Brand loyalty

[Emperor!Takahashi!]

I'm curious whether others experience brand loyalty when choosing astronomy equipment.

With a username like Emperor!Takahashi!, I suppose there's nothing subtle about my position. I find that I don't feel as drawn to a telescope if it isn't a Takahashi, even if it's an outstanding instrument. I know perfectly well that there are many outstanding instruments in the world, and I don't see any instrument as "less than." And yet, there's something (probably several things) that I just love about a Takahashi. Partially, it's the optical performance. Partially, it's the method and care with which they're made. And partially, it probably relates to the fulfillment of childhood dreams... I remember how those Takahashi ads in S&T felt so alluring and impossibly out of reach.

I feel similarly about the Binotron binoviewer and Vernonscope Brandon eyepieces that I own. These are produced in the US by dedicated individuals who care deeply about what they're making. That evokes loyalty in me. I'm glad that we live in a world where high-quality optics are increasingly affordable and someone can buy an SVBONY Zoom and enjoy excellent performance. But I also want to live in a world where people can set up shop, create something beautiful, and be able to survive that way. I recently read a couple SGL threads where people with no first-hand experience of Brandons dismissed them as "not worth it" because they're more expensive than other comprable eyepieces. Some of the comments irked me, and it made me reflect on how craftspeople and specialized small-scale manufacturers must feel in a world where their creations are so easily underappreciated. I'm really pleased to own my Brandons and Binotron, and I hope those companies receive recognition and support, which is my hope for Taurus Telescopes in Poland, Costruzioni Ottiche Zen in Italy, etc. And I'm equally pleased when people enjoy Altair telescopes, Sky-Watcher mounts, and so forth.

That's some of my rationale, and I'm curious whether, and why, others feel loyal to certain brands.

[anthony]

Very interesting post. I do and I don’t. I have a number of pastimes and the points you make can really apply or they absolutely don’t.

One point factor is how aware we are of the background of the company and their processes. Is it just the brand (eg Nike shoes, Fender guitars) where the brand is a significant portion of the cost? Or is it more akin to what you describe?

As you’ve said, to be able to survive in the world today by doing something that takes time and passion is to be cherished but it is harder and harder to compete with stuff that rolls off more and more capable conveyor belts and automated processes.

I wouldn’t always go for a brand but if it was within my means I’d go for the realisation of a passion.

[Paz]

I am partial to branding sometimes. In the field of astronomy I would think of Baader and Televue.

Baader stuff has time and again done exactly what it said on the tin and done it well so I do go for their kit and I admit I don't look too hard at the alternatives any more.

I also have a preference for Televue eyepieces. I wanted the best I could get so that when observing I knew that getting the best views was all down to me and I was no longer wondering did I have the best eyepieces etc. I favoured Televue initially from their reputation and found with experience that I was very happy with them.

Looking at things now, I still favour Baader kit, but if I was starting an eyepiece collection again my Televue loyalty would be tested as I think they have tougher competition now than they did. That said I don't ever intend to change from my Televues now, and every time I use them I am very happy.

I've observed the Takahashi brand loyalty from afar, because scope wise I've gone for alternatives at a cheaper point on the price/quality spectrum, but I do fantasise about owning a Tak and I hope to have one (or more!) someday.

[JeremyS]

9 hours ago, Emperor!Takahashi! said:

And yet, there's something (probably several things) that I just love about a Takahashi. Partially, it's the optical performance. Partially, it's the method and care with which they're made. And partially, it probably relates to the fulfillment of childhood dreams... 

Don’t forget that lovely Tak smell!

[Dinglem]

Just now, JeremyS said:

Don’t forget that lovely Tak smell!

What the smell of fear if the significant other finds out how much it cost?

[Emperor!Takahashi!]

14 minutes ago, Dinglem said:

What the smell of fear if the significant other finds out how much it cost?

What she doesn't know, she can't smell 😇

[Saganite]

53 minutes ago, Dinglem said:

What the smell of fear if the significant other finds out how much it cost?

