Heads up - Televue 20% sale

[alan potts]

11 hours ago, estwing said:

Just need an 8mm ethos and a 2" x2 powermate then you're sorted 

As I have said before and of course it is all down to F/L  and to some degree mirror size. I find I go 31mm Nagler then to 17mm Ethos and then usually top out at 10mm E. I do sometimes drop the 8mm in but very very rarely ever use the 6mm.

As for TV eyepieces I would like the 5mm De-lite and maybe the 7mm but Telly House want 45 quid for courier costs which is silly based on what FLO have charged me in the past for shipping heavier objects by respectable couriers. Amazon also manage to send me things like an all metal mincing machine which weighs more than a whole range of Ethos for 16 quid, marginly more expensive than FLO. Sometimes my love of sausages is greater than my desire to have more eyepieces.

Alan

[swamp thing]

15 hours ago, spaceboy said:

 

What I mean before everyone jumps down my throat. Do you feel for example a 21mm Ethos at £815 offers twice the performance of a 20mm ES 100° at £452 ??

 

 

I won't be jumping anywhere Nick  

I have neither of these eyepieces but I have used them both. I would say that although slightly better the TV is nowhere near being twice as good. Marginally better it is, twice as good, not a chance.

I should add that testing these in my scope is quite a strong test of an eyepieces quality as it is large and fast. The ES stands up very well indeed and is like a 100˚ Nagler (which is no slouch). In other words I believe the ES 100˚ eyepieces are bloody good, offering 95% of Ethos performance for around 1/2 the price is nothing short of phenomenal.

The next argument is price and that is not so straightforward...........

You cannot expect twice the performance by doubling your budget once a high standard has been achieved that is simply not possible and NEVER happens. Eg double your budget on a race car will it then lap twice as fast......of course not, you'll be lucky to shave a second or two off your lap times. Is it worth the extra seconds???? your call..........

I would conclude by saying if I was in the market for 100˚ eyepieces having used both.......... I would buy the ES. You get far more for your money IMO. And that comes from a TV user.  

Have fun out there  

[Mark at Beaufort]

I have owned the 8mm, 13mm and 21mm Ethos EPs and sold them when I bought a smaller 8" Orion Newt. When I purchased the 12" F/5 Dob earlier this year I was lucky to get a Myraid 20mm 100 degree EP S/H. To be honest it does not seem too different from the 21mm Ethos that I had although I never had the chance to compare side by side. The Myraid range has really dropped in price and you can buy the 20mm for £179 now that is a very big drop from the £800+ for the TV.

I also bought new the 9mm Myraid for £159 and again I find it pretty good. However, they don't make a 13mm or 14mm so I have now purchased a 13mm Ethos and I love it.

Happy to bring along these EPs at a future SGL star party so that the Dob Mob can give their opinions on these Myraid EPs.

[alan potts]

Going a little away from the sale discount but still on TV. Personally I like their eyepieces and as far as I am aware they developed all of the the ranges on the market that they sell today, the work behind this alone is costly and obviously is part of what you are paying for. I feel that ExSc Meade and all the others would have had nowhere near the same R&D expensne for what they market as I believe for the most part they copied to some degree.

When you look at eyepieces ExSc will have had to develope like the 25mm and 9mm 120 degree the costs are not a million miles away from what TeleVue are charging. Personally I will continue to buy TV but that is of course because I can, it is sad that not everyone can afford them or indeed may not want to.

Alan

[Highburymark]

Good point about development costs Alan. In many respects the Televue business model is similar to BMW's - in that it maintains a prestigious brand name while selling to a large market - not an easy thing to do. High margins and comparatively high volume (compared with other top end competitors) has allowed TV to invest heavily in R&D. But the question now is whether it can continue to justify its huge prices with innovative products? When was the last time TV really launched a truly ground-breaking eyepiece? Ethos is getting on a bit, while Delite (no matter how good, or how much I want one for my new lightweight set up) gives the impression that the company is treading water - an attempt maybe to keep revenue ticking over while the creative team works on something that will redefine eyepiece design once again? Let's hope so. 

BMW has continued to innovate while growing fast and launching new cars. TV must do the same, or it will have to move to a different business model.

[John]

How many companies have such number of current eyepiece ranges ?:

- Plossls

- Delites

- Panoptic

- Delos

- Nagler (T4, T5, T6's)

- Ethos

- Zoom (well one anyway !)

Not to mention barlows, Powermates, Paracorrs, etc, etc.

