The Future of Imaging - Is everything heading OSC

[DaveS]

I don't know, but there was an Atik 6200 camera that briefly appeared on the @FLO site as a pre production item with a pre-order lead time, but disappeared when the pandemic hit, I suspect Atik had more pressing matters. 

I'm actually quite worried about SX, as their line up does look a lot like yesterday's technology. Perhaps they have something up their sleeves that they will spring on us without warning. Certainly they have camera bodies that could take the new ASP-C and 135 format sensors. Just need to swap out the USB2 for USB3.

[JTEC]

On 30/05/2020 at 19:48, Adam J said:

With all respect to Ian King he is wrong.

Unlikely, to say the least.  

[smr]

I've got my heart set on a 2600MC Pro, but my head is saying wait for the Mono version.

[DaveS]

I may end up getting one of each, and that's a scary thought for my bank balance. A OSC to put on my 80mm f/4.4 wide field astrograph with a filter holder, and the mono with wheel for the 130 triplet apo for an intermediate FoV between that and the ODK12.

[Adam J]

9 hours ago, JTEC said:

Unlikely, to say the least.  

I posted that three months back and in that time alone we have had new cameras anounced or at least confirmed as in development based on three new mono sensor types, it is said they will be released to the market by the end of the year.

I see more OSC cameras on the market these days sure, it was bound to happend with the change to CMOS in astro imaging, but what I am not seeing is a reduction in the avaliability and divercity of mono cameras, if anything new mono cameras are also being released at a higher rate than historically under CCD technology.

If you read the entire thread I have put forward strong evidence in support of my argument that mono is not dieing a death any time soon.

When I said with all due respect to Ian, I mean with all due respect to Ian, there is no subtext or sarcasum intended in that statment. I know his credentials and have spoken with him on a couple of occations he is a great guy who really knows his stuff. But as I said earlier so long as you are willing to make a reasoned argument, as I have, then its ok to disagree with someone.

The title of the thread is "is everything heading OSC" the answer is almost certainly no. If the thread had been titled something like "are modern OSC sensors becoming more viable for astro imaging and hence reducing mono market share" then I might agree with that statement. 

Adam

Edited September 4, 2020 by Adam J

[Adam J]

2 hours ago, smr said:

I've got my heart set on a 2600MC Pro, but my head is saying wait for the Mono version.

Wait for the mono, no matter how good an OSC is a mono verson of the same sensor will be twice as good again. Hence why mono is going to be around for the forseable furure, there will always be applications that demand the highest possible sensitivity in low light and even when they move to stacked OSC imaging sensors there will still be a hit to read noise, dark current  and QE in comparison to mono  so people like sony will not stop making them.

Adam

Edited September 4, 2020 by Adam J

[Sunshine]

Pardon my ignorance as a non DSO imager, what does OSC stand for?

[Adam J]

3 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

Pardon my ignorance as a non DSO imager, what does OSC stand for?

OSC = One Shot Colour, hence a colour camera with filters incorporated into the sensor photosites that make it possible to derive a full RGB image from a single exposure (hence one shot). Mono sensors lack these filters and so are more sensitive as each pixel receives much more light that would have been absorbed and lost in the case of the OSC sensor.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Adam J

[Adam J]

10 hours ago, DaveS said:

I don't know, but there was an Atik 6200 camera that briefly appeared on the @FLO site as a pre production item with a pre-order lead time, but disappeared when the pandemic hit, I suspect Atik had more pressing matters. 

I'm actually quite worried about SX, as their line up does look a lot like yesterday's technology. Perhaps they have something up their sleeves that they will spring on us without warning. Certainly they have camera bodies that could take the new ASP-C and 135 format sensors. Just need to swap out the USB2 for USB3.

They posted on their web page that they halted production to focus on medical imaging cameras due to Covid-19.

[Adam J]

11 hours ago, DaveS said:

I'm actually quite worried about SX

Yes bringing out a very old camera in Blue is the most I have seen from them recently.

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Adam J

[Sunshine]

1 hour ago, Adam J said:

OSC = One Shot Colour, hence a colour camera with filters incorporated into the sensor photosites that make it possible to derive a full RGB image from a single exposure (hence one shot). Mono sensors lack these filters and so are more sensitive as each pixel receives much more light that would have been absorbed and lost in the case of the OSC sensor.

