wanting to get into astrophotography

[bazander]

Hi All

Complete beginner here but have always been interested in astronomy and anything space related. I  have decided I want to get into astrophotography as a hobby now I have the time to do so.   

I do realise this is probably a difficult area for a beginner to start with, but this is the area that really interests me. After a fair bit of research I have decided to go with the  Skywatcher Explorer 200PDS, as I feel it will give good photographic results as well as decent viewing. 

A question regarding the above scope, there is an offer I am looking at that has the EQ5 PRO Go-To Equatorial Mount bundled with it. Does anyone who owns this scope feel this mount will be good enough or should I go with an eq6?

Full details of what im looking  here 

http://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/skywatcher-explorer-200pds-eq5-pro-goto-telescope.html

As for image capture to start with I am going to use my canon eos 1000d, will probably go with better later on.

Would be interested to hear from anyone who has this setup, and any images taken.

 

[swag72]

Before you spend a penny, go onto the FLO website, in the book section and get hold of a copy of 'Making Every Photon Count'...... This is something of an imagers bible and should be read once, twice and thrice before spending a penny. Then think about what you need and why and only if you know that answer, spend your hard earned cash.

Astrophotography is very counter intuitive to anything you may have already done...... this book will help you to understand what you are doing and why.

This for example sounds silly, but THE single most important thing in astro imaging is the mount, not the telescope and not the camera..... sounds odd eh? 

It's a great hobby and all consuming I have found..... good luck! Sorry I haven't answered your specific questions, but I thought that this was worth saying

[MattJenko]

Welcome to the forums!

Sara speaks sense. To force home what she says and the validity of reading the mentioned book is that the combination you mention, the 200pds on the HEQ5, can deliver great results, but it will require an awful lot of things to come together to deliver those good results. For starting out in astro-photography, the best way is to keep things as simple as possible and ensure you get results that improve over time, but that those results are good enough to get you hooked. Struggling with a myriad of overwhelming factors in the beginning could easily ruin anyone's enjoyment of this hobby. If I were to start out knowing what I know now, that would not be my choice. It is not a bad one by any means, and as mentioned, can deliver great results, but you could make life significantly easier for yourself.

Collimation, balance, coma, spacing, tracking, guiding, wind, weight, setup, teardown are all things that this setup will require you to deal with. As you start to take winning images, you will find the odd thing that a visual setup looks nothing like an imaging setup in the end.

[ollypenrice]

If an astrophotographic telescope is not over-mounted it is under-mounted. The question '8 inch Newt on HEQ5?' comes up fairly regularly and the answers usually include, Yes, Maybe and No. To my mind that means No.

You are making a very big investment in terms of cash, time and emotion. The mount is the most important bit of kit, just as Sara says. It is not the place to compromise. Go for a smaller scope by all means since that makes precious little difference in AP, but don't go for a smaller mount. For a difference of £200 is it worth it? I don't think so.

Olly

PS To reinforce Matt's final point, you do have another option: go for the HEQ5, a small apo refractor for imaging and a Dob for visual. This will get you closer, on budget, to the best of both worlds than chasing the fictitious 'one scope for all.' A bonus which, until you have done some practical AP you will find hard to appreciate fully, is that leaving your imaging rig alone is a joy. Leave your camera in the scope whenever you can. Keep it ready for next time. Use the same flats. In AP anything that simplifies life should be embraced.

[D4N]

I think the linked deal isn't even a HEQ5 it is an eq5 pro.

The stated weight limit for the eq5 pro is 10kg, the 200PDS is 8.8 kg, add cameras and guide scope and you will be well over the weight limit when for imaging you should be well under it.

[cosmojaydee]

When I first delved into the dark art I purchased a similar set up, 200PDS, HEQ5 mount, its did'nt last long, I soon got frustrated, then I bought the book "Making Every Photon Count " by Steve Richards . I soon found out that I had made a few mistakes, and expensive at that . A few years into astrophotography and a few many thousand pounds later I have a set up which I am happy with, all the headaches and frustration could have been avoided if only I had taken my time and researched a lot sooner and harder .

