beginner Not all the gear and with even less idea; a night of frustration in Shropshire

[blameTECHIE]

I don't expect any replies - think I'm just braindumping for the mental wellbeing aspect of a frustrating night.

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Having been ill through the week, Saturday found me feeling well enough to get outside and see if I could hook some things together and try to get FirstLight through some of my recent purchases.  I've been using my Star Adventurer mini-rig [SA non-wifi, Canon 200D (unmodified), >30yr old Tamron 200mm f3.5] but knew things were going to be very different, and was keen to get going.

So the kit was all lined up:
> Laptop (Win10), Raspberry Pi4 with Astroberry
> EQ6-R Pro
> SW 80ED-DS Pro (Kit), SVBony SV106 190mm/50mm Guide Scope
> ZWO ASI 224MC, Canon 200D, SVBony SV205, 7TC ASI 120MC clone
> USB GPS Dongle (G72 G-Mouse Glonass Beidou GNSS) for location
and mains power for all via various PSUs with enough USB cables to circle the planet

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Didn't take too long to get both Win10 (ASCOM) or Astroberry (INDI) talking to the mount and progress was being made - RA/DEC all seemed fine so onto the cameras.  Found a distant object and SharpCap gave me images for all three USB devices once I had the SVBony as a Windows WebCam (RESULT!) and the same through INDI on the Astroberry, all three displayed images when enabling Streaming.

Settled on EQ6-R, SW 80ED, ASI224MC for imaging, SV106/SV205 for guiding

That's it (I thought!) and I broke down the rig and moved it to the lawn - I say lawn, more like a mossy bank but serves the purpose - and wait until dusk where a simple Polar Align and I'll be grabbing images of M51 Whirlpool in no time ...............

(I must cut the lawn, even if just to get rid of the blue from spray-painting a new table a couple of weekends ago)

(please ignore the middle dew heater, was there to remind me to put it on the guide scope later)

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PA on the Star Adventurer, 30mins (5mins for the alignment, 5mins for remembering which phone app has a PA Clock and the obligatory 20mins to find the flamin' polar illuminator!) - this has been giving me consistent 5min exposures with no trailing.
PA on the EQ6-R is 'interesting' - I have a QHY PoleMaster but am waiting on the adapter from FLO (stock issues) so it was SharpCap alignment.

Wait for it to get dark enough, then get focus, then wait for platesolving in a "change exposure, gain, star threshold, black threshold, platesolve again" loop for over an hour.  Woohoo, plate solved ..... oh, rotate around RA ..... and perform the same operation again ..... ARGHHH!

Over two hours later (probably more like 3hrs+) I've got polar alignment to within 12 seconds (wishing I'd screengrabbed that now).  I really don't like the adjustment mechanism, the thread pitch is far too high for minute adjustments of alignment!

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And onto guiding ........................ or maybe not.

PHD2, Nothing through it at all .... then remembered I'd not refocused the guide scope, then it was taking the Darks library.  Still nothing.  Opened the SV205 via SharpCap and got focus, switched back to PHD2, still nothing ...... hmm, is this just an unsupported camera (windows 'webcam').  So switched out for the 120MC copy - Amazon 7TC special.

Repeated the SharpCap for focus, then PHD2 Darks library and BOOM I have stars showing up in PHD2 - RESULT ...... I'll leave it at that for a moment and try looking at something, see what I get from the 224MC main camera and what PHD2 gives me in the guide scope.

So onto the next 'learning opportunity' - target selection

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Erm, how do I select a target for goto with just two camera apps .... aha, Stellarium

No Telescope selected, easy - it went something like this:
"Open Stellarium, select telescope, select ASCOM ... there we go ... nope, it won't connect ... restart everything (twice) ... redo settings (twice) ... check ASCOM diagnostics (all passed) ... quick google search, aha I'm not the only one, you have to select the scope within the options pane ... what options pane .... oh, scroll down ..."

And I now have Stellarium control of the scope - again a RESULT - it's taking time but I think I'm making progress here .... hmm, it's getting bloody cold, wow, it's midnight!

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So I now have an in focus 224MC, an in focus guide scope and control over the mount, here we go ... I'll be stacking images in the morning and making millions from selling prints online

NOPE!

