Paying PayPal fees or friends and family - a cautionary tale

[moriniboy]

I recently purchased an ADM dual saddle from a user on AB&S and being thrifty (read I'm from Lancashire) elected to pay via friends and family, this saved me the grand total of £3.37 in fees.

Boy what a mistake.

The seller accepted the cash and when the bar did not arrive I chased them up and received an email saying that it had been sent last Thursday.

Numerous emails from me later they have gone to ground and are refusing to respond.

So a cautionary tale, if I had paid the £3.37 I could approach PayPal and they would fight my corner for non receipt of goods, as it is I'm now £90 down and more stressed than I should be.

I would like to say that I have been quite active in the buying and selling of goods over the last 5 years and this is the first hiccup I have encountered.

So pay the PayPal fees next time and thank your lucky stars you still have that £90 in your pocket.

[gnomus]

Sorry to hear of your problem.

I don't especially like the idea of sending money via PayPal to a stranger whilst claiming that he or she is a "friend or family", even though I see it quite commonly on listings here and elsewhere.  The fees are generally quite small in relation to the price of the item itself, and I think sellers should bear this cost (that is, they should factor it in to the sale price).  As you have found out, as the purchaser, you are taking all the risk if you do transfer money this way.  Indeed, PayPal might take the view that you are trying to defraud them out of their fee (which is why I wonder why websites allow such adverts).  That being said, I don't know how much I would rely on PayPal "protection" either.  The one time I called upon it (after an eBayer from Glasgow didn't send me something), it was worse than useless.  That was a few years ago though and things might have improved.  

Do you have this seller's address?  (I see no reason why sellers cannot give you their address, since you are giving them yours.)  If you do, I would suggest using HM Courts Money Claim online service.  The Court fees will probably be around the value of the missing item, but these can be included as part of your claim against the seller.  In any event, an e-mail informing the seller that you intend to take this course of action will likely prompt either the arrival of the goods or a refund.

[MAN or ASTROMAN]

Thank you for the warning.

I've always been wary of this 'friends and Family' or 'Gift' arrangement.

[barkis]

I would never Not pay the fees either.

Paypal are good at what they do, I have used them for years, and many transactions.

The fees are not exhorbitant, and are worth it for the protection they offer.

The Astronomy Community at large ii on the whole an honest group of people, and not many are rogues.

You do get the odd one, as this thread indicates, and it is very sad when good intentions are wrecked by someone nasty.

I hope there is a happy ending to this, but Unfortunately for the sake of an extra small payment, the road

to success may be a long one. Nevertheless, I hope it has a positive conclusion.

Good Luck.

[BinocularSky]

Hmm. If I buy stuff and opt to pay by PayPal, I expect to pay the fees. If I sell stuff, the price I ask is net of fees: the purchaser is always welcome to collect in person or pay by bank transfer (also net of fees) if s/he doesn't want to pay PayPal fees.

Also, there is another side to this cautionary tale: some people buy stuff then claim that it didn't arrive, and then scam you with Buyer Protection (and you are not protected unless you have Seller Protection - please don't just assume you have it!). Examples of PayPal (& ebay) scams and how to avoid them here: http://www.welivesecurity.com/2015/02/09/common-ebay-scams-avoid/

[moriniboy]

I'm expecting a satisfactory outcome to this eventually as I have the following pieces of information (normally I have been willing in the past to accept probably 50% or less of these items):

SGL identity

AB&S identity

Bank account details

Paypal email address

Mobile number

Address

 

[Physopto]

Twice PayPal have gotten my money back from either fraudulent people or when some thing just did not arrive.

I pay the fees.

I recently sold my CCD, Mount and tripod all to different buyers. I paid the fees. Not cheap but gives peace of mind!

When buying I also use PayPal especially if from abroad. It is not that I do not trust people abroad, but if you were trying to get money back for none arrival of goods, it would be far more difficult if not impossible.

 

Once bitten etc,.

Derek

[Adrian Condon]

Hi,

Sorry to hear of your loss.

Paypal used to be seller biased, now I think they are Buyer biased, so paying the fee It's around 4% I believe, would have guaranteed the return of your funds.

Did the seller invite you to declare the Friend & family line?

I only use Paypal as a last resort. I buy astro gear on the SGL Buy/Sell section and never had a problem. The bulk of the payments are done via Bank Transfer.

It appears that the seller, since they have switched off comms with you never had the item or never posted it. If they posted it with recorded delivery they could at least chase the Post Office and keep you informed. 

Have you informed AB&S of the seller's behaviour? Does the seller have other items listed on AB&S?

Hope in time you either get the ADM saddle, (they are of a very high quality and a joy to use) or your money back.