Aperture is king for visual , but not quite so for astrophotography , one piece of advice I was given was rock solid mount , guiding, small focal length fast f ratio scope, then camera

The type of astrophotography you want to do whether it be  DSO , planetary (solar system) or solar  will dictate as to what equipment you will need , there is, as Olly states not one scope that will do all   

Take your time , research, research research   

Good Luck

[ronin]

The EQ5 is going to be too lightweight for the 200PDS scope. It is sold as a "package" as they sell the 200P on an EQ5 but the requirements for visual and AP are diferent.

For stability you will want the HEQ5 at least and preferably the EQ6.

For AP you do not need a big scope, you need a big scope for visual but not AP. An example of this is the William Optics Star 71, now in version 2 stage. So a good AP scope is 71mm. Read the posts and you will see the the main ones used are (or appear to be) 70-72mm refractors, 80mm refractors, 130PDS.

A good rule seems to be seperate and do not mix up the requirements for visual and AP. Both use a scope and mount but these differ.

Visual is more big scope and small mount, AP is more small scope and big mount. What happenss is that people go buy a big visual set up then try to do AP with it and it does not quite cross over.

[geordie85]

Here's a couple of threads that may help in your final decision. they are both imaging threads showcasing what can be done with "beginners telescopes" that several people on here also use as their main imaging scope.

And to also add to what others have said, a decent mount is essential. 

I hope you don't make the same mistake I made and spend fortunes on kit that's not really up to the task at hand. Imaging with your initial choice is possible but not probable or easy by any stretch of the imagination. 

Spend more first time, save even more in the long run.

[graemlourens]

Hi.

Things you should consider in my opinion:

You should start with something you can upgrade later without having to replace everything. If you've decided to go equatorial (vs alt/az mount) and you're serious about imaging, then go for the best mount you can afford (but that makes sense). Without that foundation, anything you put on top will wobble, or not track accurately and will be a waste of time. I started astrophotography 2 years ago, and after a few months of initial equipment desaster, settled for the Skywatcher AZEQ6GT that is still in use (now in my observatory) and has performed flawlessly, and i don't see why i should replace it (assuming i stay at my current widefield setup)

Concerning what goes onto the mount. You can either start with a reflector (like your 200PDS) or a refractor (for example skywatcher Evostar 80ED). I chose the refractor as its lighter & requires less maintenance (no collimation). 

You can then hook up your DSLR to the scope and start shooting unguided. This means the mount is tracking the sky, but has no means of checking if its movement is accurate (and in these kind of mounts, it never is perfect). Unguided will limit you in the exposure time, as over time those movement errors will add up, and you'll have fuzzy pictures. But to start with, you can probably get decent 30-60 second unguided exposures whereby you can start with the brighter targets.

If you're then still into the hobby, you will start to add an autoguider. This mostly is done with a second scope (relatively low quality for example the skywatcher ST80) that is 'piggybacked' onto the first telescope. It has its own camera and tracks one star, communicating with the mount to tell if if its going 'off target'. This will add substantial costs to the hobby (so i wouldn't start initially with it) but will allow you to make much longer exposure times (for example 20 minutes per Image)

 

Concerning choice of scope size you have aperture & focal length (& focal ratio).

You should read about both of those terms (in the book that was mentioned everything is explained very well) and consider few things:

- Lots of targets are absolutely HUGE in the sky (equals to the moon, or even bigger for example the andromeda galaxy). Don't think you need to go for a long focal length, as you will not fit the subject into the frame! (there is no 'zooming out' with telescopes  )
- the longer the focal length you are getting, the harder it will be to do unguided & guided imaging - every 'wrong' movement causes a bigger effect on the final image (compare it to zooming in full way with your dslr, every small shake pretty much ruins the image)
- The heavier your equipment is, the more stress its putting on the mount and the more difficult it will be for the mount to do accurate tracking of the sky
- For astrophotography its not necessary to have a huge aperture. You can compensate for that with longer exposures or driving to a darker site. You can get pretty much many of the stunning images with a simple 80mm aperture (search for a thread 'what can ed80 do for you' in this forum to see examples, or in my signature you'll find a link to a few humble images of mine)
- equipment that is not used is useless, so if you're going to have to be portable, consider if you're able to move all the equipment without breaking your back

Kind regards, Graem

 

[bazander]

Many Thanks for all the replies.