I wonder if that is sustainable ?

I think there are a couple of things in the pipeline from Tele Vue which might be very interesting though. We will see ....

[Moonshane]

I wish they'd do a decent Delite zoom 7-14 mm

[swamp thing]

58 minutes ago, Highburymark said:

Good point about development costs Alan. In many respects the Televue business model is similar to BMW's

What???? 

Of all the companies to compare TV to. Don't remember Al Nagler producing eyepieces that warped and cracked like the cylinder heads on the 3 series etc  

I know he's made some not so great eyepieces but nothing like the turkeys that BMW have managed to produce. 

Anyway back on topic  

[Mark at Beaufort]

10 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

I wish they'd do a decent Delite zoom 7-14 mm

I agree Shane a nice Delite zoom would be fantastic. Perhaps we should ask the Nagler family to produce one.

[Timebandit]

52 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

I wish they'd do a decent Delite zoom 7-14 mm

 

40 minutes ago, Mark at Beaufort said:

I agree Shane a nice Delite zoom would be fantastic. Perhaps we should ask the Nagler family to produce one.

 

Good idea. But then again may as well go all the way and ask for a Ethos zoom? 

[John]

Apparently Al Nagler was working on a wide angle zoom sometime in the 1990's but it would have weighed around 3lbs and cost in excess of $1500 so the concept was not followed through.

 

[Highburymark]

1 hour ago, swamp thing said:

What???? 

Of all the companies to compare TV to. Don't remember Al Nagler producing eyepieces that warped and cracked like the cylinder heads on the 3 series etc  

I know he's made some not so great eyepieces but nothing like the turkeys that BMW have managed to produce. 

Anyway back on topic  

Second most valuable car brand in the world? 12th most valuable brand in the world?  

I'd rather spend my money on astronomy but I think they've produced the odd decent product along the way. Apologies for going off topic.

[Charic]

On 12/12/2016 at 17:30, John said:

What would be really significant to me would be for another brand to bring out an eyepiece that actually betters the Tele Vue equivalent in optical performance and significantly uncuts the price.[sic]

I think desire, expectation and reality came crashing down after buying my 1st Tele Vue Delos!
After all the hype, I expected more, much more from them?

True, I only have access to an f/6 scope, so I  may not  fully appreciate what the  ( f/4 tested )  Delois can offer, though it was my intention to own a much larger, faster scope,  in which to use the better corrected  Delos,  but the eyepieces arrived first, as they were reasonably cheap (used) but its someway off now, obtaining a larger scope, and after much contemplation, it looks like my f/6 Skyliner will remain. Therefore the present lineup of Delois, on my scope, with my eyes, only present me with a larger field of view, nothing spectacular, just a larger field,  and  considering their based on Ethos performance and quality, albeit at a smaller 72°afov, should they be much better, superior  than my old faithful 8mm BST Starguider, this is where my expectation was lost.

Their good, but at £300+ new,  the 8mm  Delos in comparison to my favourite 8mm ED Starguider  is just not worth that expense IMHO.
I'm still contemplating the future of my present lineup of Delois.  The 6,8 & 10mm are a suitable  for my scope, I doubt I`ll need the 3.5 and 4.5, and  I  wished the 12mm was  made available earlier. I've seen a few Delois recently, but folk are asking far more than I am willing to pay, I have the funds, time will tell, but do I/should I still consider buying more, if I'm still in doubts?  Also if there's more than one item ( a set )  I  will attempt to get the set ( BST - Revelation ) if it fits my requirements. It would be a  nice opportunity  therefore for someone in the future to buy a  Delos set,  If sell them?  but the way prices are now, they could still be an investment!

With regards to Johns statement,  the optical performance I perceive is no better with the TV/D, over the  BST/S  but the BST/S definitely undercuts the price, do I have a  significant winner?

Brand wise, no, its a Starguider? performance wise, its too close, except for the afov!
 

[Stu]

18 hours ago, swamp thing said:

I won't be jumping anywhere Nick  

I have neither of these eyepieces but I have used them both. I would say that although slightly better the TV is nowhere near being twice as good. Marginally better it is, twice as good, not a chance.

I should add that testing these in my scope is quite a strong test of an eyepieces quality as it is large and fast. The ES stands up very well indeed and is like a 100˚ Nagler (which is no slouch). In other words I believe the ES 100˚ eyepieces are bloody good, offering 95% of Ethos performance for around 1/2 the price is nothing short of phenomenal.

The next argument is price and that is not so straightforward...........

