Thus Far and No Further!

[Moonshed]

I have been a keen astronomer for over 50 years, mainly just observing. I had a dabble about 20 years ago at astrophotography with a film camera and enjoyed that and took it as far as I  could with my existing equipment, getting some reasonable images. Three years ago I upgraded to an EQ5 GOTO mount and wished I had done it years before. I kept my 8"  Celestron SCT. Then a few months back I decided to have a bash at digital astrophotograph, and after having read lots of comments here opted for a used Canon 1100D, (not having a lot of cash to throw around), fitted a decent dovetail bar to my mount, and started out on a very steep learning curve. I have managed to get some not too bad images, although far from perfect they will do for me. I have enclosed two images as an example, I am really pleased with them even though they have their problems.

However. If I want to improve on this and get better images I need to make some upgrades. I now understand that I need to do the following, after asking questions on this forum and always getting good answers. (I love this forum, the information accessible here is amazing).

1) Buy a new laptop, my existing one only has 4 GB RAM  and can't handle all the functions needed in DSS, it can only process about 30 lights and nothing else. No drizzle, no Bias, Flats etc. A bit limiting but I am still getting halfway decent images. Cost? How long is a piece of string, let's just say a lot of dosh. Problem is I don't need it for anything else at all, our iPads do everything we want! I can't possibly justify the expense just so I can get some better photos.

2) I have trouble getting good PA partly because of back and neck problems when trying to look through the mount's eyepiece and partly because that system is only fairly accurate anyway. The only solution with my gear (no CCD,no guidescope/Finder scope) is  a PoleMaster. Don't even mention drift alignment, life is too short. Cost £280. Having said that I think it would be a waste of money, okay if solves the PA problem but I would still be limited to short subs anyway unless I start guiding.

3) I have been told, and I am sure correctly, that I am "under-mounted" I really should have bought an EQ6. Fair enough. Cost? Take your pick, let's say about £1000. (when I bought my Bresser Exos2 EQ5 GOTO mount I did not envisage taking up astrophotography again).

4) I really should be guiding apparently . Cost? No idea, but it won't be cheap will it!

5) Turns out a DSLR isn't such a good idea, each image takes a lot of memory, a 90 sec sub typically taking 14MB. Times that by 30 subs and you get 420MB just on Lights. No wonder then when in DSS I foolishly attempt to drizzle, add in Darks, Flats Bias etc. DSS crashes, my poor 4 year old laptop just can't cope. The advice is I should get a CCD much lower memory on TIFFs. Cost? How long's a piece of string. £ as little or as much as you want depending on whether or not you want OK images or good ones. To be correct, I either need a new laptop OR a CCD, I don't need both, although many would say I do.

6) Even with good PA and a max of around 90 sec subs stars away from the centre are egg shaped so that needs fixing too. I think I need a coma corrector or flattener. More cost, more hassle.

And so it goes on and on, this digital astrophotography lark is a never ending cash gobbler. Not only that it takes longer and longer to set up, what with PA, then focussing with the mask, then two star alignment, then going to and centering the image, taking test exposures etc.etc. Then it takes ages to get just one picture, I can only manage one a night with my health because from start to finish it takes up around 2 hours. So many things can, and do, go wrong. I have decided it's not for me, my hobby has gone from being a great joy to being stressful and potentially very, very expensive. Where do you draw the line?

I have drawn my line in the sand. I will take the occasional picture now and then, but my real love is the sheer pleasure of observing. For me nothing beats the pure joy of looking through the eyepiece at the wonders of the night sky. I am glad I made a start, but it's not for me, I miss observing too much. But thanks so much for all your help with imaging and I will still be pestering you about imaging stuff, more of which another time. For now, going back to a more relaxing way of enjoying my hobby, at the eyepiece.

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DRT]

Those are stunning images, Keith, of which you should be proud

I think your signature nicely sums up the sentiment of your post. Many of us spend thousands of pounds on equipment and never quite attain what we set out to achieve. Stepping back from the online stores and simply spending time staring at the universe through whatever we can afford or are prepared to stretch to takes knowledge, imagination and understanding to fully appreciate.

