Explore Scientific eyepieces - get them while you can in the UK

[alan potts]

John,

If you are following the thread, How do Televue prices match up to the same set of rules, I believe TV is an American Company so one would expect them to cost more exported. Is that roughly correct or am I barking up the wrong tree.

What annoys me is FLO tried to do something about this and they are just not given a chance with discounts offered out to other European outlets. I have never bought anything from them as yet but I feel sorry that they tried and then came up against a brick wall.

Alan.

[John]

I've not done any sort of comprehensive survey Alan but a quick look at US v's UK prices for a few models seems to show that Tele Vue are something like 20%-25% more expensive here while a similar "quick and dirty" comparison for Explore Scientific seems to show a difference of 65%-75%.

[alan potts]

Very interesting indeed John, even if it was 30% different there is clearly a big difference in the percentages. You know that I have gone the way of the green and black and some of the ones I have bought new I have had from TS in Germany at around 7-10% less than I have bought them from Telescope house, though they too have sold me Delos for less than TS when I have ordered a few things. You could almost make a case within Europe ( I know I am talking of two outlets ) of swings and roundabouts.

That however would not appear to be what is happenning with Ex Sc products, it would seem that dark forces are at play. The plot thickens!

Alan.

[russ.will]

The hand wringing over UK prices only seems to surface when ES have one of their summer sales. The problem this time is that the 'sale' seems to have extended ad infinitum this time and some US dealers have even stopped listing the RRP altogether. If it was just a case of a short hunting season, then the UK/EU prices, which seem to have a lot more to do with the RRP, wouldn't look so out of kilter. On that basis, the Optical-Systems/ES.eu price looks very competitive and will look even more so, when the 'sale' ends as it surely, eventually, will.

The issue is that up to now, there has only been one UK stockist, who pitched their pricing much as you'd expect - ie, usefully below TV, but just above everything else. With no local competition they were free to do so. Clearly, the extended US sales have changed their opinion on the viability of stocking ES as single, small, high street dealer who necessarily can't survive on internet margins.

My main beef about the complaints issuing forth here, is that they assume all products in the US are cheaper and that the UK is always the poor cousin. Not so.

If you were an American, you would probably having a whinge about the (discounted) $2229 for an Orion AZ/EQ-G before local sales tax, wondering why a tiddly little market like the UK can get it (the SW AZ-EQ 6) for £50 less including VAT. A GSO Photo Visual Coma corrector in the US before sales tax, is the same price as the Altaire Astro badged item in the UK including VAT. Etc, etc. The fact is that every product in every maket place, is subject to that market's economies of scale and charged at the rate the market will support, subject to the local governments import tarifs and sales taxes, plus whatever the importer/dealer needs to make. T'was ever thus and ever will be.

We now live in a Global market place. Maybe we should be more thankful that we aren't stuck with paying an uncompetitive local price and can cast our UK Pounds in whichever direction we wish, when a deal takes out fancy. The inertia of these economics will, in time, bring markets closer to parity, unless you're Celestron, who appear show us an altogether less attractive reality.

Russell

[John]

The hand wringing over UK prices only seems to surface when ES have one of their summer sales. The problem this time is that the 'sale' seems to have extended ad infinitum this time and some US dealers have even stopped listing the RRP altogether. If it was just a case of a short hunting season, then the UK/EU prices, which seem to have a lot more to do with the RRP, wouldn't look so out of kilter. On that basis, the Optical-Systems/ES.eu price looks very competitive and will look even more so, when the 'sale' ends as it surely, eventually, will.....

I based the % differences I posted above on non-sale ES prices in the US. If I'd used the sale reductions the difference would have been even greater.

[russ.will]

Fine. Care to present an argument at to why US consumers are paying more for the products I listed? I'm pretty sure nobody has an economic argument for these cases.

If Ex Sc are behind their sales targets and faced with writing the cost of inventory down at the tax year end, then extending the 'sale' to shift inventory makes economic sense. Next year, they'll forward order less stock and prices will hold up for longer and then we'll be suffering muliple threads on 'Do you remember when Ex Sc cost....'

Further more - Care to comment on why TV EPs are "20-25%" more on this side of the pond, given that they are far eastern sourced too? Ex Sc are being hung out as the bad boys, but it seems to me that US/UK price differentials over the long term seem to be more obvious with some manufacturers than others. Ex Sc drift into view with their sale prices, but the likes of TV and Celestron, seem more 'managed'?

Yes, the current US v UK Ex Sc price differential is incongruous, but I think there are bigger drums to beat.

Russell

[John]

Fine. Care to present an argument at to why US consumers are paying more for the products I listed? I'm pretty sure nobody has an economic argument for these cases.

