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Pier and Pier Base Construction


souls33k3r

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2 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

Need more chemical to fill the bigger hole, my three legged one has 2 M12 on each leg 6" deep, have you got a chunky SDS percussion drill for the holes ?

Dave

Well I was initially thinking of drilling the concrete but then thought why not make a template and sink it in the concrete while it's wet. 

I found these bad boys https://www.screwfix.com/p/easyfix-bzp-steel-threaded-rods-m16-x-300mm-5-pack/31489 (These come on M10 and M12 sizes too) which will be bent in L shape. 

Are these any good? 

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1 hour ago, souls33k3r said:

So true about the rabbit hole. 

But would M16 be better than using M12s or 14s in any practical way? 

I think it would all depend on how you bolt the whole lot together...I know many here do not like the rats nest used to mate the mount to a pier, if you do similar between the pier and foundation, I would think you would amplify the problems associated with it.

My second home-built pier was out of 12mm steel top and bottom with 8" nominal bore, heavy walled pipe. It did have an initial rigidity problem, until I grouted between the bolts and the foundation. This is how I always do them now and have no issue with movement through the pier and footings. othmy piers are the same construction, with the longer one for the ME2 also sporting some fins around 40cm long. I really don't think they will add much, but they were free with the pipe, base and top plate, so only the cost of a few welding sticks to fit.

The bolts really only hold things together until the cement hardens so in my case, I could probably get away with something a lot smaller. But the pier weighs in around 100kg, so it would be impractical to really test how small I could go....

Have you decided how you want to secure the pier down yet?

Gordon.

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1 hour ago, Bukko said:

I think it would all depend on how you bolt the whole lot together...I know many here do not like the rats nest used to mate the mount to a pier, if you do similar between the pier and foundation, I would think you would amplify the problems associated with it.

My second home-built pier was out of 12mm steel top and bottom with 8" nominal bore, heavy walled pipe. It did have an initial rigidity problem, until I grouted between the bolts and the foundation. This is how I always do them now and have no issue with movement through the pier and footings. othmy piers are the same construction, with the longer one for the ME2 also sporting some fins around 40cm long. I really don't think they will add much, but they were free with the pipe, base and top plate, so only the cost of a few welding sticks to fit.

The bolts really only hold things together until the cement hardens so in my case, I could probably get away with something a lot smaller. But the pier weighs in around 100kg, so it would be impractical to really test how small I could go....

Have you decided how you want to secure the pier down yet?

Gordon.

Yeah mine isn't going to have any rats nest neither at the top nor at the bottom. The base plate will sit flush with the ground. That's was always the way I was going to go. 

Sorry coming back to the same point, what do you think about these https://www.screwfix.com/p/easyfix-bzp-steel-threaded-rods-m16-x-300mm-5-pack/31489? It doesn't specify the strength or whatever the technical term is or is something like this any better? https://www.toolstation.com/stainless-steel-threaded-bar/p37920

@Davey-Twould love to have your opinion on this as well please mate. 

What I don't want is something that will rust, break (especially when I tighten the nuts) or any mishap once they go in the concrete. 

 

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Be aware that not all stainless steel is rustproof, the first lot I bought went rusty while I was still assembling the top plate so luckily hadn't got as far as gluing any in the ground the second lot I bought from Kayfast  was fine, no sign of rust, the first lot from another source with the same spec was also magnetic.

On your sketch you show nuts holding it down, if you leave the studs over length  after bolting down with nyloc nuts you can finish them off with stainless steel dome nuts for a neater finish.

Dave

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Go for either stainless steel or galvanized.
I used galvanized threaded rods on a project where stainless got too expensive because of needing 10-12m of M16.
https://www.speedyfixings.com/product/m16-stainless-316-a4-threaded-rod/  (A4 Stainless is more corfrosion resistant than A2)
https://www.speedyfixings.com/product/m16-8-8-high-tensile-galvanised-threaded-rod/

Edited by Xplode
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23 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

Be aware that not all stainless steel is rustproof, the first lot I bought went rusty while I was still assembling the top plate so luckily hadn't got as far as gluing any in the ground the second lot I bought from Kayfast  was fine, no sign of rust, the first lot from another source with the same spec was also magnetic.

On your sketch you show nuts holding it down, if you leave the studs over length  after bolting down with nyloc nuts you can finish them off with stainless steel dome nuts for a neater finish.

Dave

Now how to choose which one to buy? Why can't things be simple and easy? 😂

The sketch was drawn by Alex and he did a fantastic job at representing exactly what I wanted it to look. So are you saying that it doesn't matter which of the above two link rods goes in the concrete it will be fine, it's just what is exposed to the air that needs to be properly wrapped up with better nuts and finish off the the dome? Or how about paint some of the hammerite on the top of the nuts and the threaded rod? (maybe it's not a good idea afterall because everything might just be super glued together when I come to take the pier off :D)

22 minutes ago, Xplode said:

Go for either stainless steel or galvanized.
I used galvanized threaded rods on a project where stainless got too expensive because of needing 10-12m of M16.
https://www.speedyfixings.com/product/m16-stainless-316-a4-threaded-rod/  (A4 Stainless is more corfrosion resistant than A2)
https://www.speedyfixings.com/product/m16-8-8-high-tensile-galvanised-threaded-rod/

One of the above threaded rods is a stainless steel and the other one is BZP steel. I am none the wiser, which one do you think is better? There is no mention of which one has what strength 

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8.8 is a little stronger than A4, but the small difference doesn't matter for your use.
Go for the A4 stainless...galvvanised is more for when you can't get stainless or you need a lot so there's a large price difference.

