Insuring Astronomical Equipment

[AstroAndy]

Hi All

I was thinking about insuring my equipment against damage, accidental or otherwise (sometimes, one meets less than savory characters out at night, and if they're in groups and imbibed, who's to say they won't overturn equipment as a lark). I'm also thinking of carrying, or accidentally dropping such things as a C11, or a heavy mount head, up and down 4 flights of narrow stairs.

So far, I've met strange characters, and cows (yes, cows) in the deep dark places of the world, and thus would like to take this step to cut down on the risk.

If permissible, can someone let me know of an insurer that would cover such things, or a way to find one?

Thanks

Andy

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by AstroAndy

[JeremyS]

Best is to add to your house insurance. You can specify amount,excess and what amount of cover. Usually much cheaper than bespoke insurance 

[AstroAndy]

Thanks, Jeremy.

[Chefgage]

13 hours ago, JeremyS said:

Best is to add to your house insurance. You can specify amount,excess and what amount of cover. Usually much cheaper than bespoke insurance 

That can depend on a few things though. I have looked into this (and started a thread on here about it).

Many insurance companies will insurance equipment whilst it's in the home as part of contents insurance up to an amount or an agreed extra amount. The issue is when it's outside or away from home. A few I spoke to will insure up to £5000 in outbuildings or garages but if it's left in the garden whilst imaging it is not insured. I argued that on there polity they insure garden items against theft but their rationale was that they only insure items outside the house in the garden if the item is designed to be there such as garden furniture. I argued that my imaging gear is most definitely designed to be outside as I would not get much of an image if it was inside pointing at a wall!

So it comes down to this. First ring your own insurance provider and get them to explain exactly what would be insured in the event of theft especially if it's outside or away from home.  I found a few that only insured up to a value of £5000 for all the items, so if I was camping and got everything stolen including the camping gear then I would still be out of pocket.

The other option is to have a separate policy for just the astro gear. There are providers who deal with astro gear but the policies are quite expensive so it a decision you have to make.

Here is the link to the thread I started

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Chefgage

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

Certain bank current accounts carry benefits including Gadget Insurance, which would include astronomy gear. Although the value covered is usually only in the hundreds of pounds. Mine is up to £750 so at least that will cover my 4" frac being dropped or an eyepiece case getting stolen for instance. It's worth checking.

[oscar_camilleri]

Luckily I work in insurance. 

If you have a home and contents policy, you should be able to add it as a specified item against an agreed value for example astronomy kit( telescope, mount, camera , etc) £4,500. Just check that the cover is also for accidental damage, malicious damageand theft whilst away from home.

Value should be based on cost of replacement on like for like basis on current retail prices.

Would also be advisable to take photos of the kit and file any receipts and serial numbers 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

1 minute ago, oscar_camilleri said:

Luckily I work in insurance. 

If you have a home and contents policy, you should be able to add it as a specified item against an agreed value for example astronomy kit( telescope, mount, camera , etc) £4,500. Just check that the cover is also for accidental damage, malicious damageand theft whilst away from home.

Value should be based on cost of replacement on like for like basis on current retail prices.

Would also be advisable to take photos of the kit and file any receipts and serial numbers 

Would you still be able to claim if stolen from an obsy or even from your patio if left outside imaging all night ?

Steve

[oscar_camilleri]

44 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Would you still be able to claim if stolen from an obsy or even from your patio if left outside imaging all night ?

Steve

Steve it will depend on the terms of the policy. Most policies would have a clause citing there needs to be signs of violent entry or exit with regards to theft. So if in the obs and a padlock is cut or broken it would qualify for a claim. With regards someone jumping over the fence and taking it during a photo session its a bit more tricky. Best would be to refer to insurers as they will most probably refer to their underwriters for guidance or special terms.

I work in claims, but as an underwriter I would be interested in the following.

How long is it left unnatended.

Is it in an easy to reach and highly accessible area like a front garden where anyone driving by can see it

How easy is it to steal?  Much easier to run away with a small refractor than a 13 inch dob.

Then it is going to depend on the underwriter whether he wants to take the risk or not.

Edited September 29, 2021 by oscar_camilleri

[Tomatobro]

I wonder if Flo would get into the insurance broker business.....Just a thought

[AstroAndy]

Hi Oscar

Quote

Luckily I work in insurance. 

If you have a home and contents policy, you should be able to add it as a specified item against an agreed value for example astronomy kit( telescope, mount, camera , etc) £4,500

Is there a price limit on this, I'd be looking at around 10K worth of equipment. And these babies would be far from home, as I travel to Bortle 4 skies.

Andy

[tooth_dr]

Halifax offer good terms for astro equipment in the house and away from the home

[AstroAndy]

Ah, good to know, Tooth Doc. Ty

[oscar_camilleri]

1 hour ago, AstroAndy said:

Hi Oscar

Is there a price limit on this, I'd be looking at around 10K worth of equipment. And these babies would be far from home, as I travel to Bortle 4 skies.