Cheers

Adrian

 

[Mark at Beaufort]

24 minutes ago, BinocularSky said:

 

Examples of PayPal (& ebay) scams and how to avoid them here: http://www.welivesecurity.com/2015/02/09/common-ebay-scams-avoid/

Steve this is a useful website thanks for posting.

Moriniboy I hope you get sorted and it shows how important it is to pay the Paypal fees.

 

[Mr Spock]

I don't know why they call it friends and family. I don't know any family I would trust with my money...

[laudropb]

I had similar problems buying with pay pal a few years ago. I just don't use it any more.

[Physopto]

Well their fees went up a couple of years ago! Not sure f the protection is any better, but at least there is some protection!

 

[Moonshane]

You need to be aware of the risks of paying fees or not but on the whole, I tend not to. I am lucky maybe that I generally end up buying from people I know or at least have bought from before.

If there's any doubt I tend to meet and buy in person, or arrange my own courier - not paying fees usually pays for the courier.

[Physopto]

Try doing so with some one you think you know well and think of a s friend. Then loose ten grand when they steel it from you.

It is often found that family can be even worse!

 

Derek

[Scott]

1 hour ago, moriniboy said:

I'm expecting a satisfactory outcome to this eventually as I have the following pieces of information (normally I have been willing in the past to accept probably 50% or less of these items):

SGL identity

AB&S identity

Bank account details

Paypal email address

Mobile number

Address

 

Whilst I am sure you may have reason to be annoyed, Please do not use sgl as leverage in your attempts to get a fair result. This is not the place to fight AB&S battles

I'm not suggesting this is your intention, merely a heads up 

Thanks for your understanding

[moriniboy]

If I wanted to do that I would have named and shamed them.

I'm not like that and its not classed as any form of leverage, I doubt that they will even read this post.

[Scott]

4 minutes ago, moriniboy said:

If I wanted to do that I would have named and shamed them.

I'm not like that and its not classed as any form of leverage, I doubt that they will even read this post.

Let me clarify my previous post. I was not insinuating that you have or even will use sgl as leverage. I was merely requesting that you don't do so in future posts.

as I said. It was a heads up/warning. thats all

[Moonshane]

36 minutes ago, Physopto said:

Try doing so with some one you think you know well and think of a s friend. Then loose ten grand when they steel it from you.

It is often found that family can be even worse!

 

Derek

Trust me, if I was doing a £10k deal, I'd be meeting in person, checking thoroughly and handing over the cash when I have what I want and it works.

[moriniboy]

Ok thanks for letting me know, its a fine line to tread sometimes.

[Roy Challen]

1 hour ago, Mr Spock said:

I don't know why they call it friends and family. I don't know any family I would trust with my money...

 

42 minutes ago, Physopto said:

Try doing so with some one you think you know well and think of a s friend. Then loose ten grand when they steel it from you.

It is often found that family can be even worse!

 

Derek

Sorry to hear that gents. My family are the only people I trust with my money.

[YKSE]

I'm sorry to hear your not so pleasant experience, hope you get it sorted.

I've bought and sold some items via Paypal no fee, since i'd like to get most of my hard-earned cash too. So far it has worked well for me, maybe just luck, but I do try to buy only from reputed SGL members.

[Moonshane]

Whilst there's no excuse for not replying to emails and 'hiding' (unless he's away or ill), things do genuinely get sent and get lost (even stolen) in transit. In my mind, if you sell something you should ensure that the buyer gets it in good shape. Therefore you must either send it cheaply (e.g. second class post) and take the risk of losing your item or insure it and get your money back (to replace the money you refund to the buyer) if the item is 'lost'. Whilst I have never had an item go astray (to or from me), I take the view that the money saved over the years in postage using cheaper methods where appropriate, and over time, covers the potential losses if the odd item goes astray. I take a view when I send things based on value / delicacy of the item, how well I know the buyer/seller and cost of courier services.

[moriniboy]

All I can say at the moment is that I smelled a rat and asked my friend a week later to approach them and enquire about buying the same item.

The response came back yes the item is still available, here are my bank details.....

I don't really want to discuss this any further as I will end up falling foul of the rules and I don't want to get banned from this forum.

[Moonshane]

I've liked your comment but really the sentiment is I don't like it (I mean what they did, not your comment).

I agree in the circumstances best to keep names out of it for now on the basis it could be a hacked account (that's my hope anyway as the other option is even worse). Neither scenario is good for you - sorry if it leads to nothing.

[michaelmorris]

I only buy or sell using Paypal.  It provides a record of the transaction and should make it much easier to recover any lost funds. If the seller wants it sent as a Paypal Gift, I just add 4% to the bill and pay normally.  I never give my bank details to a stranger. When selling I usually post it Royal Mail signed for, if the item is cheap, I get proof of posting. 

All these measure make buying and selling a bit more hassle and a bit more expensive, but I prefer the peace of mind it brings.