I'm really disheartened, time to sell up?

[MARS1960]

12 minutes ago, gnomus said:

It can be a frustrating business that is for sure.  

A couple of things stood out from your response to Sara's helpful post.  You say that focus was good and then you tightened up the focuser and had out of focus subs.  This suggests that you are getting some shift when locking focus.  This can happen.  It might be best to run another 10 secs sub after locking focus to check that you are still AOK.  If the shift was consistent then you may be able to get to a point where you can anticipate how much 'out' you need to be before locking down.  Or perhaps you are focussing soon after set up, before the scope has had a chance to cool down properly.  

Do you use Bahtinov Grabber?  (Sara put me onto that program some time ago and it was very helpful.  Sometimes the eye deceives.)  You will have to check focus regularly - maybe every hour or so.

You have some elongation at 10 mins.  I am unfamiliar with your guide camera.  Is it attached to a finderscope?  Could you have flexure?  It might be helpful to see some guide graphs.  If you can get pinpoints at 5 mins, why not try imaging some brighter targets at 5 mins until you get your mojo back?

You say you achieve 'perfect' polar alignment.  How are you getting that?  Many folks who set up and tear down each night are finding the Polemaster a useful gadget.  Indeed some of us with a permanent set up are finding it useful too.

Guiding can be hit or miss and is seeing dependent.  It is possible that you just had a 'wobblier' night than it looked.  Have you read Steve's book?

80 minutes is not a lot of data.  Someone else suggested that you may be trying to pull out more than the data will allow.  Look at how much data people like Sara collect before trying to process.  One thing to try to get out of might be the need to complete one or more images per night.  Try collecting (say) 6-10 hours of data on one object over 2-3 nights and see how much easier processing becomes.  When I was setting up and tearing down every night I would leave the camera attached to the scope so that the orientation didn't change.

 

Absolutely on the first point, that is exactly what i will be doing from now on.

No bahtinov grabber, i generally avoid using a laptop hence the Lacerta MGEN guider which incidentally it is hooked up to my old SW finder so flexure is a strong possibility.

Next session depending on target will be 5min subs max just as an exercise.

Before i bought anything i bought Steve's book

Polar alignment is not a problem as the tripod/mount is fixed on the patio, polar scope is regularly calibrated and i use polarfinder, problem is i should polar align every session and not every other session so that is now duly noted.

 

You last point is something that i started thinking about very recently but i'm unsure how to align 2 or more nights data on top of each other without going down the laptop/software route.

[Stub Mandrel]

42 minutes ago, MARS1960 said:

You last point is something that i started thinking about very recently but i'm unsure how to align 2 or more nights data on top of each other without going down the laptop/software route.

If you use DSS load each night's data as a separate group (tabs at the bottom of the screen)

[MARS1960]

2 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

If you use DSS load each night's data as a separate group (tabs at the bottom of the screen)

Brilliant, thanks Neil.

[MattJenko]

Here is my little effort at your data. To me it seems like the focus is definitely off and I reckon gnomus has it spot on in that the focus changes when the focus is being locked. Also, it seems that the flattener spacing isn't right, as there is edge distortions heading towards each corner, so it is not tilt or something like that, or it might be that the scope can't illumnate a full frame properly either, as not many can.

The ASI120M is a tiny chip compared to your DSLRs, so I am not surprised it didn't work as a DSO Cam, it is not what those are for really.

[HansRoaming]

On 02/09/2016 at 18:23, MARS1960 said:

I Didn't take any calibration frames Neil.

Darks i was told are a not needed with a 60D ( can't remember the technological reason why) i assumed flats were just to remove dust and vignetting.

As for 10min subs with a DSLR, i could't agree more, it is bound to create a lot of noise and i did wonder about taking maybe lots of 2min subs instead of a few 10min subs.

Also i;m a stickler for focus but i MUST remember to check it again once i've locked it off.