Easy targets for testing were below the horizon (basically M42) so I'll just pick Vega and make sure slewing works, imaging works and can see how guiding works.

Nothing, no bright star at all - okay, bigger target - the moon.
Again nothing, no bright screen - so switched out the camera for a 26mm LER EP and a diagonal and manually aligned the moon - then, and here comes stupid, refocused (!) for the moon.

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Stellarium wasn't syncing with the mount - I was 'off' on any selected target and by a lot
Quick google search and I'm no the only one - no sync points on my clean build so wasn't that, but use of the GPS dongle for location and TIME might be the problem.

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And at this point it as 2:30am - prime viewing time last night with the moon disappearing in the West behind me - the garden slopes due-West to due-East so I only get Partial-North>East>Partial-South viewing.

Time to give up, have a small glass of Red and look for more things to buy on SGL/Astro B&S.

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Today - well I had to break everything down to get it into the garage (too heavy to carry as one with current health) - I'll try to get the ASCOM/GPS element sorted out and maybe this evening try some targeting/lunar rate tracking so see if that major element is resolved.

And, if you've made it this far, please accept this for your perseverance🎖️, you've earned it.

[Paul M]

I'd like to tell you that things will get better... 

I think it's the learning cure; full of lumps and bumps. Nice images might be the desired end result but equipment/brain interfacing can't be rushed. It's a new way of thinking!

[alacant]

Hi

Well, I got to the end of your post and hereby claim my medal!

I really am not surprised you failed, mainly because I can't work out why you are using two separate and conflicting systems.

My advice would be use the rpi throughout and use your laptop or your 'phone to communicate with it. VNC or TeamViewer is all you need for now. You can move on to hotspot and remote imaging in due course when you know it's all working.

EKOS on the pi has all you need for capture, guiding, plate solving and polar alignment, so introducing further software on a second computer (e.g. sharpcap, stellarium etc.) is an unnecessary and confusing burden. Neither do you need polemaster; the polar routine in EKOS does the job just as well.

Cheers

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by alacant

[blameTECHIE]

@alacant 🎖️

Thanks for taking the time to read it - I wasn't using both, just Win10, but during the setup in the day I was just testing to see which I would get on with better as a beginner.  But being a Microsoft person in my day job I stuck with Win10 for now, the RPi went back in the box with my other purchases.

So it's just a Win10 laptop (with remote session via RDP, VNC or TeamViewer [all are configured]), with SharpCap & PHD2.  I do have BackYard EOS for when the Canon gets used on the rig but need to get a longer rail first to push the scope forward, far too back-heavy with the stock SW rail on the ED80.

I hadn't tried EKOS though - so my next run will be RPi with that, thank you for the suggestion.  My intention is to have only ever one system, the W10 or Astroberry (and the reason I bought Pi4, so ideally that as I'd be happier a small black box out there than a Win10 laptop) so I can sit in the house with a glass of red image if I'm working at night while the tech does the heavy-lifting.

Kev

[M40]

On 25/04/2021 at 12:04, blameTECHIE said:

hmm, it's getting bloody cold, wow, it's midnight!

🤣 There is so much in that post that I can relate to..... especially the bit above .  As Paul M says, it's a way of thinking and my plan is baby steps all the way. Enjoy your glass of red 👌

[blameTECHIE]

2 minutes ago, M40 said:

Enjoy your glass of red 👌

I did thanks @M40 - just the one glass, it was green, had a label and started off with a cork in it 🍷🍷🍷 - and thank you for the support

I did get out the following night and tried Ekos, had everything talking to Astroberry and realised that whilst trying to learn a little astrophotography, it a step too much for me right now to also try an unfamiliar interface/OS and is definitely a skillset I need to work on.

So went back to Win10, polar aligned in 20mins via SharpCap and even had tracking via PHD2, though I hadn't accounted for calibration/alignment but was keeping under 2' which I was pleased with on first proper attempt.

(ignore the camera profile, I set that later and resaved to something DSS could livestack)

I also found the goto error in Stellarium - I'd configured for 'let ASCOM decide' on coordinates system but seems it decided to hand off to stellarium, which was set for decimal rather than HMS or something (can't remember now) and I was off target with everything - more work needed there, but at least when pointing at nothing I was tracking it rather well  .