I kinda suspected the mount may not be up to task so will go with an EQ6( why do places like rother valley sell my original choice as kits  ideal for AP).  I  will definitely oder every photon counts, (just started reading Digital SLR AP, Michael Covington).

Re the scope, seems as though my initial choice is high maintenance, and not ideal choice so I will opt for one of the refractors SW EDO80 seems excellent judging by images in links.

I think maybe the best thing for me to do is take my time getting into AP, as I don't want to be put off the hobby by either bad equipment choice or  lack of knowledge. 

As others have suggested I think I will  get a dob for viewing, I'm leaning heavily towards  the  Skywatcher Skyliner 200P, and maybe in 6 months time or so getting the AP setup.

Thanks for advice 

 

 

[barkis]

All very sound advice above, The mount has to dominate the Imaging device, and whilst the 200 pds
Is an Ideal choice, I think I would opt. for a ED80 Apo refractor.
One of the Mod. team  had great success with the 130 pds.
Of course you have made a sensible choice with thew EQ6 Pro mount,
the imaging telescope has to be a personal choice for you.
Then of course you will need a guide scope too. A cheap Achromatic refractor will suffice there.
Plenty of forethought,but don't hesitate to return here for advice should you feel the need.
They are only too willing to help here.

[triton1]

Good choice to go with the neq6 at least it will be future proof for whatever you want to put on it and also if buying a dob for visual you could always mount the ota on the neq6 if you prefer the goto function best of both worlds.Good advice above on the book "Every photon counts" a must read if your thinking of going to the "dark side".

[brantuk]

All sound advice above and congrats on a very sensible decision with the NEQ6 - I had one and it's smashing - it'll give you a great start with imaging and you can mount many different scope types on it for a variety of purposes. It's always best to keep two separate rigs if you wish to observe as well - in that respect a good aperture dob (8" or more) is a great idea - it'll certainly help you to learn the sky which is essential (and often overlooked) for both aspects of astronomy. Enjoy your new hobby and do make this the first place to come for advice.

 

[happy-kat]

If you cannot store your propsed heavy mount plus kit closed to where you will be setting it up it may prove too heavy cumbersome to set up to use. Think about the whole situation, your imaging site and your storage location what's the distance are there stairs how many trips to move all the gear.

[bazander]

Thanks for the encouragement.

Have now ordered the book,  looking forward to starting off with the Skyliner 200P.  

As an aside does any one know of any good  clubs in the Cumbria area, a quick google only reveals 3 (Carlisle, Cockermouth and Kendal) Im in the Furness area so Kendal is not so far away(45mins drive). 

[happy-kat]

I hadn't meant to be discouraging, only trying to ensure thinking about the whole sitution when it comes to choosing and using.

[bazander]

42 minutes ago, happy-kat said:

If you cannot store your propsed heavy mount plus kit closed to where you will be setting it up it may prove too heavy cumbersome to set up to use. Think about the whole situation, your imaging site and your storage location what's the distance are there stairs how many trips to move all the gear.

Im hoping to setup in Garden Room, where I live its not too bad for light pollution. My back garden leads to a vallley/woodland area with no lights at all for a few miles. the front of the house however has some street lighting (2 lamp posts in a stretch of a hundred yards or so), although not visible from the back, would this affect my viewing?

[graemlourens]

In my opinion that will not affect your viewing noticeably, neither will it your photos. It will take more than that. Its only a problem if those lamp posts shine directly into your face, as your eyes will have a hard time adapting to the darkness (pretty important for visual, it takes up to 30 minutes in my case to get my eyes settled)

Kind regards, Graem

[cjdawson]

I see you've had loads of great advice already, but thought I'd weigh in an give a slightly different perspective...

I started my AP journey in 2001.  At that point people were spending huge amounts of big scopes as Film AP was still the thing. And indeed, this is how I started out.  For the kit I had, managed to get some OK results.  Slowly building up my kit, I bought a guide scope, and started autoguiding using a webcam and K3CCDTools2 (then later K3CCDTools3)  It was all very heath robinson, but it worked when I could find a guide star.  And this is where the frustrations layed for me.