I'm still learning so take my advice as appropriate but I found this talk by Craig Stark to be gold along with 'Every Photon Counts' of course. I like to build a library of a 100 darks for each setting, taken by putting my camera in a freezer bag into a cooler bag with an ice pack and then using a food thermometer to see when it's roughly equal to 10c which is about the temps I'll be taking pics over the next couple of months.

When post processing I use Nebulosity and when I do an align I save each file then when combining use a standard deviation filter and hopefully with the large number of darks I get rid of a lot of system noise and also random noise, works a treat on sat trails etc. As people have mentioned take lots of subs, I use a QHY-5L which is a planetary cam and with narrow band filters meaning 8 min subs is noisy so have to get obsessive about it.

If you're not taking darks then I suspect that is causing a lot of your issues, enjoy the video.

 

[wxsatuser]

What ISO were you using and where was the in camera histogram peak?

 

[PeterCPC]

Bit late to this party and you have had lots of useful tips to improve matters. I think that if you get an astro modified Canon you will notice a HUGE difference - I did and have not looked back. Keep at it - it does get easier as you learn.

Peter

[Stub Mandrel]

9 hours ago, HansRoaming said:

I'm still learning so take my advice as appropriate but I found this talk by Craig Stark to be gold along with 'Every Photon Counts' of course. I like to build a library of a 100 darks for each setting, taken by putting my camera in a freezer bag into a cooler bag with an ice pack and then using a food thermometer to see when it's roughly equal to 10c which is about the temps I'll be taking pics over the next couple of months.

 

 

I must admit my darks appear to improve things (i have done comparisons) but not in an earth-shattering way. I have done the camera in the fridge (5 c) trick.

1 hour ago, PeterCPC said:

I think that if you get an astro modified Canon you will notice a HUGE difference

I found this to be true, but the Heart nebula is still a challenging target. I think it needs a lot of data

[PaulB]

I suspect your problems are in DSS.

If you have not already done this. You need to open DSS and select Settings-Raw Fits DDP settings and select the camera you are using. That way you will see your stacked image in true colour.

Also you can follow the many tutorials on the web to help you.

Like this one

https://markwalkerscreenwriting.wordpress.com/deep-sky-stacker-tutorial/

And this.

 

http://www.budgetastro.net/deep-sky-stacker.html

 

 

[MARS1960]

18 hours ago, wxsatuser said:

What ISO were you using and where was the in camera histogram peak?

 

1600 ISO and about 30%. I think a modded dslr, less exposure time and more subs would have helped.

[MARS1960]

6 hours ago, PaulB said:

I suspect your problems are in DSS.

If you have not already done this. You need to open DSS and select Settings-Raw Fits DDP settings and select the camera you are using. That way you will see your stacked image in true colour.

Also you can follow the many tutorials on the web to help you.

Like this one

https://markwalkerscreenwriting.wordpress.com/deep-sky-stacker-tutorial/

And this.

 

http://www.budgetastro.net/deep-sky-stacker.html

 

 

Thanks for that, i've never done that but i will in future.

[MARS1960]

10 hours ago, PeterCPC said:

Bit late to this party and you have had lots of useful tips to improve matters. I think that if you get an astro modified Canon you will notice a HUGE difference - I did and have not looked back. Keep at it - it does get easier as you learn.

Peter

True, i should not have sold my 60Da.

[wxsatuser]

10 hours ago, MARS1960 said:

1600 ISO and about 30%. I think a modded dslr, less exposure time and more subs would have helped.

That seems ok

A lot more subs will help,  8 is really not enough, 25 or more will help with noise.

Get the dithering going, make sure your PA and focus is spot on and I'm sure your get better images.

[alacant]

Hi. Also make sure that you are comparing like with like. Many of the snaps posted at sgl (even here in the beginners section) are taken with equipment costing tens of thousands of €uros with night after night of frames which have spent hour upon month being processed. It is rare to see a shot posted from a non modified camera or one which doesn't have that make-it-look-like-hubble algorithm applied: astro photos minus the stars. Fashion!