You cannot expect twice the performance by doubling your budget once a high standard has been achieved that is simply not possible and NEVER happens. Eg double your budget on a race car will it then lap twice as fast......of course not, you'll be lucky to shave a second or two off your lap times. Is it worth the extra seconds???? your call..........

I would conclude by saying if I was in the market for 100˚ eyepieces having used both.......... I would buy the ES. You get far more for your money IMO. And that comes from a TV user.  

Have fun out there  

That's lucky Steve, being somewhat 'financially challenged' vs previous times currently, and spending more on scopes than I should, I found myself missing widefield eps. No way could I afford TV currently, even though I would love to have them, so I now have an nice used 20mm ES100 and a 30mm ES 82. I considered the 25mm ES 100 but it's expensive and doesn't get good reviews.

I also have a Burgess Optical 40mm 70? for widest views but as it doesn't get much use I can't justify a 41mm Panoptic there. Much lighter and works well enough.

[alan potts]

11 hours ago, John said:

How many companies have such number of current eyepiece ranges ?:

- Plossls

- Delites

- Panoptic

- Delos

- Nagler (T4, T5, T6's)

- Ethos

- Zoom (well one anyway !)

Not to mention barlows, Powermates, Paracorrs, etc, etc.

I wonder if that is sustainable ?

I think there are a couple of things in the pipeline from Tele Vue which might be very interesting though. We will see ....

John,

I know you stated current but of course there was and maybe still is the 3mm Radian, or has that gone now as well. Despite what some have said down the years about colour caste, a dam good line of eyepieces with plenty of ER for glasses wearers. I still have the 4mm and use it as there still is not a wonderful selection at the low end of the market and they still get snapped up quickly on the s/h market. Even TV I feel have left this area a bit behind, there once was 3mm to 6mm Radians then 3.5mm, 4.5mm & 6mm in the shape of Delos, Nagler T6's and of course the two massive and expensive Ethos low enders, I thought the Delites may well make more inroads at the short end, maybe soon.

Alan

 

[Davesellars]

I think Televue have the short focal lengths pretty well covered TBH.  The Delite 3mm and 4mm is being produced.  Delos 3.5 and 4.5mm. Nagler 2.5 and 3.5 as well as the 3 to 6 zoom and of course the Ethos 3.7mm and 4.7mm.  Since Pentax seems to have left the market in this area and ES not producing such short focal lengths (only down to 4.7mm) do they have any other competitor in these ranges?

[F15Rules]

On 12/13/2016 at 15:39, alan potts said:

Going a little away from the sale discount but still on TV. Personally I like their eyepieces and as far as I am aware they developed all of the the ranges on the market that they sell today, the work behind this alone is costly and obviously is part of what you are paying for. I feel that ExSc Meade and all the others would have had nowhere near the same R&D expensne for what they market as I believe for the most part they copied to some degree.

When you look at eyepieces ExSc will have had to develope like the 25mm and 9mm 120 degree the costs are not a million miles away from what TeleVue are charging. Personally I will continue to buy TV but that is of course because I can, it is sad that not everyone can afford them or indeed may not want to.

Alan

I do agree that Tele Vue have been and are a real innovator in eyepiece design. I also agree that they deserve, as do all true innovators, to reap some reward for their investment and development costs. And I would say this applies today to their newer ranges such as Delos and Delite, even though the limited experience I had with a 5mm Delite was distinctly underwhelming...to be fair, I don't think the conditions over 3 sessions when I tried it helped, but the conditions were the same for all my eyepieces and other, much cheaper ones did as well or better on those nights.

What I can't fathom is why TVwould charge prices for their oldest (1980s) Plossl design which are so obviously extortionate, eg £143 for a 32mm Plossl, £120 for a 20mm plossl  - and over £200 for the 55mm plossl!! etc - they are undoubtedly good designs even now, but they have had over 30 years to recoup the above costs and still make a decent margin, and to me these prices smack of sheer profiteering. I don't know where the margin is going here, whether it's mainly to TV or to their distributors or both, but if I was new to the hobby and wanted to upgrade the bog standard poorish supplied plossls, I wouldn't even consider TV options at those prices - which is a real shame, as they are nice pieces - but 2 or 3 times the cost of BSTs etc which are pretty darn near as good, if not AS good IMHO.

Dave

 

[Timebandit]

 

Hi. I think many of you are just being tight with your cash chaps?

