I dont want to use a computer!

[Spacehead]

Hi All,

I am currently tracking on the RA to take subs of about 1 min tops.

I need both a camera upgrade and I would also like to move to guiding.

The guiding (I feel) should come first, because I am really only short on Emmission nebula as my cam isnt modded - but plenty of galaxies out there.

I take the scope outside at night (when clear - so not very often) - I dont have a shed or anything, I have to set up and PA each time.  I dont have a problem with this, but the thing is, it gets soaking wet after an hour or two with air moisture.
Im reluctant to go setting up with my laptop outside for this reason - it would just end up wet through I am sure.

Is there a way of guiding with no laptop?  Something I can purchase which will connect to my motors and drive them to guide the scope locked on a target?
Something which - once "running" will allow me to click away on my cameras remote control to take exposures during a session, then go back inside with my camera and download the photos in my own time.

OR

What would be good - I could put the laptop in the conservatory and run cables to the scope so long as they can be 10ft long - is that possible - that would be perfect - having the scope chugging away with me sat inside with a laptop all nice and warm

 

[Davey-T]

There are stand alone guiders but some folk can't get on with them.

I use a laptop outside, just put it in a little enclosure (plastic box) and it generates enough heat ti keep itself dew / frost free.

Or as you say just run cables indoors and sit in comfort, I prefer to be outside looking up on the few clear nights we get, while the imaging rig is chuntering away.

Dave

If you're using a DSLR then you need to be next to it to focus so probably better off having laptop next to the scope and using the screen to focus.

[steppenwolf]

You can get stand alone guiders but my advice would be to not use one and make an enclosure for your laptop instead - this will make autoguiding much simpler to implement. If you are adamant that you don't want to do this then have a look at the Sky-Watcher Synguider  or the Lacerta MGEN.

[swag72]

There's a couple of systems that you can use so that you don't need a computer.....

Synguider https://www.firstlightoptics.com/guide-cameras/skywatcher-synguider-autoguider.html and Baader Smart guider https://www.firstlightoptics.com/guide-cameras/baader-lvi-smartguider-2.html

Do some research on these on the net and ask around ........ some people can't get on with them and others rate them.

[PeterCPC]

You can make a cheap shelter for your laptop to keep dew away. Mine never dews up in its shelter.

Peter

[Spacehead]

Hmmm - despite my post title - I am now thinking of a "shelter".  Would work for long spells of clear nights.

Assuming I am indoors - how long can I go - how long do the cables run to max wise?

Assuming out doors or indoors - what do I need?  Do I clip another camera onto the small scope on top of my sw 200p?  That then feeds into the laptop via a cable?  Then the laptop sends a signal to the motors?
So three cables either in or outside? (1 feed from cam to laptop, 2 from laptop to motors?) I only have two USB ports on laptop - is this ok?

 

[D4N]

Erm it isn't quite that simple on the base eq5, I think you need to look into getting the synscan upgrade kit then you can either link to the handset or use eqmod to go direct to the mount.

The bad news is it costs around £300.

The good news is that two USB ports will be fine though as the synscan controls both motors and you will also get goto.

[ronin]

The RA+Dec enhanced upgrade kits say:

The new enhanced handset has an ST4 interface for an Auto-Guider, such as Sky-Watcher’s own Synguider, and features SOLAR, LUNAR and SIDEREAL tracking rates plus selectable adjustment rates of 0.5x, 2x and 16x. 

But not sure if this is a full guiding arrangement however, the kits just looks too simple to achieve that. The other aspect is often you end up having to add on so many bits that the full Synscan goto ends up costing less and is likely a delivers a simpler and better final result.

For a "laptop" how about a used notebook ? These are around the £100 mark and for damp protection you could buy a plastic storage tub for £4-5 and put it in that. The tub can then also hold other items like cables etc that will be required.