Well i would certainly call that progress, no? imaging is complex enough, an effective one shot RGB capture would be great? theres a question mark there because i cannot speak for the pro's

[Adam J]

2 hours ago, Sunshine said:

Well i would certainly call that progress, no? imaging is complex enough, an effective one shot RGB capture would be great? theres a question mark there because i cannot speak for the pro's

They have always been made like that so, not really progress. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Adam J

[susan-parker]

I am holding out for the mono camera - I want to look at Ha as there seems to be a lot more of that around than I first imagined and it specifically something that a mono camera and a suitable filter will perform significantly better at resolving than a OSC.
Of course upgrading both Ha and SII from 7nm to 3.5nm will be another expense but for the moment I can cope with the 7nm filters I have.

[DaveS]

One drawback of mono (Speaking as a confirmed mono-maniac) is the cost of filters and wheel.

While I'm planning on a 2600 / 286 camera for the 130 triplet apo, perhaps even with Chroma filters, doing the same with my little 80mm "astrograph" could be problematic as even with the inexpensive Optolong LRGB-NB (Good enough for the IKI obsy) set it's still over £600, assuming you have a spare wheel handy. If you don't then add another £300+ to that.

[andrew s]

OSC or mono are not intrinsically good or bad they offer different options.

Simple, lower cost rgb OSC is a winner.

Higher cost and flexibility mono is a winner.

Just as with most choices in astronomy it's what you want to do with it and what you can afford that counts.

Regards Andrew 

[tomato]

If clear skies availability are not your limiting factor then mono plus filters will usually win out but under UK skies I think  a fast scope and one of the latest CMOS OSC cameras will enable you to acquire some complete, decent  images which will stand up well to comparison with the mono/filters option.

I think there is something to be said for tailoring your AP approach to the local conditions you have to contend with, just as you would choose your equipment based on the type of object you are interested in. If I was still setting up and taking down each session, for LRGB targets I don’t think mono plus filters would get a look in now.

[CCD-Freak]

My hard drive was littered with incomplete mono LRGB images so I decided to give OSC a go and I have not regretted the decision.

At some point I may get another mono camera since I do like shooting Ha but I am waiting for some new mono camera with great specs to be released.

 

John
CCD-Freak
WD5IKX

 

M20  ASI-1600MC-Cool V3  ES 127EDT

Edited September 6, 2020 by CCD-Freak

[Thommy]

8 hours ago, CCD-Freak said:

My hard drive was littered with incomplete mono LRGB images so I decided to give OSC a go and I have not regretted the decision.

At some point I may get another mono camera since I do like shooting Ha but I am waiting for some new mono camera with great specs to be released.

 

John
CCD-Freak
WD5IKX

 

M20  ASI-1600MC-Cool V3  ES 127EDT

Ha, I know the problem. I have loads of master L, R, G and B files (but mostly L) but somehow I never find the time to combine them before going to the next target.

[kirkster501]

I think OSC and mono are both here to stay.

There used to be compromises with OSC cameras.  However, OSC cameras are now so good that the disparity between the two is much less.  Mono will always win technically because the entire sensor can be dedicated to each filter, making all its pixels available to that channel.  However, we are not trying to compete with HST images or those that can be acquired by those who live in clearer sky climates (and can run the scope multiple nights per week) and on that basis the OSC route is a very credible option nowadays.

[ampleamp]

12 hours ago, CCD-Freak said:

 

My hard drive was littered with incomplete mono LRGB images so I decided to give OSC a go and I have not regretted the decision.

 

Agree 100%. High quality osc data, alongside a mono for L, or H or even O/S, is the way I am headed. There is no contest for me that mono is superior, but not if you don't get projects completed, so I want to close that gap. 268C arriving next week and I'll be near first in the queue for a 268M when it comes out (spring '21?). 

[Ouroboros]

We could really do with someone to come up with a computer controllable Bayer filter that can be set to any desired wavelength or RGB. An addressable liquid crystal filter maybe?  

[andrew s]

40 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

We could really do with someone to come up with a computer controllable Bayer filter that can be set to any desired wavelength or RGB. An addressable liquid crystal filter maybe?  

Isn't that a filter wheel and filters? 😉

Regards Andrew 

Edited September 6, 2020 by andrew s

[smr]

Yeah that's a good idea, combining L from Mono and Ha with OSC RGB would be a neat setup.

[tomato]

It is worth noting that the IKI Observatory M16 NB data that folks have been admiring on SGL was taken with a SX CCD, so if you have the skies, there is plenty of life left in the old format yet.

[Adam J]

32 minutes ago, tomato said:

It is worth noting that the IKI Observatory M16 NB data that folks have been admiring on SGL was taken with a SX CCD, so if you have the skies, there is plenty of life left in the old format yet.

Thats as much to do with it being 40 hours of data as it is anything else I think.