Why a Visual Observer should not try to take Photographs

[MalcolmM]

OK, so this a mixture of imaging and observational, but I am a visual observer and I was intending to do a good visual session. That, and my approach to imaging would probably offend the real imagers! It's also a lesson on how not to do astronomy 🙂 Laurel and Hardy could have done a better job!

A couple of days ago it was looking like it was going to be a clear moonless night. So under a blue clear afternoon sky, I thought I would do a double; try some imaging and visual at the same time. I generally take one picture a year. I do not do it seriously. So a rough polar alignment, an unmodified DSLR attached to the back of a scope, and fairly short subs does for me.

For the first time in ages, I was able to prepare, so I put the scopes out at sixish to cool, and had time to get the rig ready to take some pictures. I attached my camera to the back of my FS60CB, did a test focus on some distant trees and locked it. I attached all the bits, charged the camera and USB battery pack (for the mount), didn't think I needed to adjust the polar alignment from the last time, dec should be fine, just a rough tweak in RA. I preprogrammed the intervalvometer for 40 shots of 40 seconds. I was ready. All I had to do was point and click! I had taken a picture of Markarian's Chain a couple of years ago, only 20 second subs and where you could see most of the galaxies, I thought I could double the exposure and get more detail and more galaxies. Generally 20 seconds gives no appreciable drift with the rough polar aligning. The Mewlon was also out and cooling. I was going to star hop to Markarian's Chain and see how much I could see. To this end I had created a crib sheet on my phone in order to help me star hop there, and provide a 'tour' of the area.

I was ready! Or so I thought!

I went out at 10ish thinking an hour or so should do it before coming back in and getting into bed before my partner fell asleep (she had her first day back at work after Easter the next day). First off, rough polar alignment. It was miles off, I couldn't see Polaris, all I could see was the wall of the house. Ah, the scope was too low to see over the house. I'll just move it a couple of feet. Move the tripod, that's better, now I can eyeball Polaris. Still way off though. Then I remembered I had sent the mount back for tightening up a bit of backlash and had had to adjust it way down to fit the packaging. So much for my preparation. However, no bother, a few turns on the dec screw and we're in business.

So far so good. Now to adjust the focus. To do this, I point at a dim star, turn on the LCD on the back of the camera and zoom right in. I then simply try to minimise the size of the star in the LCD. This goes well, so now try to find Markarian's Chain. It is in a fairy blank part of the sky so even with the finder, in my light polluted skies, it can be a bit tricky. Finder? What finder? In all my preparations I had forgotten to attach the finder (normally the 60CB plus a 28mm Erfle has no need for a finder and it makes the scope even more portable than it already is). So back inside, rummaging around all the bits trying to find the finder, the correct screws, and the correct size allen key. Thankfully my partner is still reading, she's not asleep yet!

Only by the grace of God did I not loose one of the screws down a drain. It dropped, it rolled, and it stopped 1cm short of ruining my evening totally. With the finder attached, it needed to be aligned now. "Bother", or words to that effect! Back inside, rummaging around for micro screwdriver, partner still reading (thank goodness), no she's not, she's fallen asleep, book in hand, light still on. Or she was untill I tripped into the coffee table! It's going well! So much for my preparation!

Back to finding Markarian's chain. I'm using my phone crib sheet and the finder to try and work from Vindemiatrix. Upside down and left to right, you just gotta love star hopping. I get to a blank bit of sky in the finder that I think might be close and I'm sure to recognise some of the star shapes from the crib sheet. A quick 10 second exposure and ... nothing. Not one star! Lens cap definitely off, intervalvometer definitely set for 40 seconds (and I interrupt it after 10). Try again a couple of times before remembering Einstein's famous quote and start to think what else might be wrong. Eventually I remembered the 'bulb' setting on the camera. So much for my prearation! A 1/1000 second exposure might just be a little to quick.

A lot of fiddling later and I was pointing at the right place. I think! My crib sheet seems to bear no resemblace to what I'm seeing. Very little is visible with a 10 second shot. So I give it 40 seconds and wow ... enormous star trails. Is the mount on? Has the polar alignment shifted? Everything looked OK. Maybe 40 seconds was just too much; I had never taken such long exposures before. I'm getting fed up (as you, the reader, probably is too!) so I go back to 20 second subs and just let it go. I want to do some visual observing.