[PatrickGilliland]

If you have limited connection you  could use a cheaper Intel NUC type small form factor machine.  Just put a powerful network adapter in then remote into from indoors or just run a Cat cable to the machine directly if not too far.  Again a weatherproof box is required but far cheaper than a laptop if it goes wrong!  That said you can pick up a second hand laptop for pennies and solve the issue that way!

Old PC Win 7 and guiding/imaging software job done (unless you have mount connector).

Paddy

[Jammy]

I've just been reading through this thread and it's got me thinking.

I don't have an outdoor shelter for my scope and set up every time I use it.

I've been using an old laptop which gets quite warm which keeps the dew away - and if it does stop working I'm not too bothered (it is really old).

I was thinking about using my new laptop outdoors but I've been reluctant because it has a SSD hard drive and doesn't get anywhere near as warm as my old one to keep dew away.

When everything is set up and running would putting the laptop into a plastic box be sufficient to protect it?

If so, I could probably operate the laptop from inside the house via Chromecast, wireless keyboard and TV.  Is staying warm cheating?

As for your original question, I've not used a stand alone autogiuder, but for the same money you could probably do just as well with a cheap second hand laptop.

Using PHD alongside APT makes imaging really easy - it does for me anyway  

[cfpendock]

1 hour ago, Spacehead said:

What would be good - I could put the laptop in the conservatory and run cables to the scope so long as they can be 10ft long - is that possible - that would be perfect - having the scope chugging away with me sat inside with a laptop all nice and warm

This sounds  like the best idea to me.  I also set up every time, and control everything from a shed  about 10m away.  My USB cable extenders work fine at up to 10m.

Chris

[Radec]

21 minutes ago, cfpendock said:

This sounds  like the best idea to me.  I also set up every time, and control everything from a shed  about 10m away.  My USB cable extenders work fine at up to 10m.

Chris

+1 on this. Cable extenders work fine over moderate distances. Just be outside to achieve focus on your laptop and then return indoors with it for any imaging run.  Watch out though, it gets addictive and expensive in that order?

[wimvb]

I use a sw st80 with asi120mm guide camera. Have attached this to a raspberry pi running lin_guider. Dslr is "stand alone" with intervallometer. guiding is monitored on my pc, indoors with wifi. Even if I lose the wifi connection, guiding is not affected, since it is done locally on the RPi.

Eventually I will add another RPi for mount control (indiserver).

Hope this helps,

[michaelmorris]

The most common way to extend USB cable over long distances is using an active USB extension lead.  I use one of these

https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/8m-usb-2-0-active-extension-cable-pro-p496/s638?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=8m-usb-2-0-active-extension-cable-pro&utm_campaign=product%2Blisting%2Bads&gclid=Cj0KEQiA7K7CBRCrwt26v5uHs98BEiQA0JzsZxMtWS0aZ6w0qsHreb0_dg68OEcgnavQNKY1T0iscZIaAvPU8P8HAQ

 

 

[Marci]

1 hour ago, wimvb said:

Eventually I will add another RPi for mount control (indiserver).

Shouldn’t be any need for a separate Pi - Guiding, Robofocusing and mount control is all handleable by a single Pi.

 

Max cable lengths...

USB 2 passive: 5 meters

USB 3 passive: 3 meters

Space multiple passive runs out with self-powered USB hubs. Max 7 devices per run. Each hub counts as a device.

 

With active powered repeater cables, I’ve done 250 meters for USB2 with no issues.

 

Condensation-proofing laptop: I use a £3k MacBook Pro loaded with 2x SSDs with aluminium shell which means it gets WET - Plastic stacky box with lid, laid on it’s side. Base of box should be as big as size of your laptop screen when opened, for obvious reasons! That said, this thing’s been liberally dripping with condensation on the outside and been absolutely fine. Heat generated internally means no condensation on the guts.

 

[Davey-T]

1 hour ago, Jammy said:

I've just been reading through this thread and it's got me thinking.

I don't have an outdoor shelter for my scope and set up every time I use it.