Andy

Hi Andy, unfortunately i cannot offer any price guides as there will be a lot of variables.  So it will depend on the insurers risk appetite ( how much they like to gamble) , how knowledgeable is the underwriter, the probability of the event happening and the probability of a total loss.  But in the end it will boil down to the underwriter calculating the risk and your requirements and quoting a price.  Then it will be up to you to weigh your options and whether the expenditure is worth your peace of mind.

 

In an ideal world, you will need an underwriter who either has good knowledge about  insuring astronomy equipment or is patient and willing to spend some time looking into your requirements and asking the right questions.  My advice would be to prepare a spread sheet with a breakdown listing all of the equipment in your rig with retail prices and 2nd hand prices. Then contact your insurers let them know your requirements and if possible ask to speak to underwriters directly ( preferable someone who has  experience in calculating risk on insuring astro gear away from home).  

points that should be discussed

• Is cover new for old ( if broken beyond economical repair, will the insurer replace with new? if no longer available to buy will they offer a cash option or can you change to something of similar build, quality, price range?)
• repair options ( does it need to go direct to manufacturer? is repair option available in the uk? can it be repaired or are parts no longer available?)
• is it covered whilst in transit between home and dark site? example if it got damaged in a motor accident
• In the event that the equipment is knocked over or dropped, will the policy cover the cost sending the equipment in for testing even though there is no visible damage?  will they allow you to send the ota, mount , camera , eyepieces, etc in for testing to ensure they are still in good working order?
• any special terms or requirement whilst equipment is not in use whilst away from home. Example does it need to be locked in the van or car ?  does it need to be completely hidden from view whilst locked in the car ? 
• do they offer breakdown cover ? example if the mount breaks down or there is an electrical short ? unlikely that your standard home policy will offer this, or if they do expect special terms like having to send in the equipment for a service or maintenance check every so often.
• What perils ( incidents) are covered whilst away from home ? accidental damage , accidental loss ( left your expensive eyepiece behind) , malicious damage , theft .
• any special terms with regards to theft away from home ? does forcible entry or exit need to be present ? does threat of violence need to be present ( mugging) ? what about theft by trickery or deception ( one distracts you whilst his opportunistic friend pockets that expensive eyepiece/runs away with your rig)?
• will there be a bespoke policy excess ?  for example £250 when using at home but increases to £500 when away from home. 

The above list is not exhaustive but hopefully should give you a good idea on what to ask and discuss. 

my time is limited, but if anyone out there does obtain a quote which they want me to look at for them. I will be happy to do so free of charge unless you live close by and want to treat me to a coffee or a large single malt. I must make it clear that i will not accept any liability for the insurance that you will purchase, but i might be able to provide some clarity, so that you can make a more informed decision. 

 

[Carbon Brush]

I think whoever in the insurance world you look to buy from, read the small print, not just the headlines. Otherwise you just might not get what you want.
A couple of my experiences, not from the astro world, but examples of insurance 'funnies'.

A classic car policy. Would pay an agreed value on loss/theft. Great you think.
In the small print was - must be in a locked garage after(from memory) 9pm.
I explained to broker I was grown up and was allowed out late now. He had sold me a lemon and I wanted to cancel.
He said it actually meant (though the policy didn't say) this applied only if the car was at home.
So if it got nicked off my drive - no pay.
If I went to the pub, had too many beers and left the car behind, getting a lift home, it was covered.
If I visited someone in a rough area and left the outside overnight, finding it burnt out next day, it was covered!
Yes I insisted on getting written confirmation of this cover.

Another car policy stated 'not covered within the boundary of an airport or airfield'.
So I couldn't leave the car in the airport car park. Or pickup/drop a family member who was travelling!
They said it actually meant I couldn't use the car AIRSIDE - but they didn't put that in the policy.
As I wasn't planning on earning a few quid at weekends doing aircraft pushback or glider tug work, I thought I could manage this restriction.

In both cases, I am sure that if I had to make a claim, the insurer would have invoked his wording, rather than the spirit or intent of cover.
 

 

 

[StuartJPP]

Definitely phone the insurance company and give specific scenarios to see if you are covered.

Mine will cover kit left in a locked car at home as well as away from home as long as it was not visible and in the boot. Some insurance companies require that boot to be inaccessible from inside the car such as a sedan, not a hatchback. Mine covers both.

It will cover me if someone steals the kit from me if I am present, i.e. aggravated theft.

It will cover me if I leave my camera on the roof of the car and I drive off damaging it (accidental).

It won't cover me if I drive off leaving my kit behind (negligence).

It will cover me for loss in foreign countries to the same level as in the UK.

It will cover most accidental loss, but definitely not any negligence.

After asking them a few questions like above you soon get an idea of what is and what isn't covered since you can't dream up all possible situations.

