New kit setup (Esprit 100 ), First light Report and Issues

[souls33k3r]

Hi All,

So last night was "THE" night when i was going to give the new Esprit 100 it's first light. Been battling some personal issues so had to give AP a bit of a rest.

Took the scope out and the things that i had to work out were

1) Brave the cold

2) Find the right balance

3) Confirm if the spacing was all ok

4) Sort out step sizes for the Lakeside focuser

5) Take a test image

So here's how it went:

1) Brave the cold:

When i got home after work last night, surprisingly it wasn't that cold and the skies looked beautiful. I went out in my Pj's and started to set up. Took me slightly longer than usual to set up my entire kit as it was scattered all over the house. Something that would usually take me 20 minutes from start to finish took about an hour. This is what happens when you don't use your kit that often. There's always something you've missed. For me i spent 5 minutes wondering why my EQMOD said "Connection Error", only to realise i hadn't powered on my mount ... doh!

2) Find the right balance:

Because it was the first time for me with the new scope, i decided on balancing the RA axis first and then worry about the Dec. RA got balanced fairly quickly. DEC was a bit of a struggle. I was so used to either the handle on EdgeHD 8 or the light weight WO Star 71, that i had to really make sure my hands were on the dovetail when moving the scope and and down the saddle plate. Felt bruised in the end but a small price to pay

3) Confirm if the spacing was all ok:

Once the dec was balanced (was going to find the correct balance points later when i know where my initial focus sits), i went straight in with my first 5 seconds sub to confirm the spacing. As soon as the results came back in, immediately knew i needed more spacing as the stars looked like

Took the camera off, put in a 1.2mm delrin and came back and now it showed

took the camera off and put a smaller delrin and still the sub looked like the above image, slightly smaller size delrin and still the same but less, a bit more smaller and again the same. Now if i go one delrin size smaller, i am back with the first image. Started to experiment with various delrin sizes and the sweet spot was a 0.1mm off which by the love of GOD i couldn't figure out how to fix. Was talking to our brilliant @RayD who suggested a margarine lid cut out. BRILLIANT idea! never could i have thought of that. Tried that and still i was too far. Took me 3 hours, took the camera off and came back in. Got the caliper out and started to measure the spacers from the beginning. 

I remember RayD mentioned that in the Esprit 100 manual, the distance from the end of the flattener to the chip is listed as 63mm but in reality it's 55mm. So what was my mistake i wondered? I knew exactly where i made a massive boo boo! I measure the spacers to be at 55mm forgetting about the BF of the CMOS, FW and adding 1mm of the filter ... so basically i was adding 27.5mm more to the BF than what it was required. Another DOH! moment. Changed that and now i have perfect round stars corner to corner.

I do wonder (and would most certainly like to understand), why were my star shapes one or the other before and after i started to add and remove delrins?

4) Sort out step sizes for the Lakeside focuser:

Again, @RayD and his brilliant YouTube channel was to the rescue. The whole process went smoothly. Found the steps size required and focusing was a breeze. Ran a few test focusing runs and noticed that after the focus routine was run, on the bottom left in SGP, it kept saying "Image Preview Opened" and it would not go away and also the "Auto Focus" window would not close after 10 seconds that i defined. I had to close it manually. Has anyone ever come across that?

 

5) Take a test image:

So here we are, after all that, it's now 1:30am and i took a single 5 minute sub to see what the image looks like. I'm sorry i did not save the sub to share but i'm happy to report that it looks really good. Really pleased with the quality of the sub, the field of view and above all my stars looked just right

 

[Alan White]

Glad you got first light and a set up and test run with that nice 100mm scope.
As a non imager, you lost me after balancing the scope unfortunately - that is my failing of course.
I wish you and the scope a long and happy imaging career together.

[LightBucket]

Nice report, and am very jealous, been looking at the spirit 100 for about 12 months now.... ☹️

Did you go with the test report too, or did you not get from FLO..?

[RayD]

WOO HOO!!!

Glad you got it all sorted mate, and can at last stop pixel peeking ?

It's a lovely instrument and I'm sure it will perform superbly for you.

Has Mrs @souls33k3r asked where the little circle in the margarine tub lid has gone yet? ?