If Ex Sc are behind their sales targets and faced with writing the cost of inventory down at the tax year end, then extending the 'sale' to shift inventory makes economic sense. Next year, they'll forward order less stock and prices will hold up for longer and then we'll be suffering muliple threads on 'Do you remember when Ex Sc cost....'

Further more - Care to comment on why TV EPs are "20-25%" more on this side of the pond, given that they are far eastern sourced too? Ex Sc are being hung out as the bad boys, but it seems to me that US/UK price differentials over the long term seem to be more obvious with some manufacturers than others. Ex Sc drift into view with their sale prices, but the likes of TV and Celestron, seem more 'managed'?

Yes, the current US v UK Ex Sc price differential is incongruous, but I think there are bigger drums to beat.

Russell

No Russell, I don't "care to comment". I have no economic arguments to make. I just did a little looking at some prices and posted what I found here.

If you have some theories by all means post them up

[JamesF]

Yes, the current US v UK Ex Sc price differential is incongruous, but I think there are bigger drums to beat.

Certainly there are, but they aren't what this specific thread is about. That there are greater issues elsewhere is not a reason to leave this one unanswered.

James

[russ.will]

No Russell, I don't "care to comment". I have no economic arguments to make. I just did a little looking at some prices and posted what I found here.

If you have some theories by all means post them up

Sorry - Upon reading that back, it came across more as demand, than the genuine inquiry intended.

Russell

[russ.will]

Certainly there are, but they aren't what this specific thread is about. That there are greater issues elsewhere is not a reason to leave this one unanswered.

James

That's sort of my point. You can't really discuss ES in isolation. Their global pricing strategy (or lack of) has to be viewed against the backdrop of the market as a whole and as you say, there are far worse transgressors out there.

Russell

[FLO]

Needless to say I have some thoughts on the subject of pricing and ordering products abroad ?

Regarding Celestron prices, not all Celestron products are supplied direct to the UK. Some come from, or are channelled through, the US. Celestron have also appointed a UK importer/distributer to hold and distribute Celestron products. The importer/distributer must also setup and run a service centre in the UK, be responsible for the general UK marketing of Celestron products and for appointing and managing a dealer network. Those costs are not easy for retailers or customers to quantify so we cannot say whether the increase in retail price is appropriate but we do understand and accept Celestron's decision to appoint and support a UK importer/distributer. As a Celestron dealer we can and do ensure promotions and savings are passed on to UK customers (not all dealers do this and most 'never' did before we entered the market).

Celestron aside, whenever possible we source products direct from the manufacturer and set retail prices based on the 'real' cost of importing (delivery, duty and UK tax). In doing so we have done more than any other UK dealer to end over-pricing in the astro retail market. Some might remember the high prices charged for Moonlite and ADM products before we became their UK dealer, also dew-heater tapes and even the humble Telrad (priced around £50 before we offered them at £35). Occasionally our prices will be out of sync due to currency fluctations but that can at times benefit you. Consider our Atik prices, recently we reduced ours as the €-£ moved in our favour (we pay for Atik in €). We were the only UK dealer to do this (some have since responded with similar prices).

Interestingly it is currently cheaper for German astronomers to buy Atik products here in the UK. And not only Atik, the Skywatcher NEQ6 PRO for example is over £50 cheaper in the UK and the new Skywatcher AZ EQ6-GT over £200 cheaper. But despite this German astronomers rarely shop in the UK and I respect them for that. Their culture is different to ours, they are more aware of the need to support their home economy than us Brits. A German astronomer would not boast about how he saved a few € or dodged tax by ordering abroad, if he did he would be met with the same level of disdain we reserve for benefits cheats. Our children are born in UK hospitals, educated in UK schools and if our house catches fire it'll be a UK fire engine that hoses down the flames. So where possible our UK-£ should benefit the UK economy.

Incidentally, SGL's admin deserve some credit for our success in reducing UK prices. 'Rip-off-Britain' threads used to be common here at SGL so I promised them (back when FLO was made forum sponsor) that FLO would do whatever she could to end over-pricing. We have done this and more.

Steve

[FLO]

PS: Please be gentle with ES because they have some very nice products and I would like to think, if they adjust their pricing model, they will still be happy to sell through us

[ExploreScientificEurope]

Hi all,

o.k. - this sounds familiar. Those treads go on forever in german fori (but not with ES on focus), so I will make this short:

1) Don´t compare promotional pricing - It does not work. I would love to get the 20mm 100° for the price they are selling in the US. Sometimes very big orders blow up in your face and you are left with A LOT overstock that you have to get rid off at any price. If you have the chance to buy a 20mm at 299 - go for it. Next week we will start a promotion for the Telescope Drive Master for 999€ - try to get this price in the US!