But another night, another PICNIC problem fixed - I'll get there ..... 

oh, and I owe you a 🎖️

[Richard Wesson]

I always use Sharpcap to Polar Align following a rough alignment with the polar scope. Not really sure what additional benefits the Polemaster would confer.

[Guest]

I totally relate to Blametechies post but can I just butt in a quick question here.

I use the QHY polemaster for PA and find it pretty good. Would you expect Sharpcap to give better PA than polemaster? 

[Guest]

Hi Blametechie, I see your tripod is on the lawn. Isn't that a bit 'soft' to get accurate PA and alignment?

[blameTECHIE]

it's pretty much all I've got @woodblock - once setup I keep as far away as possible and it's had a good firm push into the ground when I first place it

that said, viewing isn't just limited by clouds, it's also restricted by how soggy the ground is.  Hopefully this will rectified when I manage to get a reasonably priced secondhand pier, then it's going at the top of the garden with a large amount of concrete/re-bar  

As for the PolarMaster - I've got a Star Adventurer, SW EQ5 Pro and the SW EQ6-R, so I'm wanting to get used to using it for when travel is permitted again and I'm away from home - would rather learn here than in the middle of a dark sky zone with limited time and I think the PM will hopefully be quicker than SharpCap and platesolving, at least it is prefocused (or I hope so  )

[Guest]

I have to get my telescope out and setup each time too. Doing PA with Polemaster takes me 5-10 minutes and it seems quite accurate. The biggest problem is the altitude adjustment on my HEQ5 mount which is very poor. I'm sure it must move after I've setup. I set a few slabs in the lawn for the scope and it helps if you can mark the ground so that the scope goes back to the same place each time. If you can do that then the PA with the Polemaster is just fine tuning.

For me, the first session out after a break is usually a disaster. There were long periods during the winter when we had no clear skies. (I'm in Shropshire too). The first time out nothing seems to work including my head. You just have to keep going even if the seeing is not brilliant.

[michael8554]

To save time faffing with those too-coarse adjustment bolts, be aware that the PHD2 Developers say you only need 5arcmins (yes MINS) or better PA to guide with PHD2.

Obviously for non-guided you'd go for 12arcsecs.

When you get Pole Master you'll doubtless find different results to SharpCap PA.

That's because PA error is an incredibly small angle to measure with any hope of consistency.

I'd of thought SharpCap was more than adequate, and speedy.

Cables dragging on the lawn ? Not a good idea.

Loop them to a point near the top of the tripod.

Michael

[blameTECHIE]

Thanks @michael8554

The cabling solution was temporary as I knew I'd be switching some things in and out - the box is an outdoor waterproof "christmas lights" affair with a suitably rated cable and I've been careful to make sure all cables are off the ground and also no chance of something touching the metal legs/body of the rig.  Spent some time the next day tidying USB leads to route around the RA/Dec pivot points so hopefully any update I have with 'success' will also look a bit better  

Once I have final placement sorted and a pier (that project is in progress now) then I'll get some armoured running up to a permanent outlet box and then work out appropriate cable lengths - want to do this properly now as I can't afford to be replacing anything because of stupidity and shorting out the mount/cameras (or even the Pi/laptop)

[M40]

If I might offer my diy solution to the soft grass challenge. I simply got hold of a piece of 32mm black plastic pipe, cut three lengths of it each about 150mm long and pushed them into the ground at the correct position for the tripod legs after you have polar aligned etc. Remove the mud from the pipe, fill the pipe with gravel, cement or whatever is available that's solid and there you go,  job done. You can then mow the lawn straight over them, reposition your mount very quickly and no sinking in the mud. HTH

[blameTECHIE]

OOOOH!

