The future of visual astronomy

[paulastro]

It's rare I don't see a satellite zap through if I'm  observing any object for more than five minutes.  It must be a nightmare for imaging colleagues.

[glafnazur]

I am slowly going through some images I took hoping to catch some Perseids and I thought I'd got one that was quite bright. /unfortunately when I looked closely at the images before and after there was a very faint trail on each so I reckon it must have been a satellite  

[WolfieGlos]

As a kid I was fascinated by space and I wanted a telescope. My parents got one for me, it was a basic refractor probably from Toys R Us or the like, and to my eternal shame I don’t ever recall pointing it at the sky… only out to sea at ships when on holiday!!

Jump forward 30 years and after taking up photography as a hobby for several years, I saw on the news about the Perseids… and I wanted to see if I could capture a photo of them. After a long session googling, my eyes were opened and that started my AP journey, fascinated that a DSLR and a lens could capture galaxies and nebulae from my back garden. 

I do feel the disconnect with the sky by doing AP, and I sat out this year for the Perseids at their peak (I didn’t see one!) and I really enjoyed it - not the first time I’ve done that, as I live in a bortle 4 area and can just pick up the faint streak of the Milky Way overhead. I’m currently on holiday in a bortle 3 waaay up north, we had a clear sky last night and I sat out for several hours just gazing, but could I do it every night? No, but perhaps with a scope for observing then maybe I would, and I’m now actually considering it. If not to observe, but to make up for that first telescope I had as a kid!

I don’t know anyone else who has a telescope, and when people see it they ask me if they can look through it….err, no!!! I have no diagonals, eyepieces etc. I then have to explain why… And I’ve actually come to the realisation lately that I’ve had a scope now for about 14 months, produced somewhere upwards of 50 images but I’ve still yet to look through a scope at the night sky! I doubt I’m alone in that either.

I think visual will continue and one way is because dark sites exist with public observatories such as nearby Kielder - sadly fully booked and under permacloud all the time we’ve been up here - and places like that will inspire people to try it themselves. Being significantly cheaper (certainly to start at a beginners level), visual is also a great gateway to the hobby. If someone goes there and then realises they can pick up a basic telescope for £100-£150, it’s likely they’ll buy one and try it. They won’t be looking to spend hundreds or thousands on better equipment; that might come in time once they get into the hobby and that inevitable bug of wanting more bites - and it might even lead to AP. Although, in my opinion, I can see the new robotic telescopes being the next generations’ preference if they become more affordable. 

All we can do is continue to enjoy our hobby, whether that be visual, AP or EVA, and embrace everything it has for our own liking and enjoyment. 

[Rob]

Visual Astronomy has a special place for me. Over the 30 odd years I have so many events and observations locked away in my memory. I offten recall them, and inspires me to continue. I seem to be advising & assisting others more these days with 'Getting into Astronomy'. Not just online but in person also.

I feel the Hobby has a deep routed place for visual & AP. AP is also very popular because it mixes technology with the hobby, for some that alone carries the appeal. Long may both continue, and I firmly feel they both will.

Rob

Edited August 25, 2023 by Rob
Typo

[Xilman]

On 18/08/2023 at 12:48, JeremyS said:

Visual observing does seem to be declining and digital increasing. But digital is also overly represented due to the fact that it produces….images, which are readily reproduced in mags and online. Thus there appear to be Fewer sketches.

An issue as I see it is that colourful pretty pictures sell magazines to the masses.

There is no market  for images of things which are technically far more difficult for amateurs to produce, such as bodies far out in solar system, globular clusters around external galaxies and gravitationally lensed galaxies.

[DaveS]

As far as slightly more "out there" images are concerned, I'm debating whether to "have a go at" Cass A, which will fit nicely on the SX 694 on the ODK 12. It's just a matter of finding a suitable clear filter to go with my Astrodons for focusing.

I still have my HCG project on the go.

And may try to image the "Cosmic Horseshoe" in LRGB.

Too many targets, too few clear nights.

Edited August 25, 2023 by DaveS

[Swoop1]

I am 'loving' my journey into learning astrophotography but, every so often, it is both refreshing, relaxing and educational for me to forget about rolling out the power leads and plugging in the laptop, instead, just shoving a scope on the Alt/Az and engaging the Mk1 eyeball.

For me, no matter how engrosed I become in the masochism of astrophotography, there will always be a place for pure and 'simple' visual observing.

[Richard N]

I was just looking at the ZWO Seestar. I ended up thinking that while we will always have visual astronomy, AP as a hobby could soon be something anyone can do with a gadget that they got for Christmas. Perhaps the future is actually visual astronomy?

