where to start with astrophotography?

[gsketch]

Hi all, 

Recently  I bought a celestron nexstar 8se and have had a great time observing planets and deeps sky objects. However I having read online about astrophotography it seems like something i really would like to get into. First of all i want to ask a question that probably seems very stupid to most other astronomers. When viewing deep sky objects any detail or colour is very difficult to pick out and probably non existent, does using a camera to image these objects bring out this colour and detail that I cannot see.

Having researched various colour cameras I think the Celestron NexImage Burst Colour Imager is one of my best options, however as you can probably tell I am not the most experienced astronomer at the moment so really don't know if this is a good option or not. 

Any help on what camera to buy, and any filers etc that would be useful, would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks, George.  

[PeterCPC]

The standard answer is to read Making Every Photon Count first but, in answer to your question about colour - yes photography will bring out colours that you cannot see because of the length of exposure used.

Don't just jump into astrophotography because you can make expensive mistakes that way.

Peter

[vlaiv]

Yes, using sensor will bring out color and detail that human eye can't see. Color is there, but when light is at such a low levels, it just fails to trigger cells in our eye that distinguish color - this is why we don't see any color in DSOs. If target is bright enough - like bright star, or planet - we will be able to see the color of it.

Same is with detail, or rather contrast. Detail represents contrast and if light is limited so is difference between two different intensities - our eye/brain has difficulty distinguishing between these levels and we just see a "smudge". Larger scopes and darker skies bring out details and definition in objects.

Camera has benefit of very long light accumulation - couple of minutes per exposure, and then summing multiple exposures - in the end it captures great picture, sometimes even beyond what our eye is capable of seeing (with even exceptionally large telescopes).

On camera choice - well, I think it is by far the most basic camera that you could have picked.

Before you set off to imaging it would really be beneficial if you get to know how things work, at least to some extent. Maybe getting a book on astrophotography would be a good place to start?

[carastro]

Hi, yes long exposure and post processing will bring out the colour in the skies.  Our eyes can't see in long exposure.

As regards Astrophotography, this is a complex, expensive but rewarding hobby with a learning curve.  Your best first step is to buy Steve Richards Book "Making Every Photon Counts".  Steve is a member of this forum and most people regard this as the AP Bible and best to read it before you spend any money.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

The set up you have will take planetary and Moon images and solar (with the right solar filter).  I am not an expert on planetary imaging, but others will jump in with the right advice on this.   However for long exposure imaging of deep sky objects, the telescope and mount is probably not the best choice for this, but you could use it to get started.  Reason being you can probably only do shortish exposures before field rotation starts to become a problem (this is because of it being a Alt/Az mount).

Planetary, Moon and solar images are done with a video type camera.

Deep sky objects because they are faint are done in long exposure and many of them stacked together.  Either a Modified DSLR, or a dedicated CCD or CMOS astrophotography camera.  the latter are better as they are cooled and you get less noise. 

Carole 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by carastro

[Seanelly]

Six months ago I was in the position that you now find yourself (though without any imaging scope to start off with). For what it's worth, the most important advice I can give you is reflected in some comments above and can be some of the toughest words of advice to follow in the entire process: don't be hasty. Read up on the subject until you are reasonably sure what your priorities are and can fit them into your budget. In my case, even after three months of homework, I fell short of realizing the entire monetary cost of my start-up venture by about 10%, and it continues to grow (there will often be something forgotten and always something out there better than what you have), and entirely disregarded the time and effort imaging entails (loss of sleep, social life revolving around the weather, etc.). I in no way want to dissuade you from this venture, I personally find it extremely rewarding, in part because my efforts to nail down my priorities pre-purchase have left me reasonably happy with my choices. I only wish you the same. Check out the reference book(s) suggested above, and good luck! 

[Adam J]

5 hours ago, gsketch said:

Hi all, 

Recently  I bought a celestron nexstar 8se and have had a great time observing planets and deeps sky objects. However I having read online about astrophotography it seems like something i really would like to get into. First of all i want to ask a question that probably seems very stupid to most other astronomers. When viewing deep sky objects any detail or colour is very difficult to pick out and probably non existent, does using a camera to image these objects bring out this colour and detail that I cannot see.