Enjoy your observing and, if you are so inclined, continue to produce lovely images like those shown above so that others like me can enjoy them

 

[ecuador]

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1) Buy a new laptop, my existing one only has 4 GB RAM  and can't handle all the functions needed in DSS, it can only process about 30 lights and nothing else. No drizzle, no Bias, Flats etc. A bit limiting but I am still getting halfway decent images. Cost? How long is a piece of string, let's just say a lot of dosh. Problem is I don't need it for anything else at all, our iPads do everything we want! I can't possibly justify the expense just so I can get some better photos.

That's weird. I have processed dozens of 18MP DSLR lights (directly Canon RAW) with their darks/lights/bias even on a 2GB RAM machine. I don't see why you'd have a problem, except of course if you try to Drizzle without defining a small rectangle. You are not supposed to use drizzle unless you have quite a lot of lights (e.g. Even with 100 lights the advantage seems small), and it is for small parts of your FoV (small targets for your focal length). Oh, and actually DSS is a 32bit program, it cannot use more than 2GB (or 3-3.5GB if it was compiled using a tweak, but I doubt it).

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2) I have trouble getting good PA partly because of back and neck problems when trying to look through the mount's eyepiece and partly because that system is only fairly accurate anyway. The only solution with my gear (no CCD,no guidescope/Finder scope) is  a PoleMaster. Don't even mention drift alignment, life is too short. Cost £280. Having said that I think it would be a waste of money, okay if solves the PA problem but I would still be limited to short subs anyway unless I start guiding.

Yeah, I'd say go to guiding which works even with imperfect PA.

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3) I have been told, and I am sure correctly, that I am "under-mounted" I really should have bought an EQ6. Fair enough. Cost? Take your pick, let's say about £1000. (when I bought my Bresser Exos2 EQ5 GOTO mount I did not envisage taking up astrophotography again).

If you want to keep the EQ5's portability, but with a capable astrophotography mount, take a look at iOptron's small offering, the CEM25 (or the ZEQ25 which was its predecessor, sold until a few months ago). 

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4) I really should be guiding apparently . Cost? No idea, but it won't be cheap will it!

£120 for good guide cam, £150 for a 60mm guide scope.

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5) Turns out a DSLR isn't such a good idea, each image takes a lot of memory, a 90 sec sub typically taking 14MB. Times that by 30 subs and you get 420MB just on Lights. No wonder then when in DSS I foolishly attempt to drizzle, add in Darks, Flats Bias etc. DSS crashes, my poor 4 year old laptop just can't cope. The advice is I should get a CCD much lower memory on TIFFs. Cost? How long's a piece of string. £ as little or as much as you want depending on whether or not you want OK images or good ones. To be correct, I either need a new laptop OR a CCD, I don't need both, although many would say I do.

No idea what you are talking about here. Each DSLR image takes a lot of DISK SPACE (unrelated to exposure time), not memory, they are not loaded all at once in RAM. And disk space is cheap, if you have a small drive, you can replace it cheaply with a huge one - or use an external. You should not drizzle, it doesn't do what you think it does, but it does use huge amounts of RAM. Darks, flats, bias etc also take disk space, but not much RAM, they are loaded in memory sequentially to be added and subtracted. Your laptop should be fine. We certainly don't buy CCDs to get "lower memory", in fact their TIFFs or FITS files are usually (depending the CCD) larger than the CR2s of your DSLR, but, again, that's just cheap disk space. A low resolution CCD will technically use less RAM on DSS, but DSS can handle DSLR resolutions just fine.

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6) Even with good PA and a max of around 30 sec subs stars away from the centre are egg shaped so that needs fixing too. I think I need a coma corrector or flattener. More cost, more hassle.

You need a Celestron 0.63x reducer/corrector. It is not expensive, you can find used ones on astrobuysell (for about £60, and avoid Meade to make sure they will work with your dslr). It will make your scope much faster and fix the stars by a lot. 

In essence, you are trying to image with a very long focal length scope, instead of with a short one (like say a 130PDS), so you are making your life more difficult. Still you are not doing bad, you think your M33 sucks, but what you don't know is that it is actually one of the dimmest Messier objects when it comes to surface brightness which is what counts in photos - so it's pretty good given your equipment! The reducer will help you a lot, but guiding will allow you to go to the next level (although a better mount would be a good idea at that point).

