Goodbye to Live Video astronomy

[jorman]

Gentlemen,

 I have returned my Ultrastar C camera back to the vendor. He was kind enough to accept it with just a minimal restocking fee after hearing my arguments. I believe this field of imaging is not quite ready yet. I have seen some of your beautiful pictures, but the fact remains that most of those shots are taken in pristine skies and usually with multi-stacking of subs. If an image needs to be stacked, let's say 20 subs for 20 seconds each, that is over 6 minutes looking at the image. Hardly what one will consider live or near live imaging. My initial intention was to use this camera for outreach programs in our community, but no one is going to stand up behind a computer screen for over 5 minutes to see an image when they can walk to a telescope a few steps from the computer and look at a planet, or M42, etc. I think the cameras in the market are a good start, but until the average user under average light polluted skies can get a fairly nice looking image without much manipulation in less than 30 seconds, this field will remain a very small niche in the scheme of things. The vendor did not even want to sell me  the Lodestar 2X color because in his opinion the marginal gain in exposure time was not good enough for my application.

So I thank everyone that sincerely tried to help me out. I will remain on the look out for further camera improvements and hopefully in the near future I will join you again.

Sincerely,

Jorman

[cuivenion]

Some pretty impressive stuff here with a modified Sony A7S. At 4fps, not stacked either just live video.

 

Here's the post it's from:

 

Edited April 9, 2016 by cuivenion

[Dave In Vermont]

I would say that video was successful in refuting the notion that video-cams are not useful for real-time viewing.

Very nicely done! And thank you for the tour -

Dave

[RobertI]

Thanks for letting us know Jorman, it's a real shame that it didn't work for you. It's also a shame that your recent post where you expressed some disappointment and requested some help from members didn't yield a resolution. I suspect there was more that could have been done but that said, may still not have met your expectations for live viewing in colour. Keep an eye on Don's thread where he is trying the Ultrastar C with hyperstar on a C6 in more 'normal' observing conditions. Let us know if you discover any other routes which work for you.

Rob

Edited April 9, 2016 by RobertI

[Macavity]

Video astronomy "Is what it is"? And DID "transform" my Astronomy. 

I do try tried to steer clear of the (to me surprising!) "controversies"?
In retrospect here, my destiny was perhaps to be a "classical" imager...
But local WEATHER (and life issues) severely limit multi-hour exposures?

On BEST nights, I have VIDEO hopped from DSO to DSO and captured
*some sort* of (stacked) image of 40+ Messiers, Caldwells,  O'Mearas?
Hardly "centerfold" material in Astronomy Magazines- But I like them.

Having complete the "Marathons", I'm taking things EASY now on...
Diversifying too? Personally I'm sticking with "internal integration", but!

With the aid of ZWO ASI120MC and ASI120MM cameras, I'm exploring
minimalist Planetary and Solar (H-Alpha) imaging. I do intend to revisit
VIDEO Astronomy Targets. But maybe in a slightly less "frenetic" way! 

"It's all the same, only the names will change"?  (Credit: BON JOVI!) 

Edited April 9, 2016 by Macavity

[stash_old]

I am going to get shot at for saying  this but whatever !    

IMHO  There are Astronomers who use photographer to gain further knowledge of the sky(For me that's EAA / Video astronomy) and Photographers( Artists even) who use Astronomy for beautiful pictures.

I just find it sad that it seems to me that the latter are missing a great deal and although EAA video's are not art gallery stuff they show the wonders of space in minutes not hours which for me is why I do astronomy. Plus being able to see images appear as in EAA,IMO,is fascinating and exciting (Sad eh!). 

There are a few I admit that are lucky enough to be able to do both either by skill,their location or both etc - PS not me.

Maybe people should look more closely at what they are aiming for before jumping into something but there again there's no harm in trying I guess - except to the "pocket".

OK throw your stones .

Jorman at least you tried it  and good luck and clear skies for the future.

[vlaiv]

I think it is viable option for public outreach.

Take for example following setup:

Projector, white screen, fast system with matched cmos of new generation (low read noise order of ~2e) and appropriate software

Proposed setup:

F/4 newtonian 8" or 6", HEQ5, ZWO ASI185 / 224, laptop and software to autoguide while stacking short exposures and doing stacking and auto development in the background - I think most bright objects can be viewed in under a minute and even less - with exposures in range of 1-4s  (software takes exposure, corrects guiding for next exposure, aligns and stacks frame and does basic stretching to display faint parts) - yes it will be noisy in first couple of exposures but by the end of the first minute - I think one will have decent image - probably better looking than image at eyepiece to inexperienced observer without dark adaptation - and it can be shown to bunch of people at the same time.