Classic.....🤣

[Elp]

I think this applies to many walks of life not just astro. If I look at the things I've had I'd say I haven't particularly stuck to one brand (we'll get onto that in a bit), OTAs have all been different and as long as you do your research and buy well you shouldn't have a problem. Mounts have mostly been different, tripods, cameras (though I made a conscious decision to go the asiair route so only buy their cameras, not really an issue as on the used market you have a plethora of camera choices compared to other brands due to their popularity so the ZWO "tax" people so often tout doesn't apply).

Eyepieces however, I did start with all sorts of brands as I got the impression they are subjective to a point, and this is true so I wanted to sample and find out for myself. You can find loads of good examples per budget so it'd be kind of crazy to stick to one brand in this case, better to buy for your budget and use scenario as a lot also depends on your scope optics. Personally I have stuck to plossl design also as early on I read this would be a good design to stick to. I've had a set of TVs and in one case had a very budget eyepiece which was 80-90 percentage the quality of a TV of the same power. Ultimately through use I decided I wanted long eye relief and a slightly larger FOV from standard, so options now became fewer. So I went Pentax XW on only a few, and know if I were to get another the general quality and experience will be the same. It doesn't mean I'm loyal to the brand, its the function which I'm loyal to. I tried a Morpheus, it wasn't the same even though the spec is somewhat similar so supports what I've said about something being fit for a user's function.

[saac]

I'm not so hung up on brand loyalty as such but I'll focus on performance and cost. I'll often take a long time considering a major purchase maybe a year or two. When I do commit I want to know for sure that the equipment will work for what I need it for so more interested in the specification and maybe reputation. Oh, and I avoid bright primary colour anodising where I can  

Jim 

Edited July 13 by saac

[Mr Spock]

With my current kit I've picked what I consider to be the best of everything. As they are lifetime purchases I didn't consider the cost. Brand loyalty is fine but can be restrictive. There are so many fine choices that will allow people to enjoy their astronomy.

Photography is a different matter, mainly due to the different camera mounts. I bought my first Nikon back in 1990 - an F-601. Because the lenses I bought wouldn't fit any other camera I was committed down the path. Today I have a D-500 and half a dozen lenses. That's the end though. Now Nikon have moved to the Z mount I have no inexpensive upgrade path.

[dweller25]

I am not hung up on brand loyalty, but I do want the best optics. 

Having tried over 30 telescopes of all types I have ended up with 4…

A 75mm F/16 Achromat refractor from the 1970’s - this scope is fun 🙂

A 100mm F/8 doublet refractor.

A 120mm F/7.5 triplet refractor.

A 180mm F/12 Dall Kirkham.

Three are Takahashi’s because of the optics.

All my mounts are made by Vixen - they are very well made and I like them.

My tripods are all made by Berlebach - they are solid and beautifully engineered.

My eyepieces are a mish mush - I have no manufacturer preference but most are Japanese.

In fact I just realised the vast majority of my kit is Japanese !

 

Edited July 14 by dweller25

[Bubbles82]

I almost certainly have a brand loyalty type approach to my Astro gear. This has definitely come from experience in the 10 years I’ve battled through the learning process with equipment and software like many on here. My love of the skywatcher equipment is based on a performance and price point combination. Everything I’ve had skywatcher has been of good quality for the cost, many times exceeding my expectations when compared to others a bit more costly . Now the big one for me has got to be the massive jump forward for software, mount control and imaging cameras since I started into this hobby 10 years ago,What a time to come into this hobby when we have various brands that have whole plug and play systems although locked to that brand that allow experienced and new people to get into this amazing hobby. I will be honest and say my zwo experience with cameras, controls and software has been what’s kept me going with this tech heavy hobby, but maybe this has been down to my personal experience being rough over the first 4 years with massive tech niggles and extremely limited clear sky time. So in conclusion I’m going to say yes brand loyalty is a thing especially for me,but it’s all based on ease of compatibility and things just working together when we have our rare chance to get out under the stars.

[tomato]

Performance/cost balance for me. For example, Paramount mounts are a thing of beauty but they fall short on performance and cost compared to the aesthetically unappealing Mesu.