[ecuador]

Oh, and here is some help with how to use the reducer and what it does (with a C9.25, but it should be similar for you, just more vignetting which you get rid of with flats). And here my experience with the small iOptron mount I mentioned.

[kendg]

For the laptop, don't overlook the refurbished market. I got a refurb Dell 6420 that looked like it had never been outside of an office. 

I upgraded it to 8GB of memory and a 250GB SSD. All for under $500 Canadian. I added the SSD because I figured it would stand u better to -30C temperatures better than some spinning rust.

Depending on the processor, you may only need to upgrade the memory if you have a 64 bit operating system (I use Win 7 64 bit). 

[cardigan wearer]

I am just starting into the AP side and if I can attain the level of photos that you have I would be a very happy bunny!

Dont know what your PC skills are like but maybe you have a friend that could clean up a load of junk files and sort out the registry half an hour in good hands and your laptop will be as fast as new. If you do want to spend a little on it change the hard drive to a SSD. This is the best upgrade to any PC my laptop boots up in 15 seconds and virtually instant from hibernate. 

If you really enjoy visual use get some longer cables sorted so you can drive the scope from in the house, hook up your current camera to give live view on your laptop. Sit on your sofa in the warm enjoying your hobby. There are lots of ways to feed the live image into your home network, if your lucky enough to have a smart TV you can view it on there!

My next setup I am sourcing now will bring astronomy in my house into the digital age, or younger generation will never be interested. It will be wifi controlled from a dedicated cheap android tablet, starsense so it aligns its self up, the imager will feed to my LAN so I can view on a very wide screen HD TV. This also allows friends and family to get interested too

[alacant]

Reminds me of an oft used phrase. In our context it would start something like, 'You don't have to be mad to take up astrophotography, but...'. I'd say keep going along the same lines. The shots are for you. Forget the coma, field flattener, EQ6, guidescope, PHD2, APT, cables...Your shots are fine just as they are; you've made it. You can take astrophotos. Don't spend another cent. Stick with what you have, keep looking and when a target takes your fancy, then and only then, get out the camera. Just my €0.02. HTH.

[PeterCPC]

You can take great images without guiding by stacking lots of short exposures. I have done this with a Canon and an ASI224. Sure the images will not be as good as long exposure imaging but you might be pleasantly surprised.

Peter

[Pieter]

Wow and you find those shots reasonable?! They are very nice!

I have also been looking into astrophotography and have the luck to use stuff from work (camera and computer) but like you say everyone says the NEQ6 is needed and I am limited in budget to an EQ5... Going to a shop today where they tell me the EQ5 is more than enough but he is going to have to bring up a lot of evidence because I don't want to set up with gear that can't reach its full potential...

[JohnSadlerAstro]

Hi,

Although I am now upgrading to EQ5, before I was using an EQ2, ad I did manage to get a couple of decent shots..equipment isn't everything.  

John

[Thalestris24]

Yep, serious imaging is a money pit! However, you could ditch the slow, long focal length scope and just image with a dslr and lens. Most of the imaging I've done over the last 6 months has been with a dslr + vintage 200mm f4 smc takumar lens.

Definitely don't bother drizzling - life is too short!

Lens

[Moonshed]

ecuador. Many thanks for all your advice. I do not know why my laptop crashes in DSS but have been told by others on this forum that 4GB of RAM is not enough. I have no idea if it is or isn't. The problem with any forum is always the same, some advice will be first class and some will be not be. Trying to sort out all the conflicting advice is very difficult. The stuff about DSLR taking up too much memory and I should be using a CCD also came from this forum. I have become very frustrated trying to make sense of it all. Anyway, As I said, I am not going to spend a penny more or even upgrade my note taking biro. I will stick with what I have.

Cheers. Keith

[JohnSadlerAstro]

This is the truth about the DSLR-CCD thing: The camera with the larger sensor and number of pixels will have the larger picture size. So some older DSLRs have sensors quite a lot smaller than some top-of the range CCDs.