[PhotoGav]

Congratulations and welcome to the Esprit Club! This AP thing is a fiddly business, but when it works, it really is wonderful. Good luck with your onwards journey and I look forward to seeing a full image soon.

As for SGP and the Auto Focus window not going away after the time period you define. That only happens when auto focus is invoked in a sequence. I am guessing that you were clicking 'Run' on the Focus panel manually, in which case it just sits there waiting for your next manual command after completing the auto focus routine. Perfectly normal behaviour!

[Singlin]

Good wright up.

What software are you using to check your back focus?

 

[AbsolutelyN]

Hi. Could I ask a query about point 3 please? How do you actually do the test to check the spacing is correct that you show in the two images under point three?  Many thanks

[RayD]

49 minutes ago, PhotoGav said:

As for SGP and the Auto Focus window not going away after the time period you define. That only happens when auto focus is invoked in a sequence. I am guessing that you were clicking 'Run' on the Focus panel manually, in which case it just sits there waiting for your next manual command after completing the auto focus routine. Perfectly normal behaviour!

+1 

Been so long since I've looked at this (or imaged at all for that matter) I had to look at my own YouTube video to see whether it needed to run as part of a sequence ?

[souls33k3r]

1 hour ago, Alan White said:

Glad you got first light and a set up and test run with that nice 100mm scope.
As a non imager, you lost me after balancing the scope unfortunately - that is my failing of course.
I wish you and the scope a long and happy imaging career together.

Cheer Alan. The blame lies entirely with me. Nonetheless if this scope is brilliant in AP, i'm sure it will be equally good for visual observations as well

1 hour ago, LightBucket said:

Nice report, and am very jealous, been looking at the spirit 100 for about 12 months now.... ☹️

Did you go with the test report too, or did you not get from FLO..?

Cheers LightBucket. It's a fantastic equipment, really nicely made. You won't regret it. Only issue with the scope is that it's not on the lighter side of things so you have to be super careful when lifting it especially with all the other gear that goes on.

Did not get any test report but i did buy it off FLO and went with the ES Reid check. I still would like to see a before and after report from ES Reid.

1 hour ago, RayD said:

WOO HOO!!!

Glad you got it all sorted mate, and can at last stop pixel peeking ?

It's a lovely instrument and I'm sure it will perform superbly for you.

Has Mrs @souls33k3r asked where the little circle in the margarine tub lid has gone yet? ?

Pixel peeking would never stop ? I did zoom in to 400% to be doubly sure

Hahahahaha I did wonder if my Mrs would find out and ask the question but so far she hasn't so i guess she will blame it on the kids ... i must admit, i've hid the custom made delrin away from her eyes

58 minutes ago, PhotoGav said:

Congratulations and welcome to the Esprit Club! This AP thing is a fiddly business, but when it works, it really is wonderful. Good luck with your onwards journey and I look forward to seeing a full image soon.

As for SGP and the Auto Focus window not going away after the time period you define. That only happens when auto focus is invoked in a sequence. I am guessing that you were clicking 'Run' on the Focus panel manually, in which case it just sits there waiting for your next manual command after completing the auto focus routine. Perfectly normal behaviour!

Cheers Gav. Couldn't agree more mate. Hopefully will start a new project on a next clear night

You're absolutely spot on, i was indeed running the focus routine by clicking the "Run" button. Makes complete sense.

49 minutes ago, Singlin said:

Good wright up.

What software are you using to check your back focus?

 

 

48 minutes ago, AbsolutelyN said:

Hi. Could I ask a query about point 3 please? How do you actually do the test to check the spacing is correct that you show in the two images under point three?  Many thanks

Cheers Singlin and AbsolutelyN, i guess i can answer both of your questions in one go. No software used, was using my eyes to begin with. You could clearly see the stars in the corners going around or away just like in the above images. Then i remembered what RayD said about the 55mm backfocus rather than 63mm written in the manual so used a caliper to measure it. I only needed 27.5mm after the ASI1600, FW & Filter and i guess i ended up with 28mm which is close enough and was good enough to show the stars perfectly round in every corner.

More than happy to explain further if needed.

 

Oh and one issue that i did find with the scope was that it kept on slipping in the tube rings even when the tube rings were super tight. Seems like the felt in the tube rings isn't good enough to hold the weight. The scope would come to a halt when it would slide and pressed against the dew shield. Any suggestions?