I start at Denebola and hop across to M65 and M66. It's at this point I remember I usually have the 60CB dual mounted with the Mewlon and use it, with a 28mm Erfle as a finder. So much easier than straight through viewing and dealing with upside down as well as left to right! But the 60CB is taking pictures! Call me vain, but I will not alter the beautiful lines of the Mewlon, so it's down on hands and knees and squinting through the otherwise excellent finder - I'm too tired to raise the tripod and besides, a bit of Mewlon worship is no bad thing 🙂 M65 and M66 are easy in the Mewlon. I can see the different shapes, M65 being thinner and M66 possibly looks a little lumpy. I can also, with averted vision, just occasionally see a smudge where NGC3628 sits between the 2 stars of the upright of a 'T' asterism. I can even sense the plane of the galaxy is perpendicular to the upright, so it's a definite sighting. I can see all three in the same FOV and in the moments when I can see NGC3628, it's a very immersive view.

I then roughly point the scope half way between Theta Leonis and Regulus and look for 52 Leonis. From there it's an easy hop down to M95, 96 and 105. I can fit M95 and M96 into the same FOV, but need to pan to see M105. All are just appearing as misty orbs, no structure.

A quick look at M81 and M82 as they are easy and I'm getting cold and I'm concious I'm going to awaken my partner when I go in. A very obvious difference in shape between the two and a lumpy appearnce to M82. These two fit in the same FOV (32mm 85 degree Masuyama) and there is something humbling about seeing multiple galaxies in the same FOV and ponder on the sheer scale of what you are looking at. I never did get to Markarian's Chain.

The imaging is still going but I cut it short as it's now one in the morning! My one hour has turned into three. Pack everything away, bring it inside, knock the door rims with the tripods, wake my partner, fill a hot water bottle, go to bed wondering how the images will look. Can't sleep so get up to look at the images on a laptop. They're awfull. Big star trails. Something's badly wrong. A total wash out. Back to bed and thinking what might be wrong. I come to the conclusion that there must be some setting in the handset that is wrong. Lunar rather than sidereal tracking, though I didn't think there was such a dramatic difference.

The next day I went through all the menu options on the handset. Turned out that the tracking speed can be set to be loads too fast or too slow. I can't think why you might want this option, but it's there. Again, so much for my preparation!

I need to try again some night. I want to know if rough alignment will allow me to take 40 second subs. But, in reality, the attempted imaging just got in the way of a good night's observing 🙂

If you've got this far, thanks for reading!
Malcolm

[NGC 1502]

Way too much hassle mate…..just eyeball stuff and enjoy😁

[Stu]

Sounds like one of my sessions, although you didn’t knock the scope over so probably slightly better 🤣

Sometimes things go that way, and remind me why I too am a visual astronomer! Far too much like hard work this imaging lark!

[Alan White]

1 hour ago, MalcolmM said:

But, in reality, the attempted imaging just got in the way of a good night's observing 🙂

I think this line hits it square on for me.
I am visual only, tried a few images and went NOT FOR ME ta very much.

[Littleguy80]

Haha I can relate to this. Whenever I try to image I always go through these struggles and feel like I’ve wasted good observing time. On the flip side I have taken a few images over the years that I’m really pleased with so I guess it’s a case of taking the rough with the smooth!

[Louis D]

The only way I would ever become an imager would be to setup a permanent remote observatory at a dark sky location (perhaps a vacation home) that I would get working well onsite and then switch to preprogrammed imaging sessions, weather allowing.

[Ags]

I like being out in the dark, so no remote roboscopes for me. But getting an ASIAIR has made imaging so easy and hassle free it's really feasible to set it going and switch over to some visual fun with a grab and go setup.

[Paz]

I don't know about the photography specifics but the general issue of going out for a session that turns into a bit of a disaster is familiar, and so is the conundrum of not awakening or otherwise annoying ones other half.

I wonder sometimes what our partners would say about our endeavours from their perspective. Perhaps a self help sub forum for astro-partners should be put in place, with a ban on any actual astronomers being allowed in? 😀

[Elp]

I can kind of relate to that when I do visual on a manual alt az.

For imaging, good job there's goto and plate solving, I don't think I'd do it otherwise other than widefield or landscapes. When I got my asiair around 3 years ago I didn't look back, it just simplified everything together with my goto azgti in EQ mode.

The key to success is perseverance, try try, try again. If you've got a grab and go type setup it helps to have everything packed together so everything you need is there at hand, and rigging it up should become second nature with practice. I can literally setup mine in near darkness knowing by touch and location where everything is packed, and how it goes together. Daytime rigging up helped with this initially, and repeat setup and breakdown through use firmed this further.

I have to applaud your efforts, it's not easy doing it without tracking mount motors and computer assistance for those that make do without.

Edited April 9 by Elp

[callisto]

Ahh, the joy's of astronomy 😁 

My night is more like a scene from a Charlie Chaplin movie 🤣

[paulastro]

Why not just buy a Seestar S50? - the perfect antidote for an imaging itch, and it doesnt waste a lot of valuable observing time.  I do admire your determination though. 😊

Edited April 17 by paulastro

[MalcolmM]

16 hours ago, paulastro said:

Why not just buy a Seestar S50?

