Request for Help from the Observatory Automation Gurus

[old_eyes]

I need some help from the automation gurus here to understand what I need to do to link observatory control with weather conditions.

Having got my first observatory up and running, I immediately started to think about improvements (sigh!).

I had not been thinking much about automation as I actively enjoy being out under the sky. So while running an astrophotography sequnce, I will often be using my Dob or binoculars to just look around in wonder. However, whilst this is great for the first four or five hours it palls if you go on too long. I had a nearly 8 hour session over the New Year that was satisfying, but exhausting. I know I can't do that too often.

But here in North Wales the weather changes suddenly and forecast or not, I can't trust that I won't get a sudden shower hitting my lovely, sensitive kit. Clearly, at a minimum I need cloud/rain sensors and a way to park up the scope and close the observatory.

My confusion is that I can't get my head round which bit of software/electronics does what when.

Relays can provide the switching signals to open and close the observatory. Rain and cloud sensors can detect changing conditions to trigger action. But how do I link them together?

My current arrangement has a mini-PC on the mount running NINA for control and acquisition and PHD2 for guiding. It works well.

NINA has a Switch facility that I think can send signals to make things happen and detect conditions (also has a weather hub), but these seem to work through ascom. So although USB relay boards are widely and cheaply available, it doesn't look like they have ascom drivers. Do I need to run a set of relays via an RPi or Arduino to make it ascom compatible?

I have read a number of references to client and server architectures so that one computer is monitoring the weather and controlling the obsy mechanics, and another is managing the imaging rig, but I don't understand how they talk to each other. People say INDI is the answer, but I can't visualise the layout and the relationship between the various bits.

I read with interest (and with hope) the thread started by @steppenwolf on unattended observatories, but I could not follow it completely. It seems to be exactly what I was looking for, with the option to restart if the weather improves. But I don't understand how it was done.

Specialised astro-control computers like the Eagle 3 might be the answer, but the price is steep.

Can anyone point me to a resource that shows how these automation systems operate and what kind of kit beyond a mini-pc I might need?

I am not wedded to NINA if Voyager or SGP will do a better job. I have no problem setting up and coding (within reason) a RPi or Arduino, and I am reasonable comfortable with scripting. I just have a mental block about how it all works. Once I have a thought model that works for me I am sure I can sort it out, but right now I am confused.

Help! Please!

 

[Gina]

I don't know what sort of observatory you've built but you might be interested in my thoughts on this and how far I've got in my thread :-  Gina's Observatory Roll-Off-Roof Automation

Oops - just checked on your obsy thread and see you've already seen my automation thread.  Sorry...

Edited February 8, 2020 by Gina

[steppenwolf]

My automated solution uses ASCOM throughout to 'connect' all the bits together in software and the orchestration of all the disparate systems is done by software called CCDCommander (CCDC).

For your particular issue, my weather system reports the sky conditions to CCDC and if a 'dangerous' condition (overcast or rain) CCDC commands the shutter (or in your case - roof as I am guessing that you have a roll-off-roof) to close.

Although I don't use LesveDome for actually controlling the dome, I do use its optional 8 channel relay board to turn ON/OFF various components under ASCOM control and you could use this and a Velleman K8055 USB board to open and close your roof using VB scripts.

If you have a specific query, please shout!

[Xsubmariner]

I have a dome and RoR connected to a central control room. Recently I acquired the Hitech weather station delux, which automatically detects the cloud condition and alerts rain for activating some form of closure procedure. A lot depends on what your trying to integrate with and control, in my case I need to directly link into the SkyX as I need the software to park the mount before shutting the RoR,  at the same time I will be linking the signal to my Shelyak controller on my dome to close the shutter. Might I suggest you look up weather stations first too see what might provide a solution for your particular arrangement.

 

[old_eyes]

On 08/02/2020 at 10:48, Gina said:

I don't know what sort of observatory you've built but you might be interested in my thoughts on this and how far I've got in my thread :-  Gina's Observatory Roll-Off-Roof Automation

Oops - just checked on your obsy thread and see you've already seen my automation thread.  Sorry...

Thanks Gina. I have indeed been reading your thread. Although not sure I have gone right through it.

I understand the unit with the RPi and arduino that allows the roof to open and close and is connected to the rain sensor to force a close if the weather turns bad. What I do not understand is whether this is a stand alone unit, or whether it is integrated into your acquisition and control system. And if so which is the master and which the slave.

I can understand a mode of operation where rain would force the roof to close, but would not interact directly with the acquisition sequence, and I can see how to duplicate that in my observatory. The question is can I /should I link the sensing and actuators for the roof to the sequence controller, or leave them separate.