And would love to find out why i was seeing stars in one direction and the other even when i was massively over back focus.

[steppenwolf]

1 hour ago, souls33k3r said:

I do wonder (and would most certainly like to understand), why were my star shapes one or the other before and after i started to add and remove delrins?

I may be in a minority of one here but I have yet to be convinced that the star diagrams that you have included and that are often quoted are actually that helpful here and your tests confirm that rather convincingly!!

I am sure that you will get some great results with this new telescope and I really enjoyed your write-up.

[RolandKol]

Nice start!

And by the way,

some image tilt and other details can be collected using CCD Inspector.... 

It has trial, - so use it smart and check vids for tutorials before the install.

[souls33k3r]

5 minutes ago, steppenwolf said:

I may be in a minority of one here but I have yet to be convinced that the star diagrams that you have included and that are often quoted are actually that helpful here and your tests confirm that rather convincingly!!

I am sure that you will get some great results with this new telescope and I really enjoyed your write-up.

Cheers steppenwolf, precisely why i raised this point. It might be a good starting point but that's there is to it. If i hadn't run in to this issue last night, i would've blindly been following the diagram myself and suggesting.

4 minutes ago, RolandKol said:

Nice start!

And by the way,

some image tilt and other details can be collected using CCD Inspector.... 

It has trial, - so use it smart and check vids for tutorials before the install.

And then there is that Of course ... in the grand scheme of things CCD Inspector is the way to go forward but nothing beats the good old fashioned eye

[RayD]

10 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

nothing beats the good old fashioned eye

Exactly! 

[RolandKol]

16 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

Cheers steppenwolf, precisely why i raised this point. It might be a good starting point but that's there is to it. If i hadn't run in to this issue last night, i would've blindly been following the diagram myself and suggesting.

And then there is that Of course ... in the grand scheme of things CCD Inspector is the way to go forward but nothing beats the good old fashioned eye

I do agree!
CDD showed 20% curvature on one of my stacked images.... I simply was not able to notice it by zooming/checking and etc... So whats the difference if you do not see it??? 
Anyway, if someone is a perfectionist and has plenty of clear skies to play around with that thingy -  why not.

[souls33k3r]

3 minutes ago, RolandKol said:

I do agree!
CDD showed 20% curvature on one of my stacked images.... I simply was not able to notice it by zooming/checking and etc... So whats the difference if you do not see it??? 
Anyway, if someone is a perfectionist and has plenty of clear skies to play around with that thingy -  why not.

Precisely mate.

[souls33k3r]

43 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

Oh and one issue that i did find with the scope was that it kept on slipping in the tube rings even when the tube rings were super tight. Seems like the felt in the tube rings isn't good enough to hold the weight. The scope would come to a halt when it would slide and pressed against the dew shield. Any suggestions?

Anyone able to comment on this bit? Any tips such as cut the margarine lid text messages at 10:30? ?

[RayD]

23 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

Anyone able to comment on this bit? Any tips such as cut the margarine lid text messages at 10:30? ?

Check that the little nylon washers are under the aluminium locking nut and not in between the 2 halves of the rings.

Edited January 29, 2019 by RayD

[souls33k3r]

8 minutes ago, RayD said:

Check that the little nylon washers are under the aluminium locking nut and not in between the 2 halves of the rings.

Roger that! cheers for that mate. I'll take a look tonight and will report back

[RayD]

42 minutes ago, RolandKol said:

I do agree!
CDD showed 20% curvature on one of my stacked images.... I simply was not able to notice it by zooming/checking and etc... So whats the difference if you do not see it??? 
Anyway, if someone is a perfectionist and has plenty of clear skies to play around with that thingy -  why not.

I see many, many people taking even a single image, 'run it through CCDI', and believe it offers an accurate diagnosis of the state of their entire imaging train; this simply isn't the case.  The authors are very specific in the requirements for obtaining suitable images for gaining good information, and this includes multiple images of a dense and even star field.

CCDI is very good, but only if used as intended.  Even then the results need interpreting correctly.

Edited January 29, 2019 by RayD

[AbsolutelyN]

I'm curious on the spacing. I have just acquired very similar setup - esprit 100 + zwo 1600mm (pro version). I tested it last night and stars looked reasonably ok to me but I'm very new to this. Opinions if it's good/bad spacing much appreciated. I think I can see some elongation in corners. The setup is flattener, zwo 16.5mm spacer, zwo 21mm spacer, mini filter wheel, camera. Quick exposure attached.

