LASER attack!

[Mak the Night]

It was always said the laser was a question to an answer, as when they were first developed they had no practical use, apparently. I don't know the background to this present case so I can't comment. I personally, wouldn't intentionally point a laser device into the night sky, even for astronomical reasons. But that's me.

[triton1]

The worse I have seen when walking the dog at night in the playing fields behind our house were two kids playing with a green and a red  laser.I pointed out how dangerous they can be and was told "that's ok mister we're Jedi Knights" I give up.

[Gina]

OMG!!

[Guest]

The first practical use of a laser was to give Goldfinger the opportunity to say the famous line - "No Mr Bond I expect you to die."

 

[RichM63]

One thing that puzzled me, and perhaps one of you knowledgeable folk can help me out?

Just how powerful would a hand held laser pointer have to be to cause eye damage after passing through the cockpit plexi-glass of an aeroplane at altitude, and how long would this hand held laser need to remain on an 'open eye' to cause this damage?

Assuming that the plane was travelling at a few hundred miles an hour and the 'seeing' was as we all experience at the moment rubbish, wouldn't the hand held device have lost power before damage could occur over a distance of a few miles, and blink reflex have taken over?

I too deplore the idea of pointing lasers at any unsuspecting life form, and support law enforcement in their efforts to bring the idiots to justice, I also have sympathy for the Pilot and wish a speedy recovery from any injuries sustained, but is this possibly media hype yet again?

Rich

[Psychobilly]

That scene also caused those of us in the industry all sorts of "issues" with peoples concerns and expectations about what lasers (at the time) could or couldn't do...

Peter...

[Dave In Vermont]

Proactive Response 101: "We're Jeddi Knights!" "Hi. I'm King Hammer." Take hammer from bag. Snatch laser from idiot. Smash!

Have a nice walk.

Dave

[Paul M]

I first heard this particular story here: http://avherald.com/h?article=493f2b06&opt=0 , it's happening more frequently. 

Unfortunately, any press these lasers get will serve only to bring their destructive potential to a wider audience. 

One news article I heard suggested that "plane spotters" are using them. I can't believe that they are being used by responsible plane spotters or any aircraft enthusiast as part of their hobby. I hope that it's just a case of poor reporting.  Perhaps the reporter decided that as the culprit would have to spot the plane first it makes him a plane spotter.

Good job he didn't know stargazers are using them routinely also!

[Psychobilly]

Astronomers/stargazers did get a mention in one of the news reports as "responsible" users of laser pointers...

 

[happy-kat]

A narrow beam torch seems a good safe alternative.

[Dave Lloyd]

Once again the pond life ruin it for all.

[saac]

Talking about pond life  (warning - thread drift) - you can use a laser to project an image of microbes onto a wall and see them swim around.  Simply shine a low power laser through a test tube of pond water and allow the image to fall on a suitable screen (wall).  The image will be full of the little creatures  swimming about in real time.  Interestingly, some folk raise some ethical concerns regarding the potential harm to the little creatures !  

Jim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej6ZxR67bCI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZPxLkaQSCM

[Mak the Night]

1 hour ago, RichM63 said:

One thing that puzzled me, and perhaps one of you knowledgeable folk can help me out?

Just how powerful would a hand held laser pointer have to be to cause eye damage after passing through the cockpit plexi-glass of an aeroplane at altitude, and how long would this hand held laser need to remain on an 'open eye' to cause this damage?

Assuming that the plane was travelling at a few hundred miles an hour and the 'seeing' was as we all experience at the moment rubbish, wouldn't the hand held device have lost power before damage could occur over a distance of a few miles, and blink reflex have taken over?

I too deplore the idea of pointing lasers at any unsuspecting life form, and support law enforcement in their efforts to bring the idiots to justice, I also have sympathy for the Pilot and wish a speedy recovery from any injuries sustained, but is this possibly media hype yet again?

Rich

It does sound like media hype.

[Stub Mandrel]

All the descriptions I have come across of the pilot's 'injuries' suggest to me that he was suffering from a severe case of the collywobbles.

This has some commonsense comment:

http://www.laserpointersafety.com/laser-hazards_aircraft/laser-hazards_aircraft.html

[Paul M]

In fairness to the co-pilot, they flew on for an hour to see if his symptoms (headache I believe) subsided. They didn't, so rather than set off over the Atlantic with 50% of the flight crew either emotionally or physically compromised they turned around.

Turning back was their professional obligation if there was even a hint of pilot distress. Pilots have a "minimum equipment list" that specifies what they must have available before embarking on any particular flight. I'll bet 4 eyes are a minimum requirement too!

There have been incidences of pilots suffering lasting visual impairment after a malicious laser attack

There is some youtube footage of the effects of a laser hitting a helicopter windshield. The effect is surprisingly dazzling.

[Stub Mandrel]

That website I linked to is primarily for pilots and it says there is no evidence of lasting damage caused by laser pointers. the chief problems are glare and loss of dark adaptation. It's an interesting website - they review narrowband 'anti-laser' glasses that still let you seen green indicator lights, explain what flight control do after an incident (warnings every five minutes for 20 minutes) and have a suggested laser attack flight procedure.

There's also a long list of sentences handed out to perps (I it me or do people of latin extraction seem to get longer sentences?)

[saac]

1 hour ago, RichM63 said:

One thing that puzzled me, and perhaps one of you knowledgeable folk can help me out?