Having researched various colour cameras I think the Celestron NexImage Burst Colour Imager is one of my best options, however as you can probably tell I am not the most experienced astronomer at the moment so really don't know if this is a good option or not. 

Any help on what camera to buy, and any filers etc that would be useful, would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks, George.  

Astro photography covers both solar system imaging and deep sky object imaging, your 8se will do well for the former and very badly at the latter.

For imaging deep sky objects you want shorter focal lengths (as a beginner) and faster optics. For planets and solar and lunar you want long focal lengths and f-ratio is less of an issue because they are so bright.

The Celestron NextImage burst colour (OSC) camera is a solar system imaging camera, and a little outdated to be honest. It is not suited at all to DSO imaging.

You probably wont want to hear this but for DSO imaging you would be looking at a new mount, scope, camera etc.

If you want to use what you have already for planets / moon / sun then something like a ZWO ASI120MC-S Colour USB3.0 or a something based on the IMX290c at the higher end. However while good for planets neither of these cameras will give you good results for DSO imaging. Despite this they will make good guide cameras later if you chose to change your scope and mount and venture into DSO imaging.

Adam

 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Some great advice above.

I am pretty new to imaging and so gone through what you are contemplating embarking on.

Being new I can only give some basic advice I have worked my way through:

• take your time, do not rush into buying anything - do so and you will end up buying twice (at least).
• Heed advice (on this forum particularly)
• Read as much as you can ("Making Every Photon Count" is a must) before spending a penny.
• Reduce your outlay if something suitable comes up for sale on this forum but make sure it is what you are after and do not buy just because you are saving.
• Do not expect perfect images from the outset but remember any DSO image is an achievement and do not despair that they are not the near perfect images produced by many of the SGL members but look for improvements in your images and techniques. You will get there (I am hoping anyway). 
• Whilst many do manage great images on a reasonable budget and many do start out with a reasonably priced DSLR it is very easy to spend lots (lots) of money.
• Also some sessions can be extremely frustrating, resulting in little if any useful data - but hang in there and seek advice - many are willing to help and there are no stupid questions (so everybody tells me).
• Hang in there because when things do go right it is extremely rewarding and satisfying.
• Taking the shots is only half the story, the processing is perhaps more time consuming than the data acquisition.
• Just as everything starts to drop into place and things start to go right the clouds WILL roll in and they will stay for what seems forever.

Apart from that enjoy it is a great pastime obsession. 

Steve

[Paul73]

5 hours ago, Seanelly said:

 I fell short of realizing the entire monetary cost of my start-up venture by about 10%,

Only 10%! Well done. You are truly a man who researches well and has a will of steel! 

I accidentally bought a scope on eBay that is suited to imaging. The Bank balance has been declining steadily ever since. The moral of the tail? Research, read, ask, more research; only then, buy.

Paul 

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, Adam J said:

Astro photography covers both solar system imaging and deep sky object imaging, your 8se will do well for the former and very badly at the latter.

For imaging deep sky objects you want shorter focal lengths (as a beginner) and faster optics. For planets and solar and lunar you want long focal lengths and f-ratio is less of an issue because they are so bright.

The Celestron NextImage burst colour (OSC) camera is a solar system imaging camera, and a little outdated to be honest. It is not suited at all to DSO imaging.

You probably wont want to hear this but for DSO imaging you would be looking at a new mount, scope, camera etc.

If you want to use what you have already for planets / moon / sun then something like a ZWO ASI120MC-S Colour USB3.0 or a something based on the IMX290c at the higher end. However while good for planets neither of these cameras will give you good results for DSO imaging. Despite this they will make good guide cameras later if you chose to change your scope and mount and venture into DSO imaging.

Adam

 

To put a more positive spin on the above - the Nexstar 8SE is an excellent scope for planetary imaging and also the surface of the moon.

Downside is that the planets are mostly very low for the next few years making getting good images hard. A gadget called an atmospheric dispersion corrector can help reduce the distortion caused by this. You may also want an x2 or even x3 barlow.

You can use an ordinary webcam with a 1.25" scope adaptor INSTEAD of a lens but the ASI120MC is an excellent and affordable planetary camera that can also do some DSO work.