[laudropb]

The video certainly shows what can be done,but I still prefer the he view through the ep.

[Peter Drew]

My Watec 120n shows in 10 seconds DSO images better than can ever be seen visually through the same telescope and in the same monochrome colour. That's what I call near real time.  

[DoctorD]

Hi Jorman

Sorry the Ultrastar didn't work out for you.

I think you may be being a little over critical or perhaps had too high expectations given your astrophotography background, although from Hilodon's "Ultrastar C Limitations" thread, I think that perhaps the Ultarstar was not really suitable for your needs.

With my Lodestar C (not the latest X2) and C8 with the F3.3 reducer, I can get an image in 30s which, for dimmer objects exceeds anything I can see with my eyeball from my light polluted garden (no real chance of dark adaptation given the two 1kw Halogen "security" lights my neighbours insist on using!). The image improves with further exposures and stacking, much like  the detail in an object can be seen with extended viewing.

I agree that this is not real time - it is electronically assisted astronomy (EAA) - perhaps in time we will see further camera developments that make true real time DSO observations possible and the video shared by  cuivenion shows a step towards this.

However, for many of us, the cameras we use provide the only way to view many DSO's in a level of detail that is otherwise impossible given the equipment we have and the lack of access to dark skies.

I hope that you do not totally give up on the Video/EEA aspect of our hobby - it is a great way to share what we do.

Other cameras are available such as the well respected Mallincam range which can be used without a computer as well as USB cameras from ATIK and Starlight Express (Lodestar X2 in particular) which have been used with some level of success. These have lower resolution and relatively small chip sizes which will affect what you can fit into the image - a range of OTA's/focal lengths are necessary to get the best from these devices 

I occasionally broadcast on VAL - 

http://www.videoastronomylive.co.uk/#!doctor-d/c1j5j

Please drop by and see what we can achieve.

Clear Skies

 

Paul

 

Edited April 9, 2016 by DoctorD

[2STAR]

18 hours ago, jorman said:

Gentlemen,

 I have returned my Ultrastar C camera back to the vendor. He was kind enough to accept it with just a minimal restocking fee after hearing my arguments. I believe this field of imaging is not quite ready yet. I have seen some of your beautiful pictures, but the fact remains that most of those shots are taken in pristine skies and usually with multi-stacking of subs. If an image needs to be stacked, let's say 20 subs for 20 seconds each, that is over 6 minutes looking at the image. Hardly what one will consider live or near live imaging. My initial intention was to use this camera for outreach programs in our community, but no one is going to stand up behind a computer screen for over 5 minutes to see an image when they can walk to a telescope a few steps from the computer and look at a planet, or M42, etc. I think the cameras in the market are a good start, but until the average user under average light polluted skies can get a fairly nice looking image without much manipulation in less than 30 seconds, this field will remain a very small niche in the scheme of things. The vendor did not even want to sell me  the Lodestar 2X color because in his opinion the marginal gain in exposure time was not good enough for my application.

So I thank everyone that sincerely tried to help me out. I will remain on the look out for further camera improvements and hopefully in the near future I will join you again.

Sincerely,

Jorman

WOW !!!

[2STAR]

1 hour ago, DoctorD said:

Hi Jorman

Sorry the Ultrastar didn't work out for you.

I think you may be being a little over critical or perhaps had too high expectations given your astrophotography background, although from Hilodon's "Ultrastar C Limitations" thread, I think that perhaps the Ultarstar was not really suitable for your needs.

With my Lodestar C (not the latest X2) and C8 with the F3.3 reducer, I can get an image in 30s which, for dimmer objects exceeds anything I can see with my eyeball from my light polluted garden (no real chance of dark adaptation given the two 1kw Halogen "security" lights my neighbours insist on using!). The image improves with further exposures and stacking, much like  the detail in an object can be seen with extended viewing.

I agree that this is not real time - it is electronically assisted astronomy (EAA) - perhaps in time we will see further camera developments that make true real time DSO observations possible and the video shared by  cuivenion shows a step towards this.

However, for many of us, the cameras we use provide the only way to view many DSO's in a level of detail that is otherwise impossible given the equipment we have and the lack of access to dark skies.

I hope that you do not totally give up on the Video/EEA aspect of our hobby - it is a great way to share what we do.

