the prettiest scope, what with that plastic monstrosity on the front end, and vanes that are too thick. But, for the price and a gateway into astronomy, it's a great scope. I'd like to get this plastic front end removed altogether and make new vanes from metal. The EP holder can be separated from the plastic front cap, so there is potential for doing this mod. The secondary mirror's holder size isn't important so long as it's not bigger than the mirror itself, so for ease I'd utilise the original one to work with the new vanes.

I don't think the scope can be beaten until you get to the SW 150, but that's another £50 dearer, but doesn't come with a tripod.

Ditch the supplied finder for sure, and go with the Telrad or Rigel for cheapness, or an illuminated RACI if funds permit. Upgrade your EP's. 

Remember, it's a cheap beginner's scope. If you can afford a dearer more precise scope, then get the dearer one. This one does need some work out of the box, but if you're prepared to do such jobs, then it is a brilliant scope. If you don't want to spend time to get these bits working to their fullest, get a dearer scope where it's done for you.

Upgrade the EP's as soon as. I bought the Celestron Plossl's, and the difference is amazing. Well worth the minimal outlay, which will never be lost as they can be used on later scopes, or sold to other beginners. I will, one day, get the SW 200 for sure, as stepping from the 130 to the 150 I think, isn't worth it, and I'd just go straight to the 200. 

Edit. Just got my flocking material, so will be doing that mod today as well!

[skywatcher58gb]

I've never owned one of these scopes but have used other peoples, the one common theme is the poor red dot finder. I would personally replace with a standard red dot finder or for a bit extra money fit a Telrad, observing will be so much more enjoyable.

[Kriss Craik]

Hi svsa,

this was my first scope and my kids still have their 76eg with the same finder. I found the trick to getting it to work each time (once it's aligned using a distant object as per the previous posts) is to view from the bottom of the scope, I think I found if I place my chin near the collimation screws at the base of the scope I could ensure I was looking through the finder at the same angle and I think that's the key/problem with this type of finder, if you try and view from the side you are viewing at a slightly different angle each time and so it seems the viewfinder is off each time when In fact it's you. As above with everyone's comments a telrad or finder scope would be a welcome addition. As for eyepieces the omni plossls work well with this scope and in particular the 32mm is a dream. This will also help with finding things as it will give you wide field of view. Hope you enjoy your scope as much as I did mine

[IceDiver]

I fully understand the frustration.

I have a Celestron 130 EQ -   I never could get the red dot scope figured out or aligned,  I kept seeing 3 dots.       So I took and old 4x rifle scope that I had laying around and mounted it on the 2 camera screws on the top of the bands that hold the scope to the mounting bracket.     I sighted it in just like a rifle, using the moon as a target (I know it moves, but if you are quick and check often, it gets close enough).    Since I have done this,  I can align on stars, planets, etc very quickly and be in business.

 

Telescope:  Celestron 130 EQ

Eyepieces:  20mm, 10mm, Celestron X-Cel LX 5mm & 2.3mm.     2x & 3x Barlow Lenses 

Camera:  Cannon EOS T5i