[old_eyes]

10 hours ago, Xsubmariner said:

I have a dome and RoR connected to a central control room. Recently I acquired the Hitech weather station delux, which automatically detects the cloud condition and alerts rain for activating some form of closure procedure. A lot depends on what your trying to integrate with and control, in my case I need to directly link into the SkyX as I need the software to park the mount before shutting the RoR,  at the same time I will be linking the signal to my Shelyak controller on my dome to close the shutter. Might I suggest you look up weather stations first too see what might provide a solution for your particular arrangement.

 

Good thought. I will have a look at what is availabel for sensing bad weather conditions. Don't know the Hitech, but will check it out.

[old_eyes]

On 08/02/2020 at 17:09, steppenwolf said:

My automated solution uses ASCOM throughout to 'connect' all the bits together in software and the orchestration of all the disparate systems is done by software called CCDCommander (CCDC).

For your particular issue, my weather system reports the sky conditions to CCDC and if a 'dangerous' condition (overcast or rain) CCDC commands the shutter (or in your case - roof as I am guessing that you have a roll-off-roof) to close.

Although I don't use LesveDome for actually controlling the dome, I do use its optional 8 channel relay board to turn ON/OFF various components under ASCOM control and you could use this and a Velleman K8055 USB board to open and close your roof using VB scripts.

If you have a specific query, please shout!

Thanks Steve. You may have answered my question.

If the ASCOM driver for LesveDome can drive the Velleman K8055, then I should be able to both sense conditions and turn on or off various components. That was my biggest confusion, how you communicate via ASCOM with an I/O or relay board. Velleman components are of a similar price to many other interface boards, so there is not reason not to use them if they meet the requirements.

I will look into those components more thoroughly and see if it makes sense, and reread your thread with a new understanding.

I don't know CCDCommander (using NINA at the moment), but I will cefrtainly check it out.

old_eyes

[steppenwolf]

My pleasure - I should add that in my suggested solution, the LesveDome system already relies on the presence of a Velleman K8055 USB interface so you *may* need two of these cards - one to satisfy the 'LesveDome control' (which can be simply set up for ROR use) and one for all the additional items that you may want to switch on and off. I suspect that you will find this article of great interest!

[old_eyes]

On 10/02/2020 at 14:02, steppenwolf said:

My pleasure - I should add that in my suggested solution, the LesveDome system already relies on the presence of a Velleman K8055 USB interface so you *may* need two of these cards - one to satisfy the 'LesveDome control' (which can be simply set up for ROR use) and one for all the additional items that you may want to switch on and off. I suspect that you will find this article of great interest!

Thanks Steve. I had already found that article, but was not quite clear how it worked. That all slips into place now.

I have ordered a VM110 module and will play with it to find out a) how it works, and b) whether I can control it from my astro-sequencing software (currently NINA). If not I can test it out with other popular software. It may well be that since I don't need all the dome control stuff in Lesvedome, I can manage with one board and a simpler interface. I will count up how many sensing inputs and control outputs I need.

[old_eyes]

Woo-hoo! A VM110N just arrived for me to play with. All I need now is the time to play!

Get the digital signalling right and then I can add a relay board to actually do the switching

I am thinking of trying this with Voyager/Viking. At the moment I am using NINA, but it doesn't look like it really handles observatory automation. To be fair, the leaders of the project are pretty clear that they want to get all the actual imaging stuff right before they worry about observatory control.

Voyager on the other hand seems to be all ready to go, including rain and cloud-sensor integration.

It will be worth downloading the trial to see how Voyager works in comaprison to NINA. I like NINA - the autofocus is a delight, but Voyager is supposed to be pretty good at focus as well.

We shall see!

[steppenwolf]

Excellent news - the control board is a great piece of kit for both experimenting and for a permanent solution.

[martin_h]

I too use LesveDome control to run my ROR using the circuit shown on their website. I use SGP to orchestrate the running, but its nice to have a backup(just in case). Like Steve I use the Cloudwatcher system for weather monitoring, and inbuilt to that unit is a simple relay which i connect across the "close" portion of the motor control. that way if the computer hangs, the roof will close on an unsafe weather situation.

[skybadger]

I've written an ascom relay control that uses the alpaca interface for wireless control. Currently the hardware is on the bench while I complete the same approach for the dome controller. It means you can plug any commercial relay board into the ascom switch model. 

It'll be doing the same for heater control, in ascom, it's a variable switch....

Mike.

[old_eyes]

On 27/02/2020 at 07:42, skybadger said:

I've written an ascom relay control that uses the alpaca interface for wireless control. Currently the hardware is on the bench while I complete the same approach for the dome controller. It means you can plug any commercial relay board into the ascom switch model. 

It'll be doing the same for heater control, in ascom, it's a variable switch....

Mike.

Excellent news Mike. I will keep an eye out for that.