Other cameras are available such as the well respected Mallincam range which can be used without a computer as well as USB cameras from ATIK and Starlight Express (Lodestar X2 in particular) which have been used with some level of success. These have lower resolution and relatively small chip sizes which will affect what you can fit into the image - a range of OTA's/focal lengths are necessary to get the best from these devices 

I occasionally broadcast on VAL - 

http://www.videoastronomylive.co.uk/#!doctor-d/c1j5j

Please drop by and see what we can achieve.

Clear Skies

 

Paul

 

Being relatively new to astronomy and over 65yr in age , EAA suits me fine, GOTO mount/Ipad scope control/Laptop Camera control, no straining at the ep, easy quick set up, and colour images for me to look back on and show to family & friends, ok, so not works of art or even very good, but they are images lol. ( and many extremely difficult or even impossible for my eyes to see via just the ep

What I do know from reading on SGL & other related sites is that when it comes to equipment etc discussion, each to their own as it does appear quite a subjective matter lol

regards

Eric 

 

[matt-c]

18 hours ago, cuivenion said:

Some pretty impressive stuff here with a modified Sony A7S. At 4fps, not stacked either just live video.

 

Here's the post it's from:

 

That's a shame jorman but at least you gave it a good go. 

 

About that video Wow!  Forgive my ignorance but I had no idea about video astronomy and I never venture into this section of the forum (long exposure narrowband junkie) but this has blew my mind. I wasn't really sure what or why people did this but I think I finally understand, Thank you.  

 

[Dave In Vermont]

For myself, the lure of video-ap is the intent to do it in any way one wishes to. Can you do a screenshot and, later on, stack them and process the daylight <koff!> out of them? Yes! Can you just let the camera feed, in realtime, to an external monitor? Yes! Can you use an expensive video-cam specializing in deep-space astro-objects that cost you over £1,000? Yes! Can you use a cheap web-cam that's only collecting dust & cobwebs? Yes!

This is how video-ap tempted me to jump in. Now I've seen it splinter into two camps: Big £££ & top-end software-programs. The flying-by-frugal gear that anyone can afford - and succeed - in capturing beautiful images that are more than capable of causing jaws to drop! There are, simply put, no rules and room for any & all folks!

That's my 2¢ - and I'm stickin' to it!

Dave

[HiloDon]

I'd like to second what Doc wrote.  Also, I think that Jorman's vendor may have given some bad advice on the Lodestar.  I have both the Lodestar and Ultrastar and must say that the LS X2m and c are much easier to use and appear to be significantly faster cameras.  I think someone just getting into EAA would be better served by starting with the LS and the moving to the Ultrastar if better resolution images are desired, but, depending on their sky conditions, they may be limited on DSO brightness.  I still prefer my Lodestars when viewing at my home observatory with poorer skies.

Don

[jorman]

Hi guys,

I really appreciate your responses to my "goodbye" thread. I think that in my case the problem is that my SCT C14 has an extremely long native focal length: 3,911mm. As such it requires an extremely fast FR to get a decent live image in less than 45 seconds ( my personal limit for considering live imaging ). A Hyperstar lens could probably do  it, but as I explained in a prior thread I am bias against Hyperstar lenses on a C14 scope, I know because I had one for years. The problem with the Hyperstar is that it get stuck to the corrector plate and it is a scary thing to get it off. I am not the only one that have experienced this problem. So maybe someday someone will invent a fast F/1.8 reducer for my scope that could be attached to the visual back. If they do, I will definitely try live imaging again.

Regards to all,

Jorman

[Astrojedi]

Jorman,

Sorry to hear that you are disappointed. Also I am very sorry that the other thread devolved into a pointless argument. I always try to say things as I see them and be as helpful as I can be.

I agree with most other comments on this thread. Also like Don I prefer to use my Lodestar X2C for live observing and it is incredibly fast but it is not a live imaging solution like the Infinity.

I would recommend you give it a try. I have been imaging for a long time but the enjoyment I get from short exposure observing at the scope is quite different.

Best,

Hiten

 

[cuivenion]

I've never used this reducer or dealt with the vendor but I've noticed it before so here it is:

http://www.astro-video.com/2-f18-sct-focal-reducers-all-systems.html

It is designed to work with the vendors own camera's though, and getting it to work with another camera might take quite a bit of experimentation/bodging.

