Atik Cameras looking to buy QSI assets.

[steppenwolf]

2 hours ago, RayD said:

Btw I wasn't questioning the 96mm, that made perfect sense, only the fact that screwing a T-ring straight on would only offer 55mm, but seeing now it comes with an extender, that also now makes perfect sense.

I read it as nothing but a sensible query, Ray - on the face of it the numbers don't add up!

[Adam J]

Normally a larger company takes over a smaller one. As in general a smaller company can't afford to buy a larger one. So if atik are only paying 300k for the Astro imaging part of the company then that part is only worth 300k.

It is sad to hear the circumstances but it does not change the fact that for ATIK to be in a position to purchase the Astro imaging portion of QSI then ATIK are the larger of the two in this respect. The circumstances don't change the fact that if that it is correct QSI seem to be selling off a portion of their business at a bargain price if the 300k figure is correct. Seems to me that indicates they are dropping a less profitable part of the business. 

However, I can't find the information that you are referring to in respect to the full circumstances only forum rumors. So a like would be appreciated. 

7 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

I fervently hope that the astro camera market can remain in the hands of small specialists and that Europe will continue to have its share of them.  There are many reasons for my view, some outside the remit of SGL, but having to ship intercontinentally for service is never going to be an advantage. Also there is a relationship between customers and manufacturers within specialist communities which bring advantages to both sides.

Olly

I really hope you are correct as if my prediction comes true it's not good for us, but they need to compete with ZWO and QHY in the volume part of the market and at a competitive price point. Of not what will happen is ZWO and QHY will use the revenue from their high volume sales to make cheaper high end products. QHY have already started doing this with the QHY42 as one example. 

Incidently, yes there have been numerious revishions of the 1600 but I would say that both ATIK and ZWO coppied QHY in this respect, I note only a single revision of the QHY163....ATIK have not really brought anything new on the hardware side and actually have more back focus and no USB hub. 

Not trying to annoy people I am just realistic. 

[RayD]

13 minutes ago, Adam J said:

It is sad to hear the circumstances but it does not change the fact that for ATIK to be in a position to purchase the Astro imaging portion of QSI then ATIK are the larger of the two in this respect. The circumstances don't change the fact that if that it is correct QSI seem to be selling off a portion of their business at a bargain price if the 300k figure is correct. Seems to me that indicates they are dropping a less profitable part of the business. 

However, I can't find the information that you are referring to in respect to the full circumstances only forum rumors. So a like would be appreciated. 

I don't think it's as easy as that in a business such as this.  Neal Barry was the lead designer for QSI, so it is very possible that they simply no longer have the expertise in house to support this part of the business.  Also, so I'm led to believe, the astro imaging side was actually housed within a building on Neal's farm or ranch, so this could be mitigating factors towards them feeling they needed to sell the business assets.  

It is also worth noting that no-one is suggesting that SDI is buying a going concern or profitable business, they are proposing to purchase some of the business' assets, which could be physical, such as tooling or machines etc. or simply rights to patents and brands.

Here is a link to a statement released  to investors by SDI (Atik's parent company).

[Adam J]

10 minutes ago, RayD said:

I don't think it's as easy as that in a business such as this.  Neal Barry was the lead designer for QSI, so it is very possible that they simply no longer have the expertise in house to support this part of the business.  Also, so I'm led to believe, the astro imaging side was actually housed within a building on Neal's farm or ranch, so this could be mitigating factors towards them feeling they needed to sell the business assets.  

It is also worth noting that no-one is suggesting that SDI is buying a going concern or profitable business, they are proposing to purchase some of the business' assets, which could be physical, such as tooling or machines etc. or simply rights to patents.

Here is a link to a statement released  to investors by SDI (Atik's parent company).

Intellectual property is an important thing. As is brand reputation. I just think ATIK should be looking at the success of the 1600 with concern and focusing resources on the efficient development of additional CMOS cameras. I don't buy that the took there time developing the horizon while the competition racked it in. I think that they got caught off guard by the popularity of a CMOS sensor in an industry dominated by CCD. My evidence being that the only announced the horizon development 18 months after the 1600 release. 

[swag72]

2 minutes ago, Adam J said:

....... I just think ATIK should be looking at the success of the 1600 with concern and focusing resources on the efficient development of additional CMOS cameras. 

