Pier and Pier Base Construction

[Bukko]

Be careful trying to bend this stuff in a pipe bending machine...

It is pretty strong and often high tensile so if the machine is for copper, then it might break. If designed for bending steel and is hydraulic, then no problem. Hopefully they know what they are doing. If in any doubt, have them warm it up and hit it with a hammer in a vice.

Gordon.

[souls33k3r]

3 minutes ago, Bukko said:

Be careful trying to bend this stuff in a pipe bending machine...

It is pretty strong and often high tensile so if the machine is for copper, then it might break. If designed for bending steel and is hydraulic, then no problem. Hopefully they know what they are doing. If in any doubt, have them warm it up and hit it with a hammer in a vice.

Gordon.

Wise words. Thank you sir will make sure of this.

[Davey-T]

I've bent it in a big vice with a big hammer, be careful though as it will probably bounce off and come came and hit you 

Dave

[souls33k3r]

14 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

I've bent it in a big vice with a big hammer, be careful though as it will probably bounce off and come came and hit you 

Dave

I can't remember where i saw it (must've been youtube i reckon) where a threaded rod was placed in between two pieces of steel pipe and pulled on one of those pipes to get the bed. Not sure M16s are going to be that easy to do

 

[souls33k3r]

Going to place an order shortly for the ballast and concrete. Keeping it a 4:1 mix so that is 20 bags of ballast and 5 bags of cement.

 

[spillage]

depending on your storage facilities it may be worth getting the cement that is in the plastic bags rather than the paper ones. I have left the ones in plastic outside for months and it has been fine to use.

[souls33k3r]

1 minute ago, spillage said:

depending on your storage facilities it may be worth getting the cement that is in the plastic bags rather than the paper ones. I have left the ones in plastic outside for months and it has been fine to use.

Well whatever i buy, i'm expecting it to use it by this weekend. It will be stored in the shed until the weekend. Plus this is what wickes does any way

Edited July 2, 2019 by souls33k3r

[souls33k3r]

Was about to hit the buy button on Wickes and the delivery charge was £35 which brought in the total to £99.

A quick call to a local building supplies shop and they quoted me £71 including delivery but the problem was they needed to be paid upfront. Their shop closes at 5:30pm and i don't finish work until 6pm. While trying to ask them if i can pay them on Saturday just before the delivery, i heard someone talking in Punjabi in the background so politely asked him if he can speak Punjabi as well to which he said yes. A minute later in to the conversation, the guy agreed for the payment to be made either using a card machine or cash at the time of delivery. Result  

[souls33k3r]

Just popped over to Screwfix and bought these M16, 300mm long threaded bolts. 

Never realised how heavy these would be collectively. 

Just to give you an idea how thick these are. Nearly as thick as my fingers. 

[Bukko]

2 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

Just popped over to Screwfix and bought these M16, 300mm long threaded bolts. 

Never realised how heavy these would be collectively. 

Just to give you an idea how thick these are. Nearly as thick as my fingers. 

Perfect.

Gordon.

[souls33k3r]

5 minutes ago, Bukko said:

Perfect.

Gordon.

Sweet as! 

Now one quick question, how much gap between the base plate and the concrete should I aim for really? The reason why I ask is because I was over at screwfix and they had 3mm thick ones only. 

[Bukko]

39 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

Sweet as! 

Now one quick question, how much gap between the base plate and the concrete should I aim for really? The reason why I ask is because I was over at screwfix and they had 3mm thick ones only. 

Ask 10 different people, get 10 different answers...

A single washer should be enough, if the surface is flat. If not, then its best to pack the lowest point with another washer.

For what it's worth, I secured my piers between nuts and washers; from the ground up, there is a nut, then a washer.. Then the pier, then another washer and finally a top nut.

I know there is no technical need for the pier to be vertical, but from an engineering point of view, it is important.

The pier can be levelled on the four bottom nuts. then the top four can be used to tighten it down. It really does need to be a minimum distance and pull it down tight. Two spanners for each corner, hold the bottom nut still and then tighten the top one.

All I added was some sand/cement mortar under the pier to improve the rigidity of the system.

Hope this helps.

Gordon.

[JamesF]

A few thoughts from me...