No only joking. I agree televues pricing could do with some explanation. And it's a shame that someone in the account department at televues or one of the stockists department accountants do not let the cat out of the bag on what the mark ups on these eyepieces actually are. If it's a reasonable mark up on both televues and stockists then fair enough, we all need to make a living and so I am sure customers would understand and be more sympathetic to the prices now being charged. But we just don't know, are these reasonable prices for eyepieces? Or are we just being taken advantage of by heavy mark ups on eyepieces?. Maybe someone out there has some insider knowledge they would like to disclose.

But one thing you must keep in mind is that televues make there eyepieces to work in very fast scopes. This is the demanding end of the market and scopes at F/4 really do test eyepieces performance, build and optics to the limit. Therefore for any one who wants a sharp eyepiece that is designed and I understand guarantee to work down to f/4 then televues are the eyepiece to go for. People with slower scopes may not necessarily see an improvement over a half decent eyepiece from another manufacturer. But at f/4 then the difference IMO should be and will be noticeable with televues.  

I also consider a televues eyepiece a final eyepiece. What I mean by this is that if you buy a televues eyepiece, plossl or nagler, Ethos ect then IMO optically it is probably the best out there(apart from Pentax?) . So it's the type of eyepiece you do not need to upgrade or change, it's a eyepiece for life in my opinion optically and build quality. You may change your scope,but the chances are if you have televues you will not change them (unless you wish to go to a wider fov or eye relief)as they will produce excellent quality views in basically any scope. So a one in a lifetime purchase and therefore is that worth paying a premium for?   

You pay your money and takes your choice☺ 

[Moonshane]

Surely the nature of a business concern is is to develop customer loyalty,  offer good quality products and to make as much money as possible.  Televue do all of this despite most of the people I know never or rarely buying new.

I actually plan to buy new in the future as i am now getting closer to my 'final' set plus i genuinely wish to support the company.

[Charic]

Moonshane......... When I started out (2013) TeleVue were a viable affordable brand at the time, they were/are  the best,  according to the reports I read back then,  and if I had invested in them,  I too would  probably be singing from the same hymn sheet today,  Though I'm sort of glad I have taken the path that has preceded me so-far.

Tele Vue even advise me  on eyepieces suitable  for scopes of 6" to 10" consisting of,  High power  6 or 8mm Delos, Medium power 14mm  Delos  and the 35mm Panoptic.

I have secured the 6,8 and the  10mm  courtesy of yourself, I fancied the 12mm  and I`m happy enough for now with my 32mm Panaview.

So if  another Delos appears, either 12, 14 or  17.3mm  and if the price is within my remit, I will buy ?  That will be my 'set' but only for the fact of the 72°afov, not the overall performance!
If I get to view a Delos through a 12 or 10", the situation may change yet again. I`m open minded and have cash ready!

 

[Paz]

After quite a long time observing with a range of EP's and thinking about all of the issues about value for money, quality, etc that have been mentioned above I went for Televues for my main scope (f4.6) and spent a long time hunting them down.

I think all of the comments shared are valid and there is no contradiction between them - for example ES are much better value for money but Televue are slightly better, and the difference in quality shows up more as the focal length of your scope gets more demanding, as your own observing ability and expectations get more demanding, and when the quality of the viewing conditions allow high quality EP's to show what they can do. 

As has also been said there are different measures of and attitudes to value and I personally am very happy - the days I go out observing I look forward to with excitement like it's Christmas and I come in from sessions having had a good time and without wondering "...what if I had a [insert supposedly overpriced eyepiece of choice here]...". I am retired from the second-hand-eyepiece-buying-circuit as I am set up for the long term and there is nowhere else to go in terms of quality. But this does not make me "right" this is just what suits me.

Although they are expensive compared to the competition top end eyepieces are not expensive if you compare them to other hobbies. For example you could easily spend the price of a top of the range Televue eyepiece on a single set of tyres if you are into fast cars, and then you have to throw them away when they're worn out and that money is gone forever whereas an eyepiece would last you for years and even then you could sell it on for a fair sum anytime you want to. I understand that not everyone is prepared to pay so much for such things but evidently there are enough people out there who are.

Most people who are into astronomy, whatever their take on the price/quality issue, are thoughtful people who know how they like to enjoy a hobby - there is plenty of room for all the different takes on what gear to buy and what makes for good value.