If Atik can get the CMOS sensors into the all in one package of the QSI then that would be a winner I reckon

[RayD]

2 minutes ago, swag72 said:

If Atik can get the CMOS sensors into the all in one package of the QSI then that would be a winner I reckon

I would think that is the intent here.  If this is the case, as I hope it is, then Atik won't be looking at the ASI1600 as a threat at all, as they will be looking at targeting a different market.

Commercially a very smart move I think.

[Adam J]

Just now, swag72 said:

If Atik can get the CMOS sensors into the all in one package of the QSI then that would be a winner I reckon

I do agree with that. But they need to do it at a price we can all afford. One attraction of the new CMOS is it's relative affordability but ATIK placed it at the same price point as the 383L+. The sensor is cheaper, yet the have not passed that onto the customer.  

[FLO]

Out of respect to Neal Barry's family I don't want to comment or speculate on what led to QSI's tragic ending. They grew rapidly and burned brightly for a short period. Their designs and manufacturing ability were highly regarded so it is understandable Atik are interested in acquiring them. I hope they succeed. 

Steve 

[swag72]

Just now, Adam J said:

I do agree with that. But they need to do it at a price we can all afford. One attraction of the new CMOS is it's relative affordability but ATIK placed it at the same price point as the 383L+. The sensor is cheaper, yet the have not passed that onto the customer.  

I guess that depends if they want to keep the two brands separate as I said at the beginning of the thread. There's plenty of folks who pay QSI prices.

[RayD]

7 minutes ago, Adam J said:

Intellectual property is an important thing. As is brand reputation. I just think ATIK should be looking at the success of the 1600 with concern and focusing resources on the efficient development of additional CMOS cameras. 

Brand and reputation is pretty much everything.  Cost is way down on the list if the stuff you sell is not working for the application it is intended.  

I think Atik will be targeting premium, so may not even be looking at the same audience as ZWO.

Of course all this is speculation as nothing is finalised yet, but the potential of Atik quality and UK support in a QSI package is something I relish.

[RayD]

18 minutes ago, Adam J said:

I do agree with that. But they need to do it at a price we can all afford. One attraction of the new CMOS is it's relative affordability but ATIK placed it at the same price point as the 383L+. The sensor is cheaper, yet the have not passed that onto the customer.  

That is a bit like saying FLI need to make all their cameras affordable to us all.  At £30k+ for their flagship equipment that simply isn't going to happen, but then they are not making cameras for a cost driven market, but choose to sell fewer high quality items with better margins per item.

If Atik can target costs around the Moravian, maybe even a bit higher, like the QSI was, then it could potentially be a huge success.

I wish them well, of course noting the tragic circumstances which has led to where we are.

[FLO]

13 minutes ago, RayD said:

I think Atik will be targeting premium... 

I think so too, so I sincerely hope they succeed with the acquisition. 

Steve 

[steppenwolf]

49 minutes ago, Adam J said:

However, I can't find the information that you are referring to in respect to the full circumstances only forum rumors. So a like would be appreciated. 

Here you go, a link to the original release and the text therein:-

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/QSI-ccd/conversations/messages/24876

It is with profound sadness and grief that QSI must announce the unexpected passing away of our founder, CEO, and chief architect, Neal Barry.  Neal was brilliant, innovated scientist and engineer with a love of Astronomy and astro-imaging.  His vision to build a better scientific camera resulted in the creation of Quantum Scientific Imaging over 12 years ago.  Neal’s drive, leadership and guidance of QSI was instrumental to the growth of QSI, development of the 500 and 600 series cameras, and the establishment of QSI as a market leader in Astro-imaging.

QSI’s board of directors has decided to put manufacturing operations on hold as we restructure QSI.  QSI will not be accepting further orders for new cameras at this time. We ask for your patience and understanding while the company works through this difficult transition.

In lieu of flowers, Neal’s family requests that a donation be made to a charity of your choice. Neal and his family were strong supporters of the Wounded Warrior Project. If you also wanted to support their mission helping physically and emotionally wounded veterans, that would be an extra-special tribute.

====================================================================================

Q: Will QSI be closing it’s doors?

A: We are in the process of restructuring the company and charting the future of the organization.  It will take us some time to go through this process. We ask for your patience and understanding while we work through this process.

Q: How will I get my camera repaired in the future?

A: QSI continues to offer repairs services for the time being.  We are looking at a number of options for long term repair support, including working with third parties to provide factory authorized service.

Q: What about my warranty?

A:  QSI will honor the existing warranties using our factory repair facilities or factory certified third parties.