After contacting Skywatcher they can apparently provide thicker felt for the rings. I have exact same issue - the tube just slides through the rings no matter how tight. The washers are in correct place. Not impressed with that at all as rings are basically not ft for purpose as supplied.

Edited January 29, 2019 by AbsolutelyN

[Laurin Dave]

11 minutes ago, AbsolutelyN said:

I'm curious on the spacing. I have just acquired very similar setup - esprit 100 + zwo 1600mm (pro version). I tested it last night and stars looked reasonably ok to me but I'm very new to this. Opinions if it's good/bad spacing much appreciated. I think I can see some elongation in corners. The setup is flattener, zwo 16.5mm spacer, zwo 21mm spacer, mini filter wheel, camera. Quick exposure attached.

After contacting Skywatcher they can apparently provide thicker felt for the rings. I have exact same issue - the tube just slides through the rings no matter how tight. The washers are in correct place. Not impressed with that at all as rings are basically not ft for purpose as supplied.

With ASI1600 to get 55mm backfocus its flattener then 11mm and 16.5mm spacers FW then camera ie take the 11mm spacer off the front of the camera and connect camera direct to FW. There are diagrams on their website showing how its done.  At the moment you have 65mm.

Dave

[souls33k3r]

32 minutes ago, AbsolutelyN said:

I'm curious on the spacing. I have just acquired very similar setup - esprit 100 + zwo 1600mm (pro version). I tested it last night and stars looked reasonably ok to me but I'm very new to this. Opinions if it's good/bad spacing much appreciated. I think I can see some elongation in corners. The setup is flattener, zwo 16.5mm spacer, zwo 21mm spacer, mini filter wheel, camera. Quick exposure attached.

After contacting Skywatcher they can apparently provide thicker felt for the rings. I have exact same issue - the tube just slides through the rings no matter how tight. The washers are in correct place. Not impressed with that at all as rings are basically not ft for purpose as supplied.

Now the pixel peeper in me had awoken. If you take this image (which is fantastic) and view it from a distance, you don't see much wrong but as soon as you zoom in to the corners, you find the stars only in the corners seems "wooshing" (I promise this is not a technical term) away. 

+1 Dave. Like he said above said, at the moment you have 65mm spacing, you need to come down to 55mm (+/- 0.5mm) and you will immediately see the difference in the corner stars.

Good shout on the felt. I'll go home and check my scope as well and then might get in touch with FLO because it's no good if the scope slides within the tube rings.

I take it yours is the first scope and not the second? (The give away is the writing)

[Astro Imp]

2 hours ago, souls33k3r said:

Oh and one issue that i did find with the scope was that it kept on slipping in the tube rings even when the tube rings were super tight. Seems like the felt in the tube rings isn't good enough to hold the weight. The scope would come to a halt when it would slide and pressed against the dew shield. Any suggestions?

I seem to remember reading a couple of weeks ago somebody else had this problem with a scope purchased from RVO. The good folk there arranged for replacement rings, apparently it's a known issue. I shall be picking my scope up tomorrow and will get Ian at RVO to check before bringing it home.

[souls33k3r]

9 minutes ago, Astro Imp said:

I seem to remember reading a couple of weeks ago somebody else had this problem with a scope purchased from RVO. The good folk there arranged for replacement rings, apparently it's a known issue. I shall be picking my scope up tomorrow and will get Ian at RVO to check before bringing it home.

yikes! Cheers for adding the valueable info.

Well i guess i'll still go back home and check and if the nylon washers are where they're supposed to be then i'll be emailing FLO in the morning.

Beautiful scope, just not happy about the sliding bit.

[AbsolutelyN]

My scope is the one with the green plate, the first of the two images you posted. Thanks for info on spacing, on brief look it seemed ok but I did not look into it too far. I'm a total pixel peeper for daytime photography/lenses so will be aiming to get it bang on eventually. 

What's the distance within the 1600 itself (from filter mounted direct to camera to sensor)? Just fiddling with the various adaptor I have I came up with this which is 47.5mm but not sure on the filter to sensor distance.