[Gonariu]

I'm not a great connoisseur, so I think that a good brand is also a guarantee: those who have a name are unlikely to burn it by putting poor or defective stuff around and, if it were to happen, the company would immediately withdraw it from the market and so once Takahashi had done. I think you also agree that the brand "Takahashi" in astronomy is to "Armani" in fashion! Based on this reasoning, I recently bought:
1) the Vixen 102 M and the Vixen Polaris 90 L which, despite being vintage, are always talked about well, are certainly better than the acros made in China;
2) some eyepieces that I bought 20-25 years ago which are now starting to be vintage, a Celestron OR 6, a Polarex-Unitron OR 5 and a Vixen LV 4 mm, to which is added a semi-vintage Vixen 8-24 zoom (I observe especially the moon, sun and planets). I lack a good eyepiece for low magnification and wide field observations for the deep sky, so far I have been satisfied with two Celestron Plossl eyepieces of 25 mm and 40 mm supplied with the Nexstar 8 SE and the CPC 8, if I felt the need I'll see what some good brand sells.

[Cleetus]

These days I will buy:

Eyepieces: Televue only.
Telescopes: Takahashi only.
Mountings/tripods: Televue, Vixen and Berlebach only.
Diagonals: Televue and Baader only.
Accessories: Whatever fits the bill. An accessory for a Tak telescope will be a Tak accessory if available.

So yes, definitely will only buy big stuff from above manufacturers. I guess everyone’s opinion will differ and the cost of certain equipment will be a deciding factor. Also, there are some manufacturers I wouldn't touch with a barge pole because of past experience.

I started out observing with a 6mm Kelner eyepiece, a 12.5mm Huygens and a 25mm Orthoscopic. The first two were unbelievably bad and that's part of my rationale for only buying TV these days. Of course there are many wonderful eyepieces other than TV but I'll never get to look through them.

[Gonariu]

19 minutes ago, Cleetus said:

I started out observing with a 6mm Kelner eyepiece, a 12.5mm Huygens and a 25mm Orthoscopic. The first two were unbelievably bad and that's part of my rationale for only buying TV these days. Of course there are many wonderful eyepieces other than TV but I'll never get to look through them.

What brand were these three eyepieces? It must also be said that the eyepieces supplied with a telescope are either of sufficient quality or of poor quality. I think you wouldn't mind a vintage Vixen Kellner even nowadays.

[Cleetus]

16 minutes ago, Gonariu said:

What brand were these three eyepieces? It must also be said that the eyepieces supplied with a telescope are either of sufficient quality or of poor quality. I think you wouldn't mind a vintage Vixen Kellner even nowadays.

No manufacturer name on those eyepieces - they were bought when purchasing telescope - and were selected for their focal length. Two of them had 0.965 barrels so it was long ago. The Kellner was like looking through a Biro refill and if it wasn't for the Ortho I may well have given up with the hobby but that eyepiece showed me what was possible with better kit.

Edited July 13 by Cleetus

[Ratlet]

With my astro gear I've largely been focusing on a 'not good but, good enough' tactic, particularly with eyepieces.  I went through a phase of trying different designs and styles to figure out what works for me.

I wouldn't say Im brand loyal but there are certain companies that I'll be peaked for interest as they hit my sweet spot for performance and cost.  FLO's own brand stuff springs to mind and so does svbony.  Don't get me wrong, their cheap stuff is tat, but some of their more premium offerings punch above their weight.

[niallk]

I'm definitely guilty of brand loyalty to TV.  They earned it - loved my first quality EP - N13T6, and have it now over 12 yrs.  Many more TV EPs purchased, and no regrets.  I really respect the pedigree of the small family run company who really drove innovation.

I've only bought 1 scope from Dave Kriege at Obsession, but again I really admire what he does and how he does it, and how he published very detailed descriptions of his designs in his book.

My Lunt performs great, and they gave me great customer service on a couple of queries I had.  I'd certainly go to them again if I ever upgraded in aperture.

+1 for FLO: always a good experience on any dealings - makes me a return customer (just a shame about Brexit - being IRL based).

Edited July 13 by niallk

[Nicola Fletcher]

I have brand loyalty to pretty much everything. I’ve always been like this, and feel I’m in good company since I got into astronomy!

My telescopes are all Takahashi apart from my Altair Starwave which is the oldest one and has great sentimental value. My eyepieces are all Televue apart from one which is the Baader 8-24mm zoom. I use Takahashi and Baader diagonals. No binoviewer yet but I think that may be my next investment!