Q: What is the best way to contact QSI?

A:  Please send email to info@.... For technical support, please contact support@...
 

Q: I have a camera that has been returned to QSI for repair.  What is the status of my camera?

A: QSI support will contact you when your camera is ready for shipment back to you.
 

Q: I have an open order.  Will it be fulfilled?

A: If you have a committed shipment date from QSI, your order will be fulfilled.
 

Q: What about technical support?

A:  We encourage you to first use online resources to find a resolution to your question.  The QSI website, the yahoo group QSI-CCD, and cloudynights.com are all good resources.  You can also send email to support@... for technical questions not related to sales.

 

[Sp@ce_d]

26 minutes ago, swag72 said:

If Atik can get the CMOS sensors into the all in one package of the QSI then that would be a winner I reckon

Yes so much easier to deal with.. after using one & going back to separate spacing issues with camera-FW-OAG you really appreciate it.

Incidentally, I know I'm going OT but as I mentioned it as part of my previous post.. My 1600 arrived today. Coupling up to an Atik EFW2 I think I'm measuring less than 13mm from AR window surface to Filter. Thats less than the backfocus of the Horizon on its own... jus sayin..

[Adam J]

19 minutes ago, Sp@ce_d said:

Yes so much easier to deal with.. after using one & going back to separate spacing issues with camera-FW-OAG you really appreciate it.

Incidentally, I know I'm going OT but as I mentioned it as part of my previous post.. My 1600 arrived today. Coupling up to an Atik EFW2 I think I'm measuring less than 13mm from AR window surface to Filter. Thats less than the backfocus of the Horizon on its own... jus sayin..

Exactly people keep telling me that the Horizon is a higher end product. Not yet been told what makes it higher end though. Also purchasing from the likes of FLO makes any potential issue with returning a faulty camera seem less daunting. 

[steppenwolf]

38 minutes ago, FLO said:

I think so too, so I sincerely hope they succeed with the acquisition. 

Yes, I do too - it's a potential win - win - win. A win for existing QSI owners, a win for potential new QSI owners and a win for Atik as it gives them another very interesting string to their bow.

[ollypenrice]

3 hours ago, Adam J said:

Normally a larger company takes over a smaller one. As in general a smaller company can't afford to buy a larger one. So if atik are only paying 300k for the Astro imaging part of the company then that part is only worth 300k.

It is sad to hear the circumstances but it does not change the fact that for ATIK to be in a position to purchase the Astro imaging portion of QSI then ATIK are the larger of the two in this respect. The circumstances don't change the fact that if that it is correct QSI seem to be selling off a portion of their business at a bargain price if the 300k figure is correct. Seems to me that indicates they are dropping a less profitable part of the business. 

However, I can't find the information that you are referring to in respect to the full circumstances only forum rumors. So a like would be appreciated. 

I really hope you are correct as if my prediction comes true it's not good for us, but they need to compete with ZWO and QHY in the volume part of the market and at a competitive price point. Of not what will happen is ZWO and QHY will use the revenue from their high volume sales to make cheaper high end products. QHY have already started doing this with the QHY42 as one example. 

Incidently, yes there have been numerious revishions of the 1600 but I would say that both ATIK and ZWO coppied QHY in this respect, I note only a single revision of the QHY163....ATIK have not really brought anything new on the hardware side and actually have more back focus and no USB hub. 

Not trying to annoy people I am just realistic. 

My experience of USB hubs (as a host rather than as an owner) gives me no desire whatever to become an owner. Boy oh boy, the fun we've had. Ignore me, I'm an incorrigable rustic!

Olly

[Adam J]

15 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

My experience of USB hubs (as a host rather than as an owner) gives me no desire whatever to become an owner. Boy oh boy, the fun we've had. Ignore me, I'm an incorrigable rustic!

Olly

It's important to get a hub that maintains virtual comport settings the cheaper ones will not. Would hope one incorporated into Astro gear would. 

[ollypenrice]

1 hour ago, Adam J said:

It's important to get a hub that maintains virtual comport settings the cheaper ones will not. Would hope one incorporated into Astro gear would. 

All I can say is that I've sent quite a few back and also seen viditing on-camera hubs acting up. Of course 'quite a few' remains an anecdotal sample so maybe we've just been unlucky.

Olly

[Davey-T]

No particular drum to beat as owner of Atik, QSI and Point Grey cameras, for all these and other manufacturers the astro' camera business is a small part of the main.