I have some downpipe from a shed guttering solution that never got fitted - perfect.  And I can keep that in place after the pier is sorted and use it with the EQ5 (the plan is ED80 on the EQ5, 9.25XLT on the EQ6-R, the weight of which was the reason for getting the EQ6), then I'll have double the frustration options, thank you @M40

[TerryMcK]

10 minutes ago, M40 said:

If I might offer my diy solution to the soft grass challenge. I simply got hold of a piece of 32mm black plastic pipe, cut three lengths of it each about 150mm long and pushed them into the ground at the correct position for the tripod legs after you have polar aligned etc. Remove the mud from the pipe, fill the pipe with gravel, cement or whatever is available that's solid and there you go,  job done. You can then mow the lawn straight over them, reposition your mount very quickly and no sinking in the mud. HTH

Sounds a great idea for those of us with mossy lawns. I'm fortunate to image on more solid foundations but on odd occasions where I drag the tripod out onto the lawn I will certainly use that method.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Looking at your first post I think there will be nobody on SGL that cannot relate to similar evenings on more than one occasion.

I am still fairly new to all this having now done AP for nearly 3 years (I think) and now can setup my gear (which all lives in garage so no permanent setup)  in about 10 to 20 mins and that's not rushing, as it took a bit to sink into my brain but rushing does nothing to help you get imaging at all - quite the opposite.  But it certainly was not like that in the beginning.

Regarding PA with Polemaster or Sharpcap I cannot say for sure but probably both will give similar accuracy and both fine so whatever you find easiest.
If you get round to using your RPi with EKOS they also have a very good PA tool in there now as well and I have tested it and gives exact same results as my Polemaster, I have aligned with Polemaster then run the EKOS tool and the results were the same and also aligned with ekos and checked with Polemaster.

Personally I still fine Polemaster slightly quicker but not much in it and maybe because I have used Polemaster for a couple of years I am just used to it, maybe now if I were starting out I would not pay out the extra money for it and use the EKOS tool.
I have never used Sharpcap but assume it uses a similar method to EKOS.

And the Down-pipe solution of @M40 as a quick and easy solution seems a great idea. I normally setup on my patio which is as solid as a rock but there again not perfect after a warm day as heat rising from the paving slabs does affect viewing, so in some ways having the tripod on grass is better, but ideally flat, I think a slope is not ideal, but then most of us have to cope with what we have at hand, certainly to begin with till we can build some sort of stable permanent platform.

 

But all in all sounds like you have all the right ideas actually it just takes time to implement them and for them to become natural. 
Some nights, especially when conditions are maybe not perfect (a few clouds about, or hazy, or full moon and not using NB filters) then it helps I think to maybe forget getting usable images (as often they will be poor anyway under those circumstances) and just practice things, maybe run some guiding assistant in PHD2 to improve guiding, or practice auto focusing (if you are using a program that has that facility), or try a different program, such as EKOS / KStars, NINA,  or APT and so on, there are many to try and some have really good helpful tools in there, and sometimes you just get on with one easier than the others, so rather than waste precious good imaging time on those poorer nights when maybe you think its not worth it but if a reasonable amount of stars are out and not too obscured have a practice - it will pay dividends in the end. 🙂 

Just keep calm and carry on as they say.

Steve

Edited April 28, 2021 by teoria_del_big_bang

[Richard Wesson]

On 26/04/2021 at 21:56, woodblock said:

I totally relate to Blametechies post but can I just butt in a quick question here.

I use the QHY polemaster for PA and find it pretty good. Would you expect Sharpcap to give better PA than polemaster? 

I dont know if it gives better' polar alignment. However, the cost is a fraction of that of the polemaster at £10 per year subscription for Sharpcap Pro compared to around £250.00 for the polemaster. 

[Guest]

I use PoleMaster without guiding. Looking back at three observing sessions I worked out that in the worst case I was getting 0.7 arcsec drift per minute in DEC.  Drift in RA was very small. Each session was an hour taking 60 second exposures with 10 second  gaps. Then I plate solved each exposure and plotted RA and DEC against time.  The slope of the line gives me the drift rate.  I would like to try guiding at some point but at the moment 0.7 arcsec per minute drift is fine for what I do. 

[iapa]

On 26/04/2021 at 20:50, Richard Wesson said:

I always use Sharpcap to Polar Align following a rough alignment with the polar scope. Not really sure what additional benefits the Polemaster would confer.

In my case, SharpCap didn’t have PA tool when I got the PoleMaster when it was released. Prior to that it me using hand control and it’s PA routine.