I recognise that other brands may be just as good, but like my favourite clothing brands, the Astro brands I like suit me and I have been very happy with them. I appreciate the quality of Televue eyepieces, and after buying my first Tak, the FC76-DCU I was completely hooked. I will be making a pilgrimage to Takahashi Mecca, the Starbase shop in Tokyo, next month and will be sure to send photos! 

[dweller25]

2 hours ago, Nicola Fletcher said:

I will be making a pilgrimage to Takahashi Mecca, the Starbase shop in Tokyo, next month and will be sure to send photos! 

Look forward to that 👍

[josefk]

20 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

That's the end though. Now Nikon have moved to the Z mount I have no inexpensive upgrade path.

This is liberating (now) and disappointing (future).  I was on a Nikon stand at a fair yesterday and it was all “z” mount. I was quite horrified to be honest because while I don’t need anything now, when I do (if/when my current body fails) I fear I could be in an expensive system change mess. I don’t stay current with photo mags so I hadn’t really noticed this revolution. 

…on the other hand to the Branding topic - I’ve been Nikon for 30-years since the F301 (still have one for old times sake) and handling Sony, Canon and Sigma stuff yesterday just left me cold. Canon in particular 😉 sorry Canon people - it’s an old tribal thing…

[Tony Acorn]

1 hour ago, josefk said:

This is liberating (now) and disappointing (future).  I was on a Nikon stand at a fair yesterday and it was all “z” mount. I was quite horrified to be honest because while I don’t need anything now, when I do (if/when my current body fails) I fear I could be in an expensive system change mess.

I faced a similar dilema a couple of years back Josef. My Nikon D7200 was very good but I wanted to achieve more and the later iterations of the D7xxx series raised more issues (such as a dodgy hinged screen). I was debating whether to go from cropped sensor to full frame so the Z6ii seemed a good route for me (and I have no regrets in doing almost 20,000 shots later). I also bought Nikon's FTZii mount converter at the same time and this allowed me to continue using the F-mount lenses I had accumulated. That meant I could just buy the Z6ii body and the FTZii and didn't have to buy lots of new glass. The Z6ii is undoubtedly a significant advance from the D7200 with its sensor's greater low light sensitivity (lower ASO options), its dual image processors, a CFExpress card slot alongside the usual SD card slot and the screen is a touch-screen device. It has a menu otion to shoot in DX (cropped sensor) mode too which gives you effectively a 1.5x teleconverter without the physical connection between lens and body.

Now that Nikon have introduced a Z6iii, it seems likely that you will be able to get the Z6ii for somewhat less than earlier this year. I like Sigma lenses and one drawback is that Sigma so far haven't released any Z-mount lenses AFIK. As an aside, I decided to sell my D7200 as a bundle with some DX-format lenses, my old Samyang 14mm f/2.8 MF lens and assorted accumulated goodies. Now I wish that I hadn't done so and that I had had the D7200 converted for astro work, despite the old camera's sale funding yet more GAS! 

Tony

PS - I don't work for Nikon 😂

[wimvb]

No particular brand loyalty in telescopes (maybe more in type; I do like my MakNewt), but I do prefer Pegasus astro for focus motor and power distribution, and StellarMate for control. Pegasus Astro is (as far as I know) a thriving company that started when amateurs developed equipment they needed. I bought their first generation FocusCube, which failed in cold weather. Pegasus Astro identified the problem and remedied it immediately (usb chip which failed in cold weather). I understand that a start up company can have quality issues, but if they have a good customer service, that's no problem for me. Now I have two FocusCubes and a PowerBox Advance, which all work great. Needless to say, when I need a gadget in their product range, I will very likely buy from them again.

Similarly, I've used INDI and Kstars since many years, and when I buy any gear, I make sure first that it will work with INDI (that's why my first astro camera was a ZWO and not a QHY). Mainly to show my appreciation and support, I moved from the free versions (INDI/Kstars, and Astroberry) to the commercial product StellarMate. So far, only the OS on my own Raspbery Pi, but if/when I need a new computer with my scope, it may very well be the Pro version. ASIAIR need not apply.

[josefk]

@Tony Acorn 🙉

in all seriousness i am more likely to look out for the D850 being discontinued (or whatever other Nikon high res F-mount body looks like being the last of the line) and jump on that to see me out with DSLR.