 

[AstroAndy]

Thanks, Oscar, for your exhaustive answer and all for their input. At least now I have a starting point as to what to look at, and ask.

[Mark-V]

My stuff is covered by Glover and Howe for insurance

[AstroAndy]

Thanks, Carbon, Stuart and Mark, more food for thought.

[qisback]

I had a really good discussion with esure; initially they were confused about what I wanted but eventually they covered it as additional bespoke items to the insurance.

I had the criteria of something like:

1) "I'd like to put all my kit in the garden and run 2 cables to it, leaving it unattended and operate it remotely"

2) "I'd like to go to the middle of no where, setup my kit, run a cable into a caravan, set a session going; get drunk; fall asleep and I want all the kit covering on insurance"

They had be specifically declare items over £1k (so the scopes, cameras etc) but every other item if it was purchasable separately was covered old for new.

They did ask questions about; could I put it in the car when it was unattended, how often it would happen, and I was transferred to another department, etc. I simply stated that I didn't want to supervise the kit and most of this would happen in the 4-5 months over winter; in the end after a hour phone call it cost me £60 extra to cover it all. Both in the garden and out and about.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited October 26, 2021 by qisback

[AstroAndy]

Ah, thanks.

[MalcolmM]

11 hours ago, qisback said:

I had a really good discussion with esure; initially they were confused about what I wanted but eventually they covered it as additional bespoke items to the insurance.

I had the criteria of something like:

1) "I'd like to put all my kit in the garden and run 2 cables to it, leaving it unattended and operate it remotely"

1) "I'd like to go to the middle of no where, setup my kit, run a cable into a caravan, set a session going; get drunk; fall asleep and I want all the kit covering on insurance"

They had be specifically declare items over £1k (so the scopes, cameras etc) but every other item if it was purchasable separately was covered old for new.

They did ask questions about; could I put it in the car when it was unattended, how often it would happen, and I was transferred to another department, etc. I simply stated that I didn't want to supervise the kit and most of this would happen in the 4-5 months over winter; in the end after a hour phone call it cost me £60 extra to cover it all. Both in the garden and out and about.

 

Hope that helps.

Love your description of the caravan AP session Thinking it would make for a fantastic Bob Newhart sketch, if anyone is old enough to remember him!

[AstroAndy]

Professor Proton.

[qisback]

On 05/10/2021 at 08:05, MalcolmM said:

Love your description of the caravan AP session Thinking it would make for a fantastic Bob Newhart sketch, if anyone is old enough to remember him!

Well if you're honest with insurer's and they say they'll cover you, job done isn't it?

 

 

[SimM]

Insurance companies have a way of looking at a claim and weaselling out if it, if they can. If the scope/mount/camera/power/computer was a bicycle - it wouldn't image very well, obviously. Like a bicycle, they might want proof that it was secured e.g. can't lift it and carry it away easily (open to opportunity)? Similarly with a scope/mount, they might want some evidence of it being secured e.g. locked to a ground spike etc. If you could show that it was forcibly removed e.g. tools were used to remove it, then a claim might be successful.

Another problem might be that the insurer says that it was unattended and open to theft - like not locking your house before a burglary - no forced entry to show otherwise. Perhaps the best you might hope for is that an insurer may settle with a partial (percentage), somewhat in your favour. Or it's a risk you just have to accept. Of course, having insurance might also mean that you would never need to make a claim because that's how it goes (best scenario).

After a claim, they would perhaps increase the premiums so much that any benefit was later forfeited. Short of tying a cord to your scope and big toe and sleeping in a tent nearby, there might not be too much to do, to protect it.

Simon

[dmki]

1 hour ago, SimM said:

Insurance companies have a way of looking at a claim and weaselling out if it, if they can.

You have a point, but i think  it depends upon how important 'weaselling out' is to the company's business model. rather like the difference you see between the full service, low cost airlines and out there in a category of their own Ryan air. Its worth going to which? to get their consumer reviews of insurance companies, as this lets you see who are the full service insurers and who are the Ryan air wantabe's.

I think quite a bit of the weaselling coming from the insurer and the customer not having the same understanding of the risk's being insured, so nothing quite beats being very upfront and descriptive of what you want, as in:

On 04/10/2021 at 20:44, qisback said:

I had the criteria of something like:

1) "I'd like to put all my kit in the garden and run 2 cables to it, leaving it unattended and operate it remotely"

1) "I'd like to go to the middle of no where, setup my kit, run a cable into a caravan, set a session going; get drunk; fall asleep and I want all the kit covering on insurance"

This great description and more or less what ive done when trying to get non standard insurance, it  allows the sales team to find a risk pigeon hole they have already have. Or failing that; help the actuarial identify set of risks in their risk lists  and data, from which they can tell the business what the risk they are agreeing to is. if the business sees  risks that cannot quantified;   you get a refusal to cover or a large premium to offset that unknown risk.