[Dave In Vermont]

Yes - I wouldn't take a gamble on this. Not if it spells out:

WARNING! THESE FOCAL REDUCERS ARE DESIGNED STRICTLY FOR THE LNTECH CAMERAS, MODEL LN300 AND FOR OUR COOLED T-MOUNT CAMERAS. THEY WILL NOT WORK WITH ANY OTHER CAMERA WITHOUT MODIFICATION. THESE REDUCERS EMPLOY THE MOST AGGRESSIVE, HIGHEST REDUCTION FACTOR THAT IS POSSIBLE GIVEN THE TELESCOPE CHARACTERISTICS, CCD SIZE AND REDUCER TO SENSOR CORRECT SPACING. IT MAY BE POSSIBLE TO MODIFY THE FOCAL REDUCERS TO WORK WITH OTHER 1/3" CCD CAMERAS. CONTACT US FOR MORE DETAILS. WE WILL NEED TO MEASURE YOUR CAMERA MOUNT-FLANGE TO SENSOR DISTANCE TO ANALYZE IF A SPACER COULD BE MODIFIED TO ACCOMODATE THE REDUCER REQUIREMENTS.

MallinCam has an excellent 3.3 FR available, which I have. It's not 1.8, but it does work. I've bookmarked the site above to see if they do release a 1.8 for other systems.

Thank you for the link!

Dave

[jorman]

I have been in contact with Astro-Video already. Unfortunately their F/1.8 reducer is design for F/10 SCTs and they do not know if it would work with SCT C14 which is F/11.

Jorman

[cuivenion]

Fair enough sounds like you're covering all the bases. Good luck .

[SonnyE]

Well, shucks... you tried. Sorry you were disappointed.

I've had my greatest successes by doing long time exposure single images. But I am very curious about Video, and woefully deep into EAA. I do enjoy having my mount and equipment outside while cozy sitting inside, controlling it, taking images of distant nebulae I cannot see without such long exposures. One friend told me that I stack with time, rather than with multiple images.

It appears to me that maybe the video aspect of our 'sport' has not matured quite yet. And maybe that is the root of your frustrations with it.

I have and use a lowly Orion Eyepiece camera for live viewing. Mostly for the moon when it is obnoxiously bright as it is currently. While nothing to write home about, I do find it fun to stare at as the atmospheric disturbances cause it to shimmer. And it does well with the Sun (Badder film and Ha filtering applied!). But my reason for venturing into Astronomy was to image distant nebulae, and to bring to life the wonders I would never be able to see by staring into an eyepiece.

Hopefully in the near future greater advancements will enable video for deep space objects. Maybe your expectations were a little ahead of what is currently available. (Or in my case, affordable. ;^)  )

Edited April 22, 2016 by SonnyE

[SteveNickolls]

Thanks indeed for posting this video cuivenion , very interesting to view the objects 'warts and all'.

Cheers,
Stev

[memoryman]

I am considering buying either an Atik Infinity or Starlight Xpress Ultrastar and am somewaht dismayed to hear of some people's experiences with the latter (does the Atik Infinity produce similar results?)! I would have thought that my Meade LXD55 SN10 scope would, at f4, be fast enough (in my opinion) and with a large enough aperture to gather decent images from my light polluted back garden. If I use my OVX8L, which at f6 and smaller aperture, I wouldn't expect results to be quite as good, but I'm not an expert in this field.

I've seen results from a member of my astronomy group (RAG) whose small scope with a Phil Dyer camera attached has produced (in light polluted skies and from behind double glazing would you believe!) in a relatively short exposure time quite bright B&W images of objects that he's always struggled to see even in big scopes in reasonably dark skies! This he said is the main reason he's so happy with it. I would expect that either the two cameras above with their much more sensitive chips would produce even better results?

I'm not into imaging as such, but was intrigued by the cameras which would enable me to observe faint targets from my own back garden without having to lug my gear about over large distances to try and see them properly. My rationale since seeing the cameras is that if I was to become really interested in imaging then I would invest in a specialised camera and associated gear. Of course convincing my wife that the expenditure was justifiable would be a different proposition!

[DoctorD]

Hi Memoryman

Have a look at this thread on the Ultrastar - 

 

I think that you'd be better off with the Lodestar to Atik Infinity as Don suggests that a Hyperstar reducer is needed to get the best from an Ultrastar with sub 60s exposures.

If you are looking at guided exposures then the Ultrastar should be OK - but we're discussing this in the Video Astronomy Forum (and EAA).

HTH

 

Paul