The free trial version of SharpCap will get you started capturing data. Add the free programmes PIPP, Registax and Autostakkert!3 to turn video captured in Sharpcap into great images.

If you keep exposures relatively short, you can image brighter DSOs using the ASI120MC with your scope. Here's an M27 I took using 16-second exposures automatically stacked in Sharpcap with my ASI120MC and 150PL (a 1200mm focal length newtonian) as an experiment. It has had some further processing, far from perfect but better than I expected.

 

[vlaiv]

20 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

To put a more positive spin on the above - the Nexstar 8SE is an excellent scope for planetary imaging and also the surface of the moon.

Downside is that the planets are mostly very low for the next few years making getting good images hard. A gadget called an atmospheric dispersion corrector can help reduce the distortion caused by this. You may also want an x2 or even x3 barlow.

You can use an ordinary webcam with a 1.25" scope adaptor INSTEAD of a lens but the ASI120MC is an excellent and affordable planetary camera that can also do some DSO work.

The free trial version of SharpCap will get you started capturing data. Add the free programmes PIPP, Registax and Autostakkert!3 to turn video captured in Sharpcap into great images.

If you keep exposures relatively short, you can image brighter DSOs using the ASI120MC with your scope. Here's an M27 I took using 16-second exposures automatically stacked in Sharpcap with my ASI120MC and 150PL (a 1200mm focal length newtonian) as an experiment. It has had some further processing, far from perfect but better than I expected.

 

We have all been thru that phase

QHY5LIIc, 8" F/6 newtonian, can't remember capture details - but eggy stars indicate problem with periodic error on this resolution. I remember I tried all sorts of hacks to correct for this, and deconvolution worked surprisingly well:

Stars did get rounder, but noise increase was massive ...

[Seanelly]

4 hours ago, Paul73 said:

Only 10%! Well done. You are truly a man who researches well and has a will of steel! 

I accidentally bought a scope on eBay that is suited to imaging. The Bank balance has been declining steadily ever since. The moral of the tail? Research, read, ask, more research; only then, buy.

Paul 

Originally 10% 'and it continues to grow', haha. 

[AKB]

16 hours ago, Seanelly said:

I fell short of realizing the entire monetary cost of my start-up venture by about 10%, and it continues to grow 

Certainly does... I think I am at about a factor of x5 of my original ‘budget.’

Thing is, that, in the hands of an expert, the cost is probably justified by the results (although it’s always diminishing returns.)  For a beginner, though, it’s not, because you don’t have the skills to use it. 

The question is, of course, how to gather the knowledge you’ll eventually need whilst at the same time minimising the cost...

...I’ve no idea!  Although other posts above are a good start.

It’s also a continuing journey.  You’ll need to plan a cash flow to feed it.  Some manage to arrive at an optimum, but you need to have some constraints. 

My best advice is not to go for any piece of equipment that you can’t lift.

Tony

[happy-kat]

@Stub Mandrel that's an excellent image and achieved with just that ASI camera. That gives planet and DSO potential with very small outlay as the OP already has the mount and telescope and 16 second exposure length even with the very long focal length of the 8SE should be within grasp.

Altaz mounts move in tiny left right up down movements hence the limitation on exposure length as they don't track the earth's rotation.

[Stub Mandrel]

My thought is that it's always worth making the best of what you have; it won't be wasted effort and it will mean you have a better idea of where to go next.

[Adam J]

2 hours ago, happy-kat said:

@Stub Mandrel that's an excellent image and achieved with just that ASI camera. That gives planet and DSO potential with very small outlay as the OP already has the mount and telescope and 16 second exposure length even with the very long focal length of the 8SE should be within grasp.

Altaz mounts move in tiny left right up down movements hence the limitation on exposure length as they don't track the earth's rotation.

I think that the thing to remember with Stub Mandrels example images is that they were taken by an experienced imager, most people starting out will struggle to find that target at all when you think about the field of view of a ASI120mc on a 8se....

My fear would be that it might be disheartening for a beginner. 

If it was me then unless I had the very lowest expectations for my imaging and was ready to accept some serious frustration I would focus on solar system imaging with the 8se or accept that I needed to save for appropriate DSO imaging equipment. 