[Astronomist]

At the moment I don't think imagers have much competition from these 'robo-scopes', but in the not too distant future maybe we will see robotic telescopes that can produce images rivalling 'proper' astrophotography. maybe not for a while though...

[Chaz2b]

I don’t think I could just image the night sky. You’ve got to look as well, otherwise you might miss that moment when……

Taking images is fine, but you are only imaging what the sensor is pointed at, plus it could take ages to get a result.

I will always look with my eyes as well as a camera.

chaz

[Richard]

On 19/08/2023 at 10:16, Ratlet said:

I don't want to veer of topic, but you've just reminded me of something that I think visual needs.  And it's the old school Sky at Night episodes where Patrick talks to amatuer observer's.  They are the absolute bee's knees.

Patrick Moore didn't interview them, he told a story with them.  He asked questions which would be useful and informative and the interviewee would know the answer too.  Maybe I've only watched the wrong newer episodes, but it feels like Sky at night is trying to be a mini Horizon documentary with a short bit on what you can see.

The closest thing I've found to those classic episodes and getting me, as an amatuer fired up, is Refreshing Views on YouTube and Actual Astronomy Podcast.  Mark Radice interviews people about their scopes and setups and really captures the vibe and enthusiasm in a similar way to Patrick.  Actual Astronomy's talking heads format also gets the vibe right, especially with some of their interviews with guests where they ask just the right questions to get answers that are informative for the newbie and interesting to the (somewhat) experienced observer.

 

I feel the same way - it was about the thrill of what I could actually see from my own garden, with whatever basic kit I could beg, borrow or otherwise scrounge as a young teenager.

My 1970s ‘Observer’s Book of Astronomy’ by a certain P Moore is something I won’t ever happily part with. Still has my pencilled notes in it from those days.

[lawsio]

Just on the light pollution issue, I'm a Civil Engineer specialising in Highways and many of the Local Authorities around the UK I work with are enforcing Dark Skies policies on new roads now, with roads only to being lit where it would pose a safety risk should they not be, for example crossing locations and certain junction types. It's part of a wider 'future ready/net zero' initiative to reduce carbon, ongoing costs, impact on wildlife, etc so I'd be lying if I said it was specifically to benefit ammeter astronomers, but hopefully in time the more of these policies get taken up, maybe some existing older street lights get taken down rather than replaced and skies might gradually start to darken again. Maybe.

[Stu1smartcookie]

15 minutes ago, lawsio said:

maybe some existing older street lights get taken down rather than replaced and skies might gradually start to darken again. Maybe.

I would like to think so , but people using the streets late at night like to feel safe in well lit areas . That says more about society today unfortunately  

[JeremyS]

2 hours ago, lawsio said:

Just on the light pollution issue, I'm a Civil Engineer specialising in Highways and many of the Local Authorities around the UK I work with are enforcing Dark Skies policies on new roads now, with roads only to being lit where it would pose a safety risk should they not be, for example crossing locations and certain junction types. It's part of a wider 'future ready/net zero' initiative to reduce carbon, ongoing costs, impact on wildlife, etc so I'd be lying if I said it was specifically to benefit ammeter astronomers, but hopefully in time the more of these policies get taken up, maybe some existing older street lights get taken down rather than replaced and skies might gradually start to darken again. Maybe.

I find what you have just written to be the most encouraging thing I’ve read in a while. Thanks!

[John]

2 hours ago, lawsio said:

Just on the light pollution issue, I'm a Civil Engineer specialising in Highways and many of the Local Authorities around the UK I work with are enforcing Dark Skies policies on new roads now, with roads only to being lit where it would pose a safety risk should they not be, for example crossing locations and certain junction types. It's part of a wider 'future ready/net zero' initiative to reduce carbon, ongoing costs, impact on wildlife, etc so I'd be lying if I said it was specifically to benefit ammeter astronomers, but hopefully in time the more of these policies get taken up, maybe some existing older street lights get taken down rather than replaced and skies might gradually start to darken again. Maybe.

That is encouraging. I have been wondering if the fiscal and environmental costs of energy provision might start to influence planning and implementation of public lighting systems of all types. It sounds like things are starting to move now 🙂

 

 

[andrew s]

Never looked at this thread but as I scrolled past a thought hit me.

Post apocalypse that is all we might have left.

Strange how these things arise. 

Regards Andrew 

[tomato]

As the OP, I certainly didn’t intend this to be a visual vs imaging thread. I personally have some concerns for the future of the hobby in all it’s forms when I look at the proportion of senior citizens who make up the attendance at the Astro shows, maybe that says more about the level of disposable income of the current generation of pensioners rather than anything else.
I still think future generations will be less inclined  to enjoy the pure visual astronomy experience, my evidence for this is that a lot of folks now seem to prefer taking video clips of a live event on their smartphones rather than experiencing it with their own eyes. The urge to “capture and post” seems strong these days.