 

The advice about don't skimp is not to be taken lightly.

Get the sturdiest mount that your money can buy.  Don't hold back on this. A good strong EQ mount is essential for long exposures.  If it wobbles, you loose the image, end of story.

Power.  Running a telescope for AP has a large power requirement.    With drive for mount, dew bands, laptop, cameras, lightbox.  You'll need a big power supply.   I use a 70Ah battery, which is enough for one evening.  If you have mains available use it.  (but remember about electrical safety.  Dew + electricity does not end well)

Guiding.  Don't skimp here.  My current understanding is that sensitivity of the guide camera is king. If you can't see a star, you can't guide.      I've had many a frustrating night where I was unable to locate a guide star with my guide scope.  So much so that I've just spend about £500 on a new guide camera, and am hoping to get some use out of it this eveing.    I've tried, web cam based guiding and a stand alone guider.  Both work, when you can aquire a guide star, but if it can't see the star, it's useless.

Laptop, you don't need a powerful laptop.  However, I just bought a new laptop with a 45W power supply.  Whilst you don't need alot of processing power to run the scope.  It's great that the more modern laptops use much less power than the ones from even a couple of years ago.  Lower power consumption = longer session on that core battery.     Don't bother trying to power the laptop from it's internal battery for the session, it won't last long enough, no matter what the advertised battery life is.

 

I got started in AP before books like Making every photon counts where written.  I've seen people call it the bible here and recommend it alot.  So I thought, I'm missing out on something here, so bought a copy.  Frankly, I was disappointed with it.  It's an OK beginners overview but frankly, if you read the SGL and other forums enough, you'll not need the book.

 

The important thing to do is know what you want to target.  Use all the advise that you can get (and question all that advise until you understand that you need) try out kit if you can.  And spend wisely.      Kit is expensive, and in a few years there might be something better, so keep your eye's open, keep your mind open to other ideas and if you build anything yourself (which is likely) over engineer it, so that you have room to expand.

[ChrisLX200]

2 hours ago, cjdawson said:

I see you've had loads of great advice already, but thought I'd weigh in an give a slightly different perspective...

I started my AP journey in 2001.  At that point people were spending huge amounts of big scopes as Film AP was still the thing. And indeed, this is how I started out.  For the kit I had, managed to get some OK results.  Slowly building up my kit, I bought a guide scope, and started autoguiding using a webcam and K3CCDTools2 (then later K3CCDTools3)  It was all very heath robinson, but it worked when I could find a guide star.  And this is where the frustrations layed for me.

 

The advice about don't skimp is not to be taken lightly.

Get the sturdiest mount that your money can buy.  Don't hold back on this. A good strong EQ mount is essential for long exposures.  If it wobbles, you loose the image, end of story.

Power.  Running a telescope for AP has a large power requirement.    With drive for mount, dew bands, laptop, cameras, lightbox.  You'll need a big power supply.   I use a 70Ah battery, which is enough for one evening.  If you have mains available use it.  (but remember about electrical safety.  Dew + electricity does not end well)

Guiding.  Don't skimp here.  My current understanding is that sensitivity of the guide camera is king. If you can't see a star, you can't guide.      I've had many a frustrating night where I was unable to locate a guide star with my guide scope.  So much so that I've just spend about £500 on a new guide camera, and am hoping to get some use out of it this eveing.    I've tried, web cam based guiding and a stand alone guider.  Both work, when you can aquire a guide star, but if it can't see the star, it's useless.

Laptop, you don't need a powerful laptop.  However, I just bought a new laptop with a 45W power supply.  Whilst you don't need alot of processing power to run the scope.  It's great that the more modern laptops use much less power than the ones from even a couple of years ago.  Lower power consumption = longer session on that core battery.     Don't bother trying to power the laptop from it's internal battery for the session, it won't last long enough, no matter what the advertised battery life is.