The polite reply is 'because I'm old fashioned'

Malcolm 

[paulastro]

2 hours ago, MalcolmM said:

The polite reply is 'because I'm old fashioned'

Malcolm 

Me too, but I made an exception 😅.

[fwm891]

Put me down as an opposit - photographer - visual is out for me. Tried it, got the tee shirt (didn't fit!)

[mikeDnight]

Photography/imaging is far too stressful for me, but I struggle with a TV remote. Just reading the OP stressed me out and I needed to lie down. It's little wonder that all the imagers I'm familiar with tend to be stress heads and complain continually as they seek a long enough clear spell, or destructively criticise their own efforts. Better to buy a good book with lots of astro pictures, and spend time contemplating the real thing at length through the eyepiece.

[saac]

I love it so much that I do both. A permanent set-up certainly makes things a lot more civilised though. 

Jim 

[ollypenrice]

On 09/04/2024 at 20:12, Louis D said:

The only way I would ever become an imager would be to setup a permanent remote observatory at a dark sky location (perhaps a vacation home) that I would get working well onsite and then switch to preprogrammed imaging sessions, weather allowing.

This is how I image and I don't think I'd do it on any other basis, though I admire those who do and, indeed, I cater for them. Initial observatory and rig setup does take a while but, when it's done, it's done and getting started is very quick. Using fast systems makes it even quicker. On this basis I find imaging incredibly rewarding and open ended, since your skills develop all the time.

Olly

[tomato]

The most stressed astronomers I have ever encountered were some visual aficionados who had their carefully cultivated dark adaptation ruined by a stray light at a star party. I’ve never got that incensed no matter how many times my camera fails to connect.😉

[MalcolmM]

1 hour ago, tomato said:

The most stressed astronomers I have ever encountered were some visual aficionados who had their carefully cultivated dark adaptation ruined by a stray light at a star party. I’ve never got that incensed no matter how many times my camera fails to connect.😉

Now don't start me on gratuitous garden lighting, blinding street lighting, local Inn with Christmas lights still going strong ... oh, and the neighbour's dog kicking off when it senses me, maybe I should take a shower first 

Malcolm 

 

[ollypenrice]

14 hours ago, tomato said:

The most stressed astronomers I have ever encountered were some visual aficionados who had their carefully cultivated dark adaptation ruined by a stray light at a star party. I’ve never got that incensed no matter how many times my camera fails to connect.😉

Hell hath no fury like an observer illuminated...

lly

[dweller25]

On 09/04/2024 at 17:18, MalcolmM said:

OK, so this a mixture of imaging and observational, but I am a visual observer and I was intending to do a good visual session. That, and my approach to imaging would probably offend the real imagers! It's also a lesson on how not to do astronomy 🙂 Laurel and Hardy could have done a better job!

A couple of days ago it was looking like it was going to be a clear moonless night. So under a blue clear afternoon sky, I thought I would do a double; try some imaging and visual at the same time. I generally take one picture a year. I do not do it seriously. So a rough polar alignment, an unmodified DSLR attached to the back of a scope, and fairly short subs does for me.

For the first time in ages, I was able to prepare, so I put the scopes out at sixish to cool, and had time to get the rig ready to take some pictures. I attached my camera to the back of my FS60CB, did a test focus on some distant trees and locked it. I attached all the bits, charged the camera and USB battery pack (for the mount), didn't think I needed to adjust the polar alignment from the last time, dec should be fine, just a rough tweak in RA. I preprogrammed the intervalvometer for 40 shots of 40 seconds. I was ready. All I had to do was point and click! I had taken a picture of Markarian's Chain a couple of years ago, only 20 second subs and where you could see most of the galaxies, I thought I could double the exposure and get more detail and more galaxies. Generally 20 seconds gives no appreciable drift with the rough polar aligning. The Mewlon was also out and cooling. I was going to star hop to Markarian's Chain and see how much I could see. To this end I had created a crib sheet on my phone in order to help me star hop there, and provide a 'tour' of the area.

I was ready! Or so I thought!

I went out at 10ish thinking an hour or so should do it before coming back in and getting into bed before my partner fell asleep (she had her first day back at work after Easter the next day). First off, rough polar alignment. It was miles off, I couldn't see Polaris, all I could see was the wall of the house. Ah, the scope was too low to see over the house. I'll just move it a couple of feet. Move the tripod, that's better, now I can eyeball Polaris. Still way off though. Then I remembered I had sent the mount back for tightening up a bit of backlash and had had to adjust it way down to fit the packaging. So much for my preparation. However, no bother, a few turns on the dec screw and we're in business.