Just how powerful would a hand held laser pointer have to be to cause eye damage after passing through the cockpit plexi-glass of an aeroplane at altitude, and how long would this hand held laser need to remain on an 'open eye' to cause this damage?

Assuming that the plane was travelling at a few hundred miles an hour and the 'seeing' was as we all experience at the moment rubbish, wouldn't the hand held device have lost power before damage could occur over a distance of a few miles, and blink reflex have taken over?

I too deplore the idea of pointing lasers at any unsuspecting life form, and support law enforcement in their efforts to bring the idiots to justice, I also have sympathy for the Pilot and wish a speedy recovery from any injuries sustained, but is this possibly media hype yet again?

Rich

Rich the risk posed to flight safety is certainly real and doesn't necessarily rest on  physical damage to eyesight.  This type of incident generally happens at the most critical points of flight, approach to landing or on take off.  Pilot workload is naturally highest here and it's the distraction that the laser causes that gives rise to the associated risk to flight safety.  I'm not sure what power levels or rather iradiance (w/m^2) would be present at these  typical distances; to date, instances of physical damage to eyesight has been "temporary" only.  Laser  light does not of course follow the inverse square rule regarding diminution of its power with distance - the beam is much less divergent so the power remains concentrated compared to a non coherent source. Nonetheless, the distraction in the cockpit is real, and with higher power lasers available as hand held pointers, I would not be surprised if physical damage to the retina (temporary or lasting) could result.  A pilot suffering temporary  disorientation/stress during this part of the flight is a genuine concern.  This particular case, listening to the copilot's "pan" call to ATC , certainly gives the impression that there was real distress.  A few years past, when RAF Leuchars was still active (base now operated by the Army) we had one of the Tornado F3 aircraft targeted by a local laser wilding muppet.  Said muppet was found by police and his action rewarded with a custodial sentence from what I recall.  Instances of this type of this wreckless and asinine behaviour will only increase unless we find some way to control the sale of these things.  The trick of course for legislators is do so without affecting the entirely legitimate use of hand held lasers in an increasingly wide field of use.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/fife/farm-worker-jailed-for-shining-laser-pen-at-raf-tornado-1.58205

Jim

[The Admiral]

Anyone interested in the pilot's side of things, there are plenty of posts to read on the PPRUNE blog site:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/574720-virgin-atlantic-flight-london-ny-returns-after-pilot-hurt-laser-incident.html

Ian

[baggywrinkle]

One of the reactions I think will be that when any 'civvy' sees say and astronomer using a laser as a pointer or finder then they will dob (pun not intended) to the boys in blue not matter how innocent your intended actions are.

I live fairly near RAF Marham and a laser is not something I would use as there are just too many fighter aircraft up there practising their manoeuvres day and night.

[Physopto]

I put a post into "The Lounge"

"A pertinent reminder"

About  laser damage to a young boys eyes. If you have not read it please do.

Derek

[Stub Mandrel]

I recently read about an astronomical telescope where a pair of students were paid to watch for approaching aircraft while the laser (for the adaptive optics was operative).

Back in the 80s a powerful green laser (much more than 5mW. I'm sure) used to shine out of the top of a portacabin on the Aberystwyth campus (atmospheric research in this case). I never saw anyone about looking for aircraft or anything else. I expect the RAFG/USAF knew and doubt anyone else would have been flying over at night.

[BinocularSky]

21 hours ago, iamjulian said:

Don't understand why astronomers use them. Even if I was observing and showing friends the stars with one, if someone a few streets away was imaging, I could be wrecking their enjoyment. Plus there are planes all over the place. You cannot always see them very easily at night. I'd never point one at the sky!

I use a laser rifle-sight on my big dob. Ideal for very quickly locating objects and saves having to do my back in contorting myself to look through the Telrad (which is what I use if there are imagers around). Of course, I am darned careful and don't use it if there are any aircraft around. I also use it as a teaching pointer for the night sky, and make a point (pun not intended! ) of not using it if there is any hint of aircraft. Around here, they (the aircraft) tend to have lights on at night, making them very visible.

[Darkstar_1]

Surely the sensible answer would be, to ban the use of laser pointers within an x (miles)  radius of an airport/airfield/helipad etc. I don't believe a laser pen would affect an aircraft at cruising altitude, being as it would be below the aircraft it would not sign into the cockpit windows, unless it was at an extremely shallow angle which would mean the aircraft would be miles away to achieve that angle. I do use a laser pointer when showing people what is in the night sky, but I am over 20 miles from nearest airport and not on any direct flight path for landing or taking off.

[Davey-T]

Unfortunately making something illegal doesn't stop people doing it, lol

Dave

[Physopto]

You can debate this topic until the cows come home but it is simply a case of education and using common sense.

No matter what, you will never stop the idiots and ill informed from doing what they like! There are far too many and easily obtained devices about now. Look at America and their antiquated gun laws. Even if the powers that be decided to outlaw all firearms,bar the army navy and police, there are so many available you could never stop it now. Guns as well as lasers will always be easily acquired by those who want to cause trouble, OR just plain think, that  they know better! We live in times now that are basically irreversible. Come a nuclear war, where all modern devices are destroyed you may stand a chance, but not otherwise.

The only way forwards now is EDUCATION.

You can say the same about light pollution!

 

Derek