John

[Moonshed]

8 hours ago, DRT said:

Those are stunning images, Keith, of which you should be proud

I think your signature nicely sums up the sentiment of your post. Many of us spend thousands of pounds on equipment and never quite attain what we set out to achieve. Stepping back from the online stores and simply spending time staring at the universe through whatever we can afford or are prepared to stretch to takes knowledge, imagination and understanding to fully appreciate.

Enjoy your observing and, if you are so inclined, continue to produce lovely images like those shown above so that others like me can enjoy them

 

Thanks for your comments Derek. You understand where I am coming from. Most of the posts on the thread are still telling me to spend more money!!! ?

[Moonshed]

35 minutes ago, Thalestris24 said:

Yep, serious imaging is a money pit! However, you could ditch the slow, long focal length scope and just image with a dslr and lens. Most of the imaging I've done over the last 6 months has been with a dslr + vintage 200mm f4 smc takumar lens.

Definitely don't bother drizzling - life is too short!

Lens

That is good advice and I have been thinking the very same thing. I am going to try piggyback my Canon on the scope and get some wide angle shots of the Milky Way and swap lenses for the Orion constellation and so on. A lot simpler. Even so, observing through the eyepiece will be my main thing.

Cheers, Keith.

[JohnSadlerAstro]

1 minute ago, Moonshed said:

That is good advice and I have been thinking the very same thing. I am going to try piggyback my Canon on the scope and get some wide angle shots of the Milky Way and swap lenses for the Orion constellation and so on. A lot simpler. Even so, observing through the eyepiece will be my main thing.

Cheers, Keith.

Yeah, all of my imaging so far has been like this.

[Knight of Clear Skies]

14 minutes ago, Moonshed said:

ecuador. Many thanks for all your advice. I do not know why my laptop crashes in DSS but have been told by others on this forum that 4GB of RAM is not enough. I have no idea if it is or isn't.

4GB is fine provided you turn off Drizzle, which unlikely to be improving your images noticeably anyway. Both my desktop and laptop only have 4 GB memory and stack images from my 1100D and a 100D with 50% more pixels fine.

[Moonshed]

Cardigan wearer. Thanks for your advice. I enjoy observing through the eyepiece, looking at the image on a screen is very useful on APT for example for focussing and such, but just does not, for me anyway, compare to the image through the eyepiece. I don't mind braving the cold to see a real image as compared to a digital replica. Cheers. Keith.

[ecuador]

15 minutes ago, Moonshed said:

ecuador. Many thanks for all your advice. I do not know why my laptop crashes in DSS but have been told by others on this forum that 4GB of RAM is not enough. I have no idea if it is or isn't. The problem with any forum is always the same, some advice will be first class and some will be not be. Trying to sort out all the conflicting advice is very difficult. The stuff about DSLR taking up too much memory and I should be using a CCD also came from this forum. I have become very frustrated trying to make sense of it all. Anyway, As I said, I am not going to spend a penny more or even upgrade my note taking biro. I will stick with what I have.

Cheers. Keith

Hehe good for you, I always say try to pull the best out of your equipment. I was doing astrophotography with a film camera on a manual equatorial (piggyback, following a star on my TAL1's eyepiece with the slow motion controls).

Although, that 0.63x reducer is cheap and many people enjoy it when visually observing

Otherwise, for the laptop, as I told you DSS does not have a 64bit version, so it cannot access more than 4GB of RAM (it cannot even access your full 4GB unless you have a 64bit OS and DSS is compiled in a way to take advantage of that - I haven't checked). Memory usage on DSS does depend on resolution, but even with a DSLR or a big CCD (right, not all CCDs are low resolution - in fact we want them to have decent resolution) will not crash DSS, unless you use Drizzle. If you want to give it another go, re-install DSS (make sure it is version 3.3.4) and give it a shot, always without drizzle. DSS is temperamental, so it is not unlikely that it might misbehave on your specific setup, unrelated to your RAM, but it could be as simple as having always enabled drizzle when you added darks/flats etc.