So far so good. Now to adjust the focus. To do this, I point at a dim star, turn on the LCD on the back of the camera and zoom right in. I then simply try to minimise the size of the star in the LCD. This goes well, so now try to find Markarian's Chain. It is in a fairy blank part of the sky so even with the finder, in my light polluted skies, it can be a bit tricky. Finder? What finder? In all my preparations I had forgotten to attach the finder (normally the 60CB plus a 28mm Erfle has no need for a finder and it makes the scope even more portable than it already is). So back inside, rummaging around all the bits trying to find the finder, the correct screws, and the correct size allen key. Thankfully my partner is still reading, she's not asleep yet!

Only by the grace of God did I not loose one of the screws down a drain. It dropped, it rolled, and it stopped 1cm short of ruining my evening totally. With the finder attached, it needed to be aligned now. "Bother", or words to that effect! Back inside, rummaging around for micro screwdriver, partner still reading (thank goodness), no she's not, she's fallen asleep, book in hand, light still on. Or she was untill I tripped into the coffee table! It's going well! So much for my preparation!

Back to finding Markarian's chain. I'm using my phone crib sheet and the finder to try and work from Vindemiatrix. Upside down and left to right, you just gotta love star hopping. I get to a blank bit of sky in the finder that I think might be close and I'm sure to recognise some of the star shapes from the crib sheet. A quick 10 second exposure and ... nothing. Not one star! Lens cap definitely off, intervalvometer definitely set for 40 seconds (and I interrupt it after 10). Try again a couple of times before remembering Einstein's famous quote and start to think what else might be wrong. Eventually I remembered the 'bulb' setting on the camera. So much for my prearation! A 1/1000 second exposure might just be a little to quick.

A lot of fiddling later and I was pointing at the right place. I think! My crib sheet seems to bear no resemblace to what I'm seeing. Very little is visible with a 10 second shot. So I give it 40 seconds and wow ... enormous star trails. Is the mount on? Has the polar alignment shifted? Everything looked OK. Maybe 40 seconds was just too much; I had never taken such long exposures before. I'm getting fed up (as you, the reader, probably is too!) so I go back to 20 second subs and just let it go. I want to do some visual observing.

I start at Denebola and hop across to M65 and M66. It's at this point I remember I usually have the 60CB dual mounted with the Mewlon and use it, with a 28mm Erfle as a finder. So much easier than straight through viewing and dealing with upside down as well as left to right! But the 60CB is taking pictures! Call me vain, but I will not alter the beautiful lines of the Mewlon, so it's down on hands and knees and squinting through the otherwise excellent finder - I'm too tired to raise the tripod and besides, a bit of Mewlon worship is no bad thing 🙂 M65 and M66 are easy in the Mewlon. I can see the different shapes, M65 being thinner and M66 possibly looks a little lumpy. I can also, with averted vision, just occasionally see a smudge where NGC3628 sits between the 2 stars of the upright of a 'T' asterism. I can even sense the plane of the galaxy is perpendicular to the upright, so it's a definite sighting. I can see all three in the same FOV and in the moments when I can see NGC3628, it's a very immersive view.

I then roughly point the scope half way between Theta Leonis and Regulus and look for 52 Leonis. From there it's an easy hop down to M95, 96 and 105. I can fit M95 and M96 into the same FOV, but need to pan to see M105. All are just appearing as misty orbs, no structure.

A quick look at M81 and M82 as they are easy and I'm getting cold and I'm concious I'm going to awaken my partner when I go in. A very obvious difference in shape between the two and a lumpy appearnce to M82. These two fit in the same FOV (32mm 85 degree Masuyama) and there is something humbling about seeing multiple galaxies in the same FOV and ponder on the sheer scale of what you are looking at. I never did get to Markarian's Chain.

The imaging is still going but I cut it short as it's now one in the morning! My one hour has turned into three. Pack everything away, bring it inside, knock the door rims with the tripods, wake my partner, fill a hot water bottle, go to bed wondering how the images will look. Can't sleep so get up to look at the images on a laptop. They're awfull. Big star trails. Something's badly wrong. A total wash out. Back to bed and thinking what might be wrong. I come to the conclusion that there must be some setting in the handset that is wrong. Lunar rather than sidereal tracking, though I didn't think there was such a dramatic difference.

The next day I went through all the menu options on the handset. Turned out that the tracking speed can be set to be loads too fast or too slow. I can't think why you might want this option, but it's there. Again, so much for my preparation!

I need to try again some night. I want to know if rough alignment will allow me to take 40 second subs. But, in reality, the attempted imaging just got in the way of a good night's observing 🙂

If you've got this far, thanks for reading!
Malcolm

I was thinking about getting back into imaging until I read this 😱