 

I got started in AP before books like Making every photon counts where written.  I've seen people call it the bible here and recommend it alot.  So I thought, I'm missing out on something here, so bought a copy.  Frankly, I was disappointed with it.  It's an OK beginners overview but frankly, if you read the SGL and other forums enough, you'll not need the book.

 

The important thing to do is know what you want to target.  Use all the advise that you can get (and question all that advise until you understand that you need) try out kit if you can.  And spend wisely.      Kit is expensive, and in a few years there might be something better, so keep your eye's open, keep your mind open to other ideas and if you build anything yourself (which is likely) over engineer it, so that you have room to expand.

Some good advice which is obviously from an experienced astro-imager. I might point out though that 'Making Every Photon Count', although perhaps disappointing to you, is a valuable resource to someone new to the hobby. Yes, most of the same info is scattered around the 'net but it's so much nicer to have it all in one place rather than have to trawl websites for it   I read my copy a while back and sold it on just recently but I don't regret buying it.

There's always new kit coming out just over the horizon, I don't see much point in waiting - just choose gear that has a proven track record if you don't wish to experiment with cutting-edge tech.

ChrisH

[Astrosurf]

My favourite imaging rig is my HEQ5 Pro and 72mm refractor. I started imaging with my 200P and got great results but there could be no breeze as the scope's a bit of a sail! I still use it for small galaxies and for planetary. But mainly use my frac for deep sky as it's small and light and therefore the mount holds it securely.

Good luck!

Alexxx

[iapa]

Read making every photon count

repeat three times

leVe it for a week and reread

ask questions here

The consider a couple of options.

Remember many setups sold as 'complete' have an OTA near the payload limit of the mount it is sold with, which is OK for viewing

the mount is the basis what you are going to do for the next couple of years 

I found the 200PDS, with a f5 800mm (400mm focal length) plus DSLR ran to around 30lb, so, looked around for a mount that was capable of around twice that pay load and settled for a CGEM-DX with a rated payload of 55lb. I don't know about the (N)EQ5/6 mounts many people are recommending.

But, I took account of the issues with reflectors such as need for collimating, coma correction - refractors also have their issue too (unless you are starting with a budget for kit owned by the likes of Olly ??). I decided I wanted the benefits of aperture against other considerations as I was going to be using a DSLR for the first couple of years.

[ollypenrice]

As someone who writes for magazines from time to time I can promise you that going into any kind of fine detail consumes words like the sun consumes hydrogen atoms.

So Steve's book gives a structured overview which can act as a base from which to reach out with specific questions here on SGL and elsewhere. Indeed, more importantly, it gives you a clear idea of what questions you need to be asking.

In reality no one part of AP is particularly difficult. The problem is that it has a lot of parts, many of which are inter-dependent so you need to learn them simultaneously - which is the difficult bit!

Olly

[bazander]

Hi All

I now have in my possession the famous book looking forward to reading it .  I know I said I was going the dob route for viewing first then getting the AP kit, however    I now have the chance to purchase this 2nd hand as it is local to me and the guy doesn't want the hassle of shipping, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172423711929?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT my thoughts are get this now, instead of the dob and add the ed80 pro later for AP.  Problem I have is I wouldn't have a clue if somethings bad with the mount (do they have bearings that could be worn etc). should I stick with initial plan of dob the AP kit or do you lot reckon this is a good buy, I reckon id get it at asking price or maybe bit less even.

 

Im going to look at it tomorrow so any quick replies more than welcome

 

Cheers

 

[Astrosurf]

I personally would say that's a very good deal. But why so cheap? It's always a risk buying second hand. Get him to slew the scope and listen to the gears. If they make a horrible noise then they're in need of an overhaul. Make sure the clutches lock tight so you can't move RA and dec by hand. Also get him to show you how the handset works, to make sure it does! Have a close look at the scope's mirrors to make sure they're not cracked or marked. A bit of dust is fine. My primary is quite dirty and still works well. Try the focuser. Is it slack or firm? Not too tight (if it is try loosening the tightening nut underneath, if it has one). The scope looks longer than the standard 200P to me, unless my eyes are going! I'm sure someone else will be along soon to add their bit!

Alexxx