Cheers

[iapa]

9 hours ago, Moonshed said:

I have been a keen astronomer for over 50 years, mainly just observing. I had a dabble about 20 years ago at astrophotography with a film camera and enjoyed that and took it as far as I  could with my existing equipment, getting some reasonable images. Three years ago I upgraded to an EQ5 GOTO mount and wished I had done it years before. I kept my 8"  Celestron SCT. Then a few months back I decided to have a bash at digital astrophotograph, and after having read lots of comments here opted for a used Canon 1100D, (not having a lot of cash to throw around), fitted a decent dovetail bar to my mount, and started out on a very steep learning curve. I have managed to get some not too bad images, although far from perfect they will do for me. I have enclosed two images as an example, I am really pleased with them even though they have their problems.

However. If I want to improve on this and get better images I need to make some upgrades. I now understand that I need to do the following, after asking questions on this forum and always getting good answers. (I love this forum, the information accessible here is amazing).

1) Buy a new laptop, my existing one only has 4 GB RAM  and can't handle all the functions needed in DSS, it can only process about 30 lights and nothing else. No drizzle, no Bias, Flats etc. A bit limiting but I am still getting halfway decent images. Cost? How long is a piece of string, let's just say a lot of dosh. Problem is I don't need it for anything else at all, our iPads do everything we want! I can't possibly justify the expense just so I can get some better photos.

2) I have trouble getting good PA partly because of back and neck problems when trying to look through the mount's eyepiece and partly because that system is only fairly accurate anyway. The only solution with my gear (no CCD,no guidescope/Finder scope) is  a PoleMaster. Don't even mention drift alignment, life is too short. Cost £280. Having said that I think it would be a waste of money, okay if solves the PA problem but I would still be limited to short subs anyway unless I start guiding.

3) I have been told, and I am sure correctly, that I am "under-mounted" I really should have bought an EQ6. Fair enough. Cost? Take your pick, let's say about £1000. (when I bought my Bresser Exos2 EQ5 GOTO mount I did not envisage taking up astrophotography again).

4) I really should be guiding apparently . Cost? No idea, but it won't be cheap will it!

5) Turns out a DSLR isn't such a good idea, each image takes a lot of memory, a 90 sec sub typically taking 14MB. Times that by 30 subs and you get 420MB just on Lights. No wonder then when in DSS I foolishly attempt to drizzle, add in Darks, Flats Bias etc. DSS crashes, my poor 4 year old laptop just can't cope. The advice is I should get a CCD much lower memory on TIFFs. Cost? How long's a piece of string. £ as little or as much as you want depending on whether or not you want OK images or good ones. To be correct, I either need a new laptop OR a CCD, I don't need both, although many would say I do.

6) Even with good PA and a max of around 30 sec subs stars away from the centre are egg shaped so that needs fixing too. I think I need a coma corrector or flattener. More cost, more hassle.

And so it goes on and on, this digital astrophotography lark is a never ending cash gobbler. Not only that it takes longer and longer to set up, what with PA, then focussing with the mask, then two star alignment, then going to and centering the image, taking test exposures etc.etc. Then it takes ages to get just one picture, I can only manage one a night with my health because from start to finish it takes up around 2 hours. So many things can, and do, go wrong. I have decided it's not for me, my hobby has gone from being a great joy to being stressful and potentially very, very expensive. Where do you draw the line?

I have drawn my line in the sand. I will take the occasional picture now and then, but my real love is the sheer pleasure of observing. For me nothing beats the pure joy of looking through the eyepiece at the wonders of the night sky. I am glad I made a start, but it's not for me, I miss observing too much. But thanks so much for all your help with imaging and I will still be pestering you about imaging stuff, more of which another time. For now, going back to a more relaxing way of enjoying my hobby, at the eyepiece.

Keith

Taking things in turn

First, those are good image, nothing to worry about there.

1. A four yearly laptop is perfectly adequate for DSS. The program is 32bit, and will no the able to make use of any RAM upgrade.
2. I got the pole master purely to solve the back/neck craning. Saves me pain (which makes it worth every penny), and time, which always helps.
3. If you get images like you are, then you've got the balance right, so I'd not worry over much there. 
4. A guide cam (£150 or so), and a guide scope, about the same. Some folks have suggested that the ratio of focal lengths image:guiding should be  around 3 or 4 which would have you using a 600mm or so guide scope on the SCT. I also have the SCT and use a £99 Skywatcher StarTravel 80 (fl=400mm, f5) with a £20 extension tube. FLO of a bundle Guide Scope Bundle - Suitable for Side-By-Side bars or GuideScope Mounts which is effectively what I have - except I bought the bits one at a time.
5. DSLRs can use a fair bit of disk space with images around 14MB or so. DSS crashes amy be more related to lack of space on the disk drive. DSS can fall over if there is a very large number of files in the TEMP folder - I think it just can't count all the files

I hear you around cost, it can seem never ending; TBH I think it is 

and set up time......