[alan potts]

15 hours ago, F15Rules said:

I do agree that Tele Vue have been and are a real innovator in eyepiece design. I also agree that they deserve, as do all true innovators, to reap some reward for their investment and development costs. And I would say this applies today to their newer ranges such as Delos and Delite, even though the limited experience I had with a 5mm Delite was distinctly underwhelming...to be fair, I don't think the conditions over 3 sessions when I tried it helped, but the conditions were the same for all my eyepieces and other, much cheaper ones did as well or better on those nights.

What I can't fathom is why TVwould charge prices for their oldest (1980s) Plossl design which are so obviously extortionate, eg £143 for a 32mm Plossl, £120 for a 20mm plossl  - and over £200 for the 55mm plossl!! etc - they are undoubtedly good designs even now, but they have had over 30 years to recoup the above costs and still make a decent margin, and to me these prices smack of sheer profiteering. I don't know where the margin is going here, whether it's mainly to TV or to their distributors or both, but if I was new to the hobby and wanted to upgrade the bog standard poorish supplied plossls, I wouldn't even consider TV options at those prices - which is a real shame, as they are nice pieces - but 2 or 3 times the cost of BSTs etc which are pretty darn near as good, if not AS good IMHO.

Dave

 

I do tend to agree with some of what you say and I am taken by what you report on the 5mm De-lite, about the only one I really would like. Even though I once had 32 TV eyepieces in a pile of cases I will not say they are all brilliant, to this day I am still somewhat disappointed with the 41mm Panoptic which I bought for my 12 inch Meade SC and its 3m plus focal length. This eyepiece vignettes with any diagonal I have tried and only does not when you view straight through the scope sitting on the floor, not something I like to these days. I am rather annoyed with myself that I got rid of the massive 40mm Meade SWA which in the F10 scope preformed very well indeed, TV fever must have kicked in to make me sell it. I also agree the Plossl range is rather costly but I do feel some of this could be exchange rates but by no means all. The 55mm is also an eyepiece that I once had and a superb one at that, it was only that with Ethos in the case it always gave me the feeling of looking down a drinking straw when I used it. Even though I have the 11mm and 15mm I don't find the same as I almost always use these for planets.

Alan

[niallk]

I've an ES20 100°, and in my f/4.5 scope, it exhibits significant false colour and distortion and in the outer ~10° annulus of the tfov (with/without Paracorr2).  On some targets like Jupiter and the moon it is very noticeable indeed, whereas on DSOs not so much, naturally.

I dont have a 21E to compare against, but I don't see this image degradation effect in the Ethos EPs I do own.

Not even going to attempt to say whether something is worth it or not, just reporting honestly what I see

[Timebandit]

2 hours ago, niallk said:

I've an ES20 100°, and in my f/4.5 scope, it exhibits significant false colour and distortion and in the outer ~10° annulus of the tfov (with/without Paracorr2).  On some targets like Jupiter and the moon it is very noticeable indeed, whereas on DSOs not so much, naturally.

I dont have a 21E to compare against, but I don't see this image degradation effect in the Ethos EPs I do own.

Not even going to attempt to say whether something is worth it or not, just reporting honestly what I see

 

You might be upsetting the Explore Scientific fan club there( you may need to duck soon☺) . But if that's what you have seen through your eyes then you should let others know.

I have said before I feel televues prices are getting hard to justify. But there is no denying IMO they are at of the top of the tree in quality optics and build, especially true in fast scopes f/4. The Explore scientific may be good but the televues seem great . And let's face it you cannot expect to pay the prices of a 100d explore scientific and expect it to be as good as an ethos. Therefore this seems to show the optical quality of the Ethos is better to its explore scientific rival , but the optical quality improvement certainly is not on par with the percentage of price increase between the two. Therefore if you want good go for the cheaper explore scientific 100d eyepiece, but if you want the best you will have to pay the premium and go  Ethos.

[niallk]

9 minutes ago, Timebandit said:

 

You might be upsetting the Explore Scientific fan club there( you may need to duck soon☺) .

Certainly not wishing to upset anyone!  Dont get me wrong: the ES20 is impressive and I picked it up at a great price: hey it tipped me over the edge to get some more 100° EPs ... from my Nagler T6's which I will stick my neck out and say that imho I do think represent remarkable quality and value for 82° in a compact and lightweight form factor in a fast dob.

Whether they are worth it is a good question: would I have been better buying a widefield refractor companion scope instead for the money? Maybe...!!  If I swap from a 100° EP to a Nagler, do I miss that extra fov - you betcha!! I'm now ruined: I love 100°, and can see out to the field stop. Sheesh. If I didn't I would have sold on and bought a frac.