Anyway, I think you've done great. Keep what you've got. Get focused. Get more snaps to stack and choose targets which don't need a modified camera. HTH and clear skies.

[James]

Don't give up!!! I'm no expert but I had a little play with your tiff file and there is data there - just not enough to stretch it too far. I've attached a quick process which I've stretched further than I normally would.

Others have given some pretty good pointers and I agree with them and you need more subs. Lots more. The more you get the better the noise is controlled and the harder you can push your data and the more you can tease out

As others have said the focus isn't spot on and you have some drift and it also looks like your camera isn't quite the right distance from the back of the scope (your stars are radiating outward) - @MattJenko has covered that. If you can sort those things out, then get lots of subs you'll be away

James

 

[carastro]

I haven't read through all the replies above but two things stand out for me:

Firstly if you're using an unmodified DSLR you won't get such good data than you would with a modified one. 

Secondly you said you did not take any calibration frames.  Flats are essential to getting a good image and you really should do them they are not difficult with a DSLR.  Either use a not too bright light source (put a piece of typing paper or a white piece of flat cloth over the aperture to even the light, use AV and 100iso and the camera will take the right length flat.  Or if you can leave the camera attached to the scope (i,e don't move it) you can do the flats the following day pointing at the sky (dimming the light down again.  

Bias also as these help to apply the flats, you only need one set and can re-use them.  Darks will help to remove hot pixels, I never found them much use with thermal noise with a DSLR.  

Of course things like focus and PA are also important, but if you can see the quality coming through it will make you less disheartened.

Carole 

[Astrosurf]

Never give up; never surrender! I know how you feel. I recently lost my astromojo and was very depressed. But I have a lovely astro group who are always very supportive. Have you thought of joining one?

When I use my modded DSLR, I rarely do more than 5-min subs. 8 if I feel confident and it's a cold night. ISO 1600. I always do darks and have found they make a remarkable difference. I don't use flats as I use the GradientXTerminator plugin in Photoshop. Some hate it but I think it's amazing.

In PS, to reduce the red noise and to bring out colour, I do a copy layer, convert it to Colour Blending Mode and add a Gaussian Blur. You can also push up the Saturation on this layer. I can't remember exactly what I did though!

Please keep going. We're here to help.

Alexxx

[MARS1960]

Thank you James and Carole, all taken on board.

We are supposed to be lucky enough to get one or two clear nights this week so i'm going take everyones advice, put it into practice and see if i can capture something worthy of posting.

Watch this space (pun intended :))

Thank you all very much for your help. 

 

[PatrickGilliland]

When it is all going wrong switch it all of and go to bed.  Wait a few days then go through the process slowly and carefully working back up to your intended position.  Without wanting to sound obvious when learning/having difficulties write down (process flow or steps) what you do and keep it with you.  I have a workflow on my obsy wall that i will follow.  Ironically once all working it may be months before you need to set up again and thats enough time for me to forget.  Let's face it half the time its dark, you are tired and trying to concentrate on things that are new.  Write down what you do, follow it, edit it as required for better result and you have you guide.  I know from painful experience you think you have done everything only to remember after the event you did forget 1 thing.

Once you have this (it make actually take a while to finalise) you can be sure if something is not working there is a actual problem rather than a missed step.  Once i nailed this i was able to set up my gear (which has included carrying an AP 1200 out to the garden and setting up from scratch each night for many months) in 15 minutes night after night with no issue from PA to acquisition.

As stated if it was easy the would be no challenge and thus no reward when you do master.  Do, record, repeat.  Will all take shape soon enough. 

Paddy

[Astrosurf]

Excellent advice, Paddy.

[bottletopburly]

Had a dabble in startools

[Shand359]

There is definitely potential there. I'm no expert when it comes to AP since I have had my own fair few number of "throw in the towel" moments but this image you took isn't half bad. Yes the focus is off and its a bit noisey but these are things that you learn to fix as you improve...... Keep going, you'd regret it if you don't...