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I don't think it matters which type of studbar you choose - stainless or plated...

There is a good cost saving going for plated, so I woud have no problem with that. The only minor issue is the plated bar will rust where it is cut. If you get two lengths and cut it down to make the 4 ties, keep the uncut end above ground and it will be fine.

This really does not need to be complicated; there are loads of good ideas on how to make it look good, but I guess it depends on how much effort you feel the need to go to...

For me, having some of the stud showing adds a certain industrial look to it and I actually think it looks good like that...

Gordon.

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4 hours ago, Bukko said:

I don't think it matters which type of studbar you choose - stainless or plated...

There is a good cost saving going for plated, so I woud have no problem with that. The only minor issue is the plated bar will rust where it is cut. If you get two lengths and cut it down to make the 4 ties, keep the uncut end above ground and it will be fine.

This really does not need to be complicated; there are loads of good ideas on how to make it look good, but I guess it depends on how much effort you feel the need to go to...

For me, having some of the stud showing adds a certain industrial look to it and I actually think it looks good like that...

Gordon.


If you look at the link i posted you can see they apply cold galvanizing to protect the ends of the cut threaded rods :)

I agree with you that it looks better with some of the studs showing, i have to say regular dome nuts rarely looks good.

When we're speaking about industrial i've found industrual electrical enclosures  with DIN rails, DIN rail power supplies etc makes for a really great electrical setup, it's great to have everything bolted down and it doesn't look bad either.
I don't like at all the scopes with pc, tons of cables etc all on top of them.
 

Here's the cabinet at my co-owned remote observatory (could be tidied up a lot)

14110350_MainBoardconnections.thumb.jpg.4638c5e5d50fa56007c4ce5790d8805f.jpg

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Cheers for the valuable advice @Xplode and @Bukko. On hand i would like to keep the cost down and yet not compromise on the integrity of the pier. I guess i'm less worried about the rust because i can always paint it with a coat of hammerite metal paint.

I'll be looking in to the M16 threaded rods which might be a bit of pain to bend but bend i shall nonetheless even if they are slightly.

Also in other news, i came home and saw my neighbour outside so thought i should thank him once again for offering his help to which he asked how i got on with hiring the cement mixer, i told him that i can get it but will need to go and grab it to which he replied "Ah, don't worry about it, it's not a massive job so we will mix it by hand and ourselves it should only take an hour or so" 😲 .... i thought i should give him a fair chance to re-evaluate his statement i said "Do you want to see how big the hole is?" which he agreed and said "Yeah that's not a problem at all". I then asked him how much ballast he reckons i'll need and he said "Probably about 20 bags" ... bloody spot on because that's exactly how much it was required. 

Oh so he reckons we should do it this weekend so hopefully everything will be moving along nicely and quickly :)

 

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I know bending M16 bar is not easy, it will take a bit of heat and a big hammer in a vice... Probably a very good reason people go for the M12 option.

Alternatively, if you get a decent pack of M16 nuts, you can simply lock them together in pairs and embed them in the concrete. This will hold more than enough for you to tighten the pier down. Let's say 3 or 4 pairs of nuts per stud unless someone has a calculation that says more or less is required.

Good luck hand mixing that lot. for sure, it will count as heavy work, which is supposed to be good for you. Please let us know how it goes !!!

Gordon.

 

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5 minutes ago, Bukko said:

Alternatively, if you get a decent pack of M16 nuts, you can simply lock them together in pairs and embed them in the concrete. This will hold more than enough for you to tighten the pier down.

I'm not sure i follow the above statement. The embedding them in the concrete bit. Trying to visualise it in my head (because i've never seen this) but i can't. Is there an image or something i can take a look at to better understand what you mean?

You're quite right mate, they will be a bit of a pain to bend but it makes sense to go for these. Mind if i ask what bolt size you used for your pier?

Cheers for the luck because i know i'll need it but i have full faith in my neighbour, the dude is nothing short of superman :)

 

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10 minutes ago, Bukko said:

Alternatively, if you get a decent pack of M16 nuts, you can simply lock them together in pairs and embed them in the concrete. This will hold more than enough for you to tighten the pier down. Let's say 3 or 4 pairs of nuts per stud unless someone has a calculation that says more or less is required.

You can also use square washers held by a couple of nuts and just add as many as you need.

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This is mine with dome nut keeps all that muck thrown up by the rain out of the thread.