Bending M16 rod will be a pig of a job without the right tools, but a gentle curve along part of the length will be sufficient.  Anything so it isn't straight and therefore can't turn in the finished concrete, really.  Failing that I'd probably lock a 50mm square washer between two nuts at one end and bury that in the concrete.

It's a good idea to use a post or a bit of wood to tamp the concrete down.  After each mix you pour into the hole wouldn't be a bad idea.  It helps to settle the mixture into all the nooks and crannies rather than leaving bubbles.  Particularly important when you've put your threaded rods in and want it to take up all the space around them.

Bracing on the pier: I bet many people have no idea that they can justify in engineering terms whether it's required or not.  I have seen youtube videos made by people trying to sell very expensive piers who spout an utter load of rubbish about it.  Really it comes down to the thickness of the steel, the quality of the welding and, probably most important of all, the diameter of the pier.  Diameter trumps pretty much everything when it comes to resisting deflection.  It doesn't even make a whole heap of difference if the pier is solid or a tube, so don't feel compelled to fill it with anything.  It is possible to calculate the deflection in a steel tube of a given length and thickness when a given force is applied at one end, but I can't recall how to do it.  You may be able to find a well-presented posting about it on CN though (from some years back).  As for whether it "rings" or not, well, if you don't go smacking it with a hammer when you're imaging that's unlikely to be an issue.  Personally, if it's easy for you to add them later if you find it's necessary,  then I'd say do without for the time being.  If it will be a pain to add them later and you're cautious, perhaps it's more sensible to add them at the start.

And for nuts, bolts and similar hardware, ebay can be a very handy source for small-volume orders.  I and others on SGL have been very happy with the service from Kay's, though I've used others too (BoltWorld spring to mind).

James

[souls33k3r]

20 hours ago, Bukko said:

Ask 10 different people, get 10 different answers...

A single washer should be enough, if the surface is flat. If not, then its best to pack the lowest point with another washer.

For what it's worth, I secured my piers between nuts and washers; from the ground up, there is a nut, then a washer.. Then the pier, then another washer and finally a top nut.

I know there is no technical need for the pier to be vertical, but from an engineering point of view, it is important.

The pier can be levelled on the four bottom nuts. then the top four can be used to tighten it down. It really does need to be a minimum distance and pull it down tight. Two spanners for each corner, hold the bottom nut still and then tighten the top one.

All I added was some sand/cement mortar under the pier to improve the rigidity of the system.

Hope this helps.

Gordon.

Cheers Gordon, this sounds like a plan and i appreciate you telling me the formation of the nuts and washers on the threaded rod. This really is helpful. I do have enough nuts (well i've got 10 of them with 2 to spare) so can look in to the exact formation.

19 hours ago, JamesF said:

A few thoughts from me...

Bending M16 rod will be a pig of a job without the right tools, but a gentle curve along part of the length will be sufficient.  Anything so it isn't straight and therefore can't turn in the finished concrete, really.  Failing that I'd probably lock a 50mm square washer between two nuts at one end and bury that in the concrete.

It's a good idea to use a post or a bit of wood to tamp the concrete down.  After each mix you pour into the hole wouldn't be a bad idea.  It helps to settle the mixture into all the nooks and crannies rather than leaving bubbles.  Particularly important when you've put your threaded rods in and want it to take up all the space around them.

Bracing on the pier: I bet many people have no idea that they can justify in engineering terms whether it's required or not.  I have seen youtube videos made by people trying to sell very expensive piers who spout an utter load of rubbish about it.  Really it comes down to the thickness of the steel, the quality of the welding and, probably most important of all, the diameter of the pier.  Diameter trumps pretty much everything when it comes to resisting deflection.  It doesn't even make a whole heap of difference if the pier is solid or a tube, so don't feel compelled to fill it with anything.  It is possible to calculate the deflection in a steel tube of a given length and thickness when a given force is applied at one end, but I can't recall how to do it.  You may be able to find a well-presented posting about it on CN though (from some years back).  As for whether it "rings" or not, well, if you don't go smacking it with a hammer when you're imaging that's unlikely to be an issue.  Personally, if it's easy for you to add them later if you find it's necessary,  then I'd say do without for the time being.  If it will be a pain to add them later and you're cautious, perhaps it's more sensible to add them at the start.