No doubt most people would be hard pressed to distinguish between an image taken with an Atik camera and a Skywatcher scope and one taken with a QSI camera and a Tak.

As R.W.Emerson is supposed to have said " Build a better mousetrap and people will beat a path to your door " always supposing they can justify the expense of your new mousetrap, if it cost twice as much as the old one and still catches the same number of mice it's debateable.

Dave

 

[JamesF]

As it's been touched on by others...  Without wishing to pick on a single manufacturer as there are a few, I have for a while been wondering about the apparent proliferation of cameras based on different sensors that have come to the market over the last few years and struggling to justify to myself whether there's really a need for quite so many.  I have some consternation that it may lead to some having quite a short shelf life and leave owners without support after far less time than might reasonably be expected.  For example, I see the drivers for one brand actually support over forty different camera models.

Obviously different cameras (and perhaps more specifically, different sensors) are suited to different applications and it's perhaps helpful not to have to fight with reducers and barlows and other parts of the imaging train to try to get close to one's preferred imaging scale, but have things gone a bit far?

James

[RobertI]

On 4 January 2018 at 16:33, swag72 said:

I really hope that they keep the two brands separate - Like Toyota and Lexus, or Nissan and Infiniti.

Based on their statement it seems like they will be keeping the QSI brand going, unless I have misunderstood:

"We hope they will provide some confidence to QSI customers that the QSI brand will have a bright future within a group that understands Astronomy."

Looking at the SDI group accounts it seems like the revenue from the US has slipped, so this may also be a good opportunity to increase it using the QSI brand. Just speculation of course, there is always more to these things than meets the eye.

[ollypenrice]

4 hours ago, JamesF said:

As it's been touched on by others...  Without wishing to pick on a single manufacturer as there are a few, I have for a while been wondering about the apparent proliferation of cameras based on different sensors that have come to the market over the last few years and struggling to justify to myself whether there's really a need for quite so many.  I have some consternation that it may lead to some having quite a short shelf life and leave owners without support after far less time than might reasonably be expected.  For example, I see the drivers for one brand actually support over forty different camera models.

Obviously different cameras (and perhaps more specifically, different sensors) are suited to different applications and it's perhaps helpful not to have to fight with reducers and barlows and other parts of the imaging train to try to get close to one's preferred imaging scale, but have things gone a bit far?

James

This is an interesting set of points. Because, throughout my life, I've been into minority pursuits, I've been a customer of minority providers. I think that too many are bad for the customer, just as are too few. How one might define, let alone arrive at, the ideal number I have no idea.

Olly

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

This is an interesting set of points. Because, throughout my life, I've been into minority pursuits, I've been a customer of minority providers. I think that too many are bad for the customer, just as are too few. How one might define, let alone arrive at, the ideal number I have no idea.

Olly

Thinking aloud, this seems like one of those situations where the near-bespoke hand-assembled top-end kit is potentially pitched against the mass produced.
I know a company have avoided this with big investment in CNC to produce a low-volume product with great repeatability (they can make spares for 20 year old kit, and it fits).

The irony can be that mass produced, jig built products can end up being more reliable with full interchangeability of parts than the bespoke where parts are individually hand fitted. Some people will pay for the premium product, but when the premium costs 10 times as much  but is ,say, only twice as good it's market will shrink fast.

Once the market is big enough that mass production makes sense, though, the specialists need to continually innovate or wither on the vine.

In this situation Atik need more than incorporating the QSI ideas and philosophy into their products.  They need to have a steady evolving line of top end product that continues to give the sort of benefits Sara gave for QSI over Atik, because in a few years the top of the range ZWO will be as good as yesterday's QSI.

[nightster]

When buying my first astro cam I was concerned that my value choice (Atik) might be a problem. Being in the US I assumed any service in the future would be a costly, long lasting headache. QSI was just too expensive for me at the time and I had to go with the lower cost option. Few years later my 460 (up to that point flawless) suffered from a failing peltier. Atik's service was nothing short of perfect. 3 week total turnaround time, including shipping time. The cost was fair, if not cheap, and their communication was timely. My hope is that they take more than just the intellectual property of QSI and set up service for either brands on both continents.  They may be able to meld the best performing electonic designs from each for future products and leverage their larger purchasing power from the suppliers for better pricing to customers. It would make sense to keep the brands seperate for marketing. This seems like a great fit and I hope it happens. We need more choices in AP not fewer.