I took 6 months to work out what I wanted to purchase and another 6 months on top to save for it. 

Adam 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Adam J

[happy-kat]

The are bigger targets out there like m45 or even nice star clusters or globulars that agreed would be bigger and easier then the example image. The op would need to own a laptop to connect the asi camera too. All the software they would need to get going with could be free sourced. The Moon is a great start and in it's self can be a challenge to start with. There's plenty to learn, practice and understand before spending more and getting further into the hobby and equipment.

But and the is a big BUT

The field of view using your telescope and that asi120mc is very TIGHT on DSO.

This is m3 (m45 would be a tricky multi pane mosaic to fit it on an image). Purple rectangle is the fov of the asi120mc.

The Moon would be considerably easier.

Edited May 29, 2019 by happy-kat

[tomato]

1 hour ago, Adam J said:

I think that the thing to remember with Stub Mandrels example images is that they were taken by an experienced imager, most people starting out will struggle to find that target at all when you think about the field of view of a ASI120mc on a 8se....

My fear would be that it might be disheartening for a beginner.  

 

Very good point, I recently put an ASI120 on the end of an Esprit 150, my Telrad was a bit off and it took me the best part of 2 hours to align on a reference star, never mind the DSO target. Not where you want to be when first starting out, the buzz of capturing your first image of a DSO, irrespective of quality,  is a huge boost in keeping the motivation going. 

[Adam J]

52 minutes ago, happy-kat said:

The are bigger targets out there like m45 or even nice star clusters or globulars that agreed would be bigger and easier then the example image. The op would need to own a laptop to connect the asi camera too. All the software they would need to get going with could be free sourced. The Moon is a great start and in it's self can be a challenge to start with. There's plenty to learn, practice and understand before spending more and getting further into the hobby and equipment.

But and the is a big BUT

The field of view using your telescope and that asi120mc is very TIGHT on DSO.

This is m3 (m45 would be a tricky multi pane mosaic to fit it on an image). Purple rectangle is the fov of the asi120mc.

The Moon would be considerably easier.

Yes I think that by the time you cant fit the whole of M3 into the field of view your on to a hiding for nothing. 

[Stub Mandrel]

A 0.5x focal reducer is pretty cheap and might be a useful stopgap, would get the equivalent focal length donm to 1000mm which increase the possible targets and make framing and tracking less challenging.

Another option would be to put a 130P-DS on the Nexstar mount, with an eye to shifting to an equatorial mount later on. £169 for OTA at FLO

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-130p-ds-ota.html

 

[GlenM]

Excellent thread, I've learned quite a bit from it. Thanks everyone.

 

Glen.

 

[Adam J]

3 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

A 0.5x focal reducer is pretty cheap and might be a useful stopgap, would get the equivalent focal length donm to 1000mm which increase the possible targets and make framing and tracking less challenging.

Another option would be to put a 130P-DS on the Nexstar mount, with an eye to shifting to an equatorial mount later on. £169 for OTA at FLO

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-130p-ds-ota.html

 

The 130PDS is probably still to long for the mount + planetary camera. 

Another option is to use a camera lens + DSLR mounted to the Nexstar mount. 

[PaulR1]

I studied this subject for about a year before buying anything , most of the reading I did was this forum . Then bought Make Every Photon count , read that, then decided what I needed .

You can also watch youtube "review" videos of the various equipment available but beware some of these are done by very experienced imagers with a lot of followers who are trying to sell expensive gear which you wont need right now for their suppliers.

[Adam J]

1 minute ago, PaulR1 said:

I studied this subject for about a year before buying anything , most of the reading I did was this forum . Then bought Make Every Photon count , read that, then decided what I needed .

You can also watch youtube "review" videos of the various equipment available but beware some of these are done by very experienced imagers with a lot of followers who are trying to sell expensive gear which you wont need right now for their suppliers.

and some are done by people with all the gear and no idea. Those are the ones to watch out for. 

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, Adam J said:

The 130PDS is probably still to long for the mount + planetary camera. 

I was thinking of it as the next step along, leading to getting a bigger sensor camera.

[happy-kat]

@rotatux(if I have the member right) did just this a 130pds on an altaz mount for their journey in imaging.