[glafnazur]

2 minutes ago, tomato said:

 my evidence for this is that a lot of folks now seem to prefer taking video clips of a live event on their smartphones rather than experiencing it with their own eyes. The urge to “capture and post” seems strong these days.

Unfortunately I think you've hit the nail on the head there. 

[RobertI]

4 hours ago, lawsio said:

Just on the light pollution issue, I'm a Civil Engineer specialising in Highways and many of the Local Authorities around the UK I work with are enforcing Dark Skies policies on new roads now, with roads only to being lit where it would pose a safety risk should they not be, for example crossing locations and certain junction types. It's part of a wider 'future ready/net zero' initiative to reduce carbon, ongoing costs, impact on wildlife, etc so I'd be lying if I said it was specifically to benefit ammeter astronomers, but hopefully in time the more of these policies get taken up, maybe some existing older street lights get taken down rather than replaced and skies might gradually start to darken again. Maybe.

That is great to hear. Of course it’s not just roads - Network Rail have created a new car park near me with completely over the top lighting in an AONB…..  

 

[John]

26 minutes ago, tomato said:

.... a lot of folks now seem to prefer taking video clips of a live event on their smartphones rather than experiencing it with their own eyes. The urge to “capture and post” seems strong these days.

This seems driven by the constant need some seem to have to prove that "they are having a good time" by posting a never ending stream of pictures of what they are doing on social media 🙄

 

 

[Piero]

I think the future of visual astronomy will be lunar and bright planets observing, due to the increasing light pollution and number of satellites.

As a society in general, I think we are heading to a "blade runner" landscape without replicants or flying cars (at least in the short / medium term). As we approach that, I also think that there is a good chance that we face some very brutal war setting us back to another middle age. It seems a cyclic pattern in history.. On a positive side, middle ages also means dark skies, although I suspect that visual astronomy won't be a priority then..

[RobertI]

12 hours ago, RobertI said:

That is great to hear. Of course it’s not just roads - Network Rail have created a new car park near me with completely over the top lighting in an AONB…..  

 

Sorry, I know this thread is covering a lot of different ground, but just illustrate the above I took a picture of the station last night, and compare below with what it looks like during the day. If planning laws can allow this to happen in a rural setting, then there is little hope. 🫤

 

 

[josefk]

Is that on all night @RobertI? i'm not Victor Mildrew but that has got to be worth a letter of constructive criticism pointing out how ludicrous it is in an AONB on grounds of disturbance to wildlife, natural enjoyment of the landscape and profligate squandering of energy resources...

[RobertI]

34 minutes ago, josefk said:

Is that on all night @RobertI? i'm not Victor Mildrew but that has got to be worth a letter of constructive criticism pointing out how ludicrous it is in an AONB on grounds of disturbance to wildlife, natural enjoyment of the landscape and profligate squandering of energy resources...

There is actually a campaign in progress and the local council have started an enforcement “process” as it looks like planning laws have been broken, so that’s good news, but it won’t be quick. 

[lawsio]

It's an interesting topic to be on both sides of this one. 

From a purely professional/engineering standpoint, I'm not overly comfortable with the approach of not lighting things as, more often than not, it's a fundamental safety feature. Anything that involves compromising the safety of the public in the name of 'savings' for me is regressive and there's been enough high profile incidents recently including the Grenfell Disaster, the Florida University footbridge collapse, accidents on the Smart Motorways Network and the ongoing RAAC concrete issue to prove that (putting politics to one side) compromised engineering decisions cost lives. In my field, as an example, roundabouts are traditionally illuminated but I'm working in a part of the country that, like many others, now routinely don't illuminate them and as a result has seen an increase in overshoot accidents. Our main design bible, the DMRB, now has a standard for producing Benefit Cost Ratios of street lighting proposals to essentially determine if the number of accidents you can avoid are worth the capital outlay, and the calculations are heavily weighted towards no lighting. Doesn't seem right on a basic human level and is something I personally push back against quite a bit.

However, there are obvious benefits to not lighting things in terms of carbon benefits, safety benefits of not having to install/maintain columns, financial savings, benefits to animals such as foxes, badgers and bats that require darkness to operate, plus the less tangible benefits to human health and wellbeing (in the case of us, better stargazing!). Engineers like me do need progressive thinking people to push us in new directions but we sometimes go kicking and screaming!

The Station Lighting example given above is sadly a symptom of the lack of common sense in the planning processes and something I come up against all day every day. Knowing nothing about Manningtree I'm going to assume it doesn't have a safety or antisocial behavior issue that warrants all that lighting and a much more pragmatic approach could have been taken.