I've been using an old laptop which gets quite warm which keeps the dew away - and if it does stop working I'm not too bothered (it is really old).

I was thinking about using my new laptop outdoors but I've been reluctant because it has a SSD hard drive and doesn't get anywhere near as warm as my old one to keep dew away.

When everything is set up and running would putting the laptop into a plastic box be sufficient to protect it?

If so, I could probably operate the laptop from inside the house via Chromecast, wireless keyboard and TV.  Is staying warm cheating?

As for your original question, I've not used a stand alone autogiuder, but for the same money you could probably do just as well with a cheap second hand laptop.

Using PHD alongside APT makes imaging really easy - it does for me anyway  

My imaging laptop has SSD and doesn't dew up enclosed in a little enclosure made from plastic floor protector, I close the lid once it's imaging,  also useful for solar imaging.

Dave

[wimvb]

6 minutes ago, Marci said:

Shouldn’t be any need for a separate Pi - Guiding, Robofocusing and mount control is all handleable by a single Pi.

 

 

Yes it is, but the asi120 isn't fully supported by lin_guider, and I don't want to lose guiding due to hardware conflicts. RPi's are cheap, so dedicating them for crucial tasks is better practice, imo.

Using a RPi for guiding, makes it an autoguider (= stand alone), with the benefit of better software, such as lin_guider or openPHD.

[Leveye]

3 hours ago, Spacehead said:

Assuming I am indoors - how long can I go - how long do the cables run to max wise?

 

 

For long runs to indoors USB 2.0 is about 16ft before you'll need to use either a repeater cable ( up to 5-15ft repeaters can be used) or a powered hub every 16 ft. The cable from the device to the hub must not be a repeater cable. It must be standard. You could also run a multi-port powered usb hub with a single Ethernet cat5-6e output. That for me works the best for really long runs. Super fast uploads and frame rates.

[Davey-T]

Whatever you decide on get it all working indoors with short cables first 

Dave 

[SonnyE]

1 hour ago, Davey-T said:

Whatever you decide on get it all working indoors with short cables first 

Dave 

Very true that, Dave!

I spent many weeks indoors, focused on tree tops and Neighbors roof vents out a window.

_____________________________________________________________________

As for outside, no Observatory for me here. But once I get up and running I have a bin (plastic) that I invert over my laptop.

In my case, I have to prop it up with a common brick at one corner so my fan can exhale freely. But it does keep it dew free.

I think there are threads here discussing mini computers others have used at the mount and WiFi to their other computers, as do I with my covered up laptop from a table and cable bundle connected. (I rather wish I'd gone this way.) But then there is something to be said for having the laptops display on site.

One problem I faced was having my main camera dropping out and having to be restarted over and over. Quite annoying! But, putting a Powered USB hub at my table solved almost all of that. Because the hub supplies the power to the cameras and relieves the computer from being a power supply. I got the idea from a friend in North Dakota who uses a powered USB hub at his mount, and a single cable in to his computer. I put mine at my table because it was the easiest and fastest way to see if it would cure the problem. And it did. So I've been lazy and not fiddled with it since.

Anyway, just bouncing ideas around that are working for me. I leave my mount set up except for bigger "storms". I have a (clean) 32 gallon trash bin as my dome. (I bring in my computer and telescope each night when done.)

[wimvb]

2 hours ago, SonnyE said:

 

 

Ha, I'm familiar with binning RGB and binning data. But binning a whole mount/setup, that's new for me

[SonnyE]

1 minute ago, wimvb said:

Ha, I'm familiar with binning RGB and binning data. But binning a whole mount/setup, that's new for me

LOL! Yep, my $10 USD observatory dome.

Just the mount under there. The telescope (Vixen bar up) lives indoors when not in use.

[iapa]

I run 2 x Bluerigger 10m usb 2.0 daisy chased from a PC in the house out to the mount and a mains extension reel (JCB bright yellow so easily seen in what passes for dark here:) .