2) Wages, taxes and marketing costs are much higher in Europe. Thus the price reflects the higher costs that happen. It´s that simple. Compare the % price differences (for regular products) between US and Europe for a few mayor brands and compare them to the price difference for ES. Then you will see that you are barking up the wrong tree. I´m not driving a Mercedes, but a 15 year old Suzuki - we are not making a fortune here by sucking the money out of poor british customers ;-).

Clear skies

Tassilo Bohm

[John]

Sorry - Upon reading that back, it came across more as demand, than the genuine inquiry intended.

Russell

No problem - I probably over-reacted, I was bit tired last night

[fredster]

PS: Please be gentle with ES because they have some very nice products and I would like to think, if they adjust their pricing model, they will still be happy to sell through us

Definitely do not scare off ES. I love my ES eyepieces and one day would like to replace some of my 82's with a 100 or two. Steve, are you saying there's a chance FLO will take on the ES account?

[crazyjedi]

Definitely do not scare off ES. I love my ES eyepieces and one day would like to replace some of my 82's with a 100 or two. Steve, are you saying there's a chance FLO will take on the ES account?

Same goes for me! I would rather they were easier to get hold of not import only which seems to be the way they are going

[alan potts]

As someone from ExSc is clearly reading this thread it would be nice to tell them there is some interest in other eyepieces for this 3 inch diagonal if they would ever consider making them. For example a larger (42mm) UWA 82 degree EP and maybe a much longer (60mm) 68 degree eyepiece or (70mm) 60 degree Super Ploosl. The figures in brackets are ball park figures of pure guesswork.

I don't believe the company would ever make the Dow Jones 30 index with this type of production but you would have at least one extra customer.

Alan.

[mert]

I had a chance to use my ES 20mm 100 degree last week, stunning eyepiece and lovely views, big Jupiter looked incredible.

Sent mobile

[Doug]

That it I can't take it no more I must have the 20mm 100 fov- theads like Merts , stunning eyepiece and lovely views, big Jupiter looked incredible.

i'm like a child that watches TV and a advertisment comes on

[FLO]

Definitely do not scare off ES. I love my ES eyepieces and one day would like to replace some of my 82's with a 100 or two. Steve, are you saying there's a chance FLO will take on the ES account?

Same goes for me! I would rather they were easier to get hold of not import only which seems to be the way they are going

We would like to offer ES products but I don't think ES and FLO's business models are compatible. ES have their own retail outlet which will always be first for deals and promotions, that could leave us with over-priced stock. We can match ES store prices (on non-promo items) but US dealers have access to different promotions and lower prices, which we definitely would not be able to match. The comments in this thread suggest we will be tarred with a rip-off-Britain reputation if we don't offer prices in-line with the US. It would not be true (ES have themselves acknowledged the low margins) but we can understand people drawing that conclusion. We have spent several years building a reputation for fair prices and don't want to see it tarnished.

Considering ES' current focus on retailing direct and the large price difference between US and UK pricing, I think we must decline. Sorry.

ES is a young company so things might change, we hope they do

HTH,

Steve

[JamesF]

Considering ES' current focus on retailing direct and the large price difference between US and UK pricing, I think we must decline. Sorry.

Seems like the right decision to me. Given that they don't retail direct in the UK I'd have thought that pairing up with FLO would make a lot of sense, but if that's not the way they want to run their business then that's not the way they want to run their business. I wouldn't even expect FLO to sell as cheaply as in the US. Just a price that made the US price look unattractive for the hassle would have been nice.

Hey ho. Onwards and upwards.

James

[alan potts]

FLO,

I am not party to all that was discussed but I have read your comments though-out this thread and I would suggest no one can say you didn't try.

Keep up the good work,

Alan.

[Doug]

I took your advise Simon

I brought the E/S 20mm 100fov I will let you know what I think of it soon as the weather changes

if it's anything like the 9mm I will be happy, does anyone out there have the 14mm that uses it on a 8" SCT or a 12" dob and can compair it to a Televue eyepiece

many thanks

[John]

I took your advise Simon

I brought the E/S 20mm 100fov I will let you know what I think of it soon as the weather changes

if it's anything like the 9mm I will be happy, does anyone out there have the 14mm that uses it on a 8" SCT or a 12" dob and can compair it to a Televue eyepiece

many thanks

I'm going to be taking delivery of an ES 20 / 100 shortly and will compare it to my Nagler Type5 20mm. I'll post the results although my scopes are a bit of a tougher test than an SCT.

[Doug]

Congratulation John I had a felling you could not resist

I will try it against my 22mm Nagler and we can compair notes I'm sure there are others out there that can do this as well

I would still like to know about the 14mm 100fov

clear skies