And for nuts, bolts and similar hardware, ebay can be a very handy source for small-volume orders.  I and others on SGL have been very happy with the service from Kay's, though I've used others too (BoltWorld spring to mind).

James

Cheers for the very detailed reply James. I brought in the M16 rods in to work and was told that the machine that they had would not be able to take in short rods like this so basically i now have to figure out a way to have these bolts sunk in straight. Also a bit unfortunate that i only have 10 x M16 nuts so i'm short of at least 6 to lock in a square washer and since i'm pouring in the concrete this weekend, there isn't enough time to order it now
I will definitely be using a timber (4x2) to tamp the concrete down. You do make a valid point about the whole pier construction, i am definitely not looking to over engineer it but rather keep it simple. As for the fins, like you said, it could possibly be a pain to add them later but that is exactly what i will have to settle for now UNLESS in between now and the pier gets the hammerite paint job done i find something then yes otherwise no.
Funny you should mention Boltworld, i've just ordered the nuts from these guys and in small (very reasonably priced as well i must admit) quantity.

[JamesF]

A builders merchant may well have M16 nuts.  According to their website, even B&Q carry them.

James

[souls33k3r]

2 hours ago, JamesF said:

A builders merchant may well have M16 nuts.  According to their website, even B&Q carry them.

James

B&Q is a bit far from my home but good shout on the builders merchant front, will check with them on Saturday

[Helen]

My pier did ring - enough to be annoying (and I'm partially deaf!) - so I retro-filled it with play sand 🙂

Helen

[souls33k3r]

 

55 minutes ago, Helen said:

My pier did ring - enough to be annoying (and I'm partially deaf!) - so I retro-filled it with play sand 🙂

Helen

I will have a hole in the pier so if it does, then I'll do just that

[Davey-T]

2 hours ago, souls33k3r said:

B&Q is a bit far from my home but good shout on the builders merchant front, will check with them on Saturday

Nuts and bolts in B&Q are a nightmare, lots of sizes they say they've got are empty and a complete muddle from folk chucking them in the wrong boxes.

Dave

[Kev M]

Might be better off at Screwfix

 

[souls33k3r]

48 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

Nuts and bolts in B&Q are a nightmare, lots of sizes they say they've got are empty and a complete muddle from folk chucking them in the wrong boxes.

Dave

I agree with that. Been there once trying to find the correct nuts and ended up with quite a few wrong size ones. 

39 minutes ago, Kev M said:

Might be better off at Screwfix

 

Yeah they do them but only in a pack of 50. Fleabay is the only better option. I've just recently bought a pack of 10. They also had them in a pack of 4 but because I'm only a few days shy of pouting the concrete in, I won't be able to get hold of them. So will try my local builders merchant on Saturday because by the time I come, they've already closed their shop by then.

[DaveS]

When I bolted my pier down I drilled 18 mm holes and dropped a resin capsule down (After brushing out the holes) before banging the stud down.

[souls33k3r]

15 minutes ago, DaveS said:

When I bolted my pier down I drilled 18 mm holes and dropped a resin capsule down (After brushing out the holes) before banging the stud down.

When you said banging the studs, you actually meant banging them and not making sure they screw in create groves in the resin mixture? 

Would you mind telling me what's a good resin? I see some are cheap and some expensive. Don't know which to buy. This is going to be my plan C if plan A which is trying to bend the bolts don't work and plan B which is to weld some fins to it doesn't either. 

[DaveS]

I ordered 10 packs of 16mm studs and capsules from Screwfix, they were the Rawelplug ones.

I dropped the capsules into the holes, banged the studs in with a heavy hammer, then used the driving socket provided with the studs to drive them in further using an ordinary cordless drill.

The 18 mm holes were drilled with my 1500 watt sds drill and a long bit. I had to grip the motor between my knees and put my whole weight on the drill with both hands.

[bottletopburly]

Are you mixing concrete by hand or mixer , don’t mix by hand  electric mixer hire cheep as chips and easy on the back , 👍

Edited July 4, 2019 by bottletopburly