10 port, powered, USB 2.0 hub connects the star sense HC, Canon 600D, focus motors for imaging and guide scopes, guide camera and PoleMaster.

To do my polar alignment I just pop out side with tablet in hand, and plug the pole master into that .

I then sit in my nice warn from room, and do everything else in comfort with a small (relatively) glass of wine.

 

 

[cjdawson]

On 12/10/2016 at 11:41, Spacehead said:

Hmmm - despite my post title - I am now thinking of a "shelter".  Would work for long spells of clear nights.

Assuming I am indoors - how long can I go - how long do the cables run to max wise?

Assuming out doors or indoors - what do I need?  Do I clip another camera onto the small scope on top of my sw 200p?  That then feeds into the laptop via a cable?  Then the laptop sends a signal to the motors?
So three cables either in or outside? (1 feed from cam to laptop, 2 from laptop to motors?) I only have two USB ports on laptop - is this ok?

 

I've just make the leap from no computer to having a computer.  I still need to make the shelter, just need to get the corrogated plastic, then it will be cut, tape and done

 

Here's the setup that I've gone for.

Laptop 1 - this is my scope control laptop, it runs the following software.

1. OS Windows 10 professional.

2. Drivers for all cameras - Starlight Express Superstar, Philips TuCam Pro II (flashed to be a 900 something), Meade DSI, Canon 30D and Canon 70D.  (only likely to use the Superstar and 70D though options are good)

3. Ascom - for scope control

4. Alignmaster - check that out it will help you with the polar alignment.

5. BackyardEOS - for controlling the 70D

6. PHD2 - for autoguiding, the Superstar is the guide camera

7. CdC (cartes du ceil, or howeverit's spelled) for skychart and pointing of scope.

8. Astrotortilla. For plate solving (not tried it for real yet though)

 

The idea of this setup is to Use Alignmaster to get help me align the telescope, the demos make this look much simpler than trying to drift align.

CdC will be use to control the goto of the scope and get my scope pointing at the right place.

PHD2, will be performing the autoguiding functions.

BackyardEOS will then come in for running my 70D, so that I can take the images.

AstroTortilla will be used to allow me to capture data for a picture over several nights.

 

All of this stuff will be outside at my scope.  The laptop is connected to the cameras using 5 meter usb cables.   And the whole lot runs from a leisure battery box that I made a couple of years ago.

 

I have a second laptop (much more expensive, and more power) that will be inside with me in the warm and dry.  This laptop will be connected to the Astro laptop, either via a network cable, or WIFI (depending on location)

Then I'll be using Remote desktop to control the laptop.  This way, I'll be able to do all the stuff, whilst staying warm.

[SonnyE]

On 12/10/2016 at 04:33, Jammy said:

I've just been reading through this thread and it's got me thinking.

I don't have an outdoor shelter for my scope and set up every time I use it.

I've been using an old laptop which gets quite warm which keeps the dew away - and if it does stop working I'm not too bothered (it is really old).

I was thinking about using my new laptop outdoors but I've been reluctant because it has a SSD hard drive and doesn't get anywhere near as warm as my old one to keep dew away.

When everything is set up and running would putting the laptop into a plastic box be sufficient to protect it?

If so, I could probably operate the laptop from inside the house via Chromecast, wireless keyboard and TV.  Is staying warm cheating?

As for your original question, I've not used a stand alone autogiuder, but for the same money you could probably do just as well with a cheap second hand laptop.

Using PHD alongside APT makes imaging really easy - it does for me anyway  

Jamie, I would caution to allow a free airflow for the outside computer. What I do is to simply make sure the computer can blow its hot air away easily by using my brick as a prop for the one end. I tried running mine with the plastic bin set down over it, but I felt uncomfortable with how hot it actually got bottled up like that. So I prop it up.

When the equipment is parked for the non-observing times, the blue bin covers my powered USB hub and other wiring from the mount. HTH