It's may also be an idea to get some thick stainless steel washers to drop over the studs under the pier base plate to make sure it's not balanced on a bump in the concrete, also help with shimming it to get it upright if needed

Dave

Dome-nut.png.66e23f0de763e95c77fcfa19288e9a2b.png

 

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14 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

I'm not sure i follow the above statement. The embedding them in the concrete bit. Trying to visualise it in my head (because i've never seen this) but i can't. Is there an image or something i can take a look at to better understand what you mean?

You're quite right mate, they will be a bit of a pain to bend but it makes sense to go for these. Mind if i ask what bolt size you used for your pier?

Cheers for the luck because i know i'll need it but i have full faith in my neighbour, the dude is nothing short of superman :)

 

Here is a snap of a piece of M16 studding with some nuts on it.

I fitted some big washers, kind of how Mark was commenting on adding some square washers.

Hope it helps.

Gordon.

IMG_5460.jpg

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If you already have you pier then you can use a bit of ply wood as a template. Mark up and drill out the holes in the ply so it matches the pier then bolt the rods to the ply. Sink this down into the concrete up to the ply us a level to make sure its all level and then just remove the top nuts take away the board and your studs should be in the right place and level.

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18 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

This is mine with dome nut keeps all that muck thrown up by the rain out of the thread.

It's may also be an idea to get some thick stainless steel washers to drop over the studs under the pier base plate to make sure it's not balanced on a bump in the concrete, also help with shimming it to get it upright if needed

Dave

So i'm guessing the base plate resting on washers is going to be alright? i mean it doesn't loose the stability of the pier?

13 minutes ago, Bukko said:

Here is a snap of a piece of M16 studding with some nuts on it.

I fitted some big washers, kind of how Mark was commenting on adding some square washers.

Hope it helps.

Gordon.

 

Cheer for the image Gordon. Just need slight clarification if you don't mind.

So the nuts marked in red get sunk in to the concrete?

The base plate then rests on the nut and washer marked in yellow?

The nut marked in purple is to tighten the pier to the base plate?

IMG_5460.thumb.jpg.e47ca6d6f238589baa178fca9fa61c42.jpg.0cb5d2d5aa1b41768da618c8699b968b.jpg

6 minutes ago, spillage said:

If you already have you pier then you can use a bit of ply wood as a template. Mark up and drill out the holes in the ply so it matches the pier then bolt the rods to the ply. Sink this down into the concrete up to the ply us a level to make sure its all level and then just remove the top nuts take away the board and your studs should be in the right place and level.

Yes i will be using a template.

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3 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

So i'm guessing the base plate resting on washers is going to be alright? i mean it doesn't loose the stability of the pier?

Better resting on the area around the studs than on the concrete with an air gap on the studs.

None of my feet touch the ground they've all got washers on the studs.

Dave

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

Better resting on the area around the studs than on the concrete with an air gap on the studs.

None of my feet touch the ground they've all got washers on the studs.

Dave

But just so that i have this clear in my head, why is it not advisable to rest the base plate on the concrete? Thank God you mentioned that because otherwise i would going to do just that :)

Edited by souls33k3r
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15 minutes ago, souls33k3r said:

But just so that i have this clear in my head, why is it not advisable to rest the base plate on the concrete? Thank God you mentioned that because otherwise i would going to do just that :)

It's tricky to get the concrete perfectly flat and level, given the relatively small area of the pier base it doesn't take much to make the pier lean, also takes care of and mechanical discrepancies in the pier.

Dave

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1 minute ago, Davey-T said:

It's tricky to get the concrete perfectly flat and level, given the relatively small area of the pier base it doesn't take much to make the pier lean, also takes care of and mechanical discrepancies in the pier.

Dave

That's exactly what i thought but i wanted to be sure of that. 

I'm laughing my head off right now. These nuts and washers come in a pack of 50. I only need a handful lol

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From my picture, the plan was to bury the lot in the concrete. The hexagonal shape of the nuts improves the resistance to breaking free and the stud pulling out. The washers would also improve the adhesion to the concrete. The idea was to replicate the purpose of bending the stud.

Fixing the pier to the studs is another matter.

You would be extremely fortunate to get a perfectly flat concrete base. Even if you did, it would be worth considering the possibility that the pier baseplate might distort during welding... As Dave said, he maintains a small gap between the pier and the concrete, where I chose to fill the space with grout.

There is always more than one option...

Gordon.

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1 minute ago, Bukko said:

From my picture, the plan was to bury the lot in the concrete. The hexagonal shape of the nuts improves the resistance to breaking free and the stud pulling out. The washers would also improve the adhesion to the concrete. The idea was to replicate the purpose of bending the stud.

Fixing the pier to the studs is another matter.

You would be extremely fortunate to get a perfectly flat concrete base. Even if you did, it would be worth considering the possibility that the pier baseplate might distort during welding... As Dave said, he maintains a small gap between the pier and the concrete, where I chose to fill the space with grout.

There is always more than one option...

Gordon.

Ah i see ... it make total sense now.

I have just walked around our facilities (maintenance) department chaps and apparently we have a pipe bending machine at work that should work for bending the threaded rods.

I'm glad this is an on-going conversation with you fine chaps because there would've been a lot i could've done wrong so the washers idea is absolute pukka :)

 

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