On Weds night it took me 4 hours to get everything right and get guiding, and that is with everything still out side from Sunday night  . I did then get 7 hours worth of data by sunrise.

[happy-kat]

I was going to say what Louise has already said. Ditch the drizzle I tried it and ground my pc to a standstill, just take lots of lights. Think about use your dslr and a camera lens, will be much lighter if mounted directly and much faster aperture. Try something different with the camera and feel rejuvenated.

[wornish]

Not sure if you have a Finderscope. But you can solve two problems at once for only moderate outlay.

If has others have already suggested you could get a low cost Guidecam  e.g a Toupcam from FLO for ~ £150 and an adapter ~ £30  to fit it to a 50 x 9mm Finderscope. 

Then you can use FREE software to do the  other things

1. Polar alignment - Sharpcap v2.9 includes an easy to use polar alignment tool that really works using your guide cam, its is just as good as using a Polarscope and costs nothing.

2. Computer control your mount with ASCOM drivers

3. Guiding using PHD2  using the Toupcam attached to your finder scope

That would really make a big difference.

 

Even with 4GB your laptop might cope but upgrading its memory to 8gb is not as expensive as buying a new one.

[iapa]

11 minutes ago, wornish said:

Even with 4GB your laptop might cope but upgrading its memory to 8gb is not as expensive as buying a new one.

Assuming that the OP has a 64bit OS, or is willing to pay to upgrade to a Windows 10 as well.

It's all a can of worms isn't it

[cfpendock]

What a lot of negatives!  However, do not despair....The biggest difficulty is that your telescope is not really designed for imaging, although it is certainly excellent for visual work.  I think that your perceived difficulties may not be so expensive to overcome:

11 hours ago, Moonshed said:

1) Buy a new laptop, my existing one only has 4 GB RAM  and can't handle all the functions needed in DSS, it can only process about 30 lights and nothing else. No drizzle, no Bias, Flats etc. A bit limiting but I am still getting halfway decent images.

I use windows XP for all my imaging and processing, with 4 GB of RAM.  It works fine, but I must admit it is now a lot faster since I put an SSD in, although this is only noticeable when using Astrotortilla where a database of stars is used to align the scope. - I should add that using Astrotortilla (which is free) saves a lot of time when setting up - none of this two star alignment..I have to set up from scratch each time, and alignment typically takes less than 10 seconds, albeit using a motorised mount which others have already stated that you need.

 

11 hours ago, Moonshed said:

I have trouble getting good PA partly because of back and neck problems when trying to look through the mount's eyepiece and partly because that system is only fairly accurate anyway.

Is it at all possible to leave the mount outside?  If so then you could sort your polar alignment (maybe with a friend to help) and then leave it at that.  Small tweaks from time to time can be done using PHD or other free software without having to look through the polar scope.

 

11 hours ago, Moonshed said:

I really should be guiding apparently

Yes, you should.  It should be possible to buy a cheap second-hand scope - certainly less than £100, and similarly a guide camera, although you will have the cost of mounting this to the main scope EXTREMELY RIGIDLY.

 

11 hours ago, Moonshed said:

my poor 4 year old laptop

Only four years old!!!!!! I have been using a Dell which was bought around 12 years ago.  It works because it uses windows XP which is fairly simple and is never connected to the internet.

And by the way, considering the equipment you are using, you images are not bad at all....

Chris

 

[Moonshed]

Thanks to one and all for your advice. The one thing that has puzzled me is why my laptop can't cope with DSS stacking my Lights AND Bias  and/or Flat Frames, with DRIZZLE OFF. I will work on that to find out the problem because the consensus is that it SHOULD cope! I just happened to have been informed by a couple of  members that my 4GB RAM couldn't cope. Ah well, no one's perfect.

I really do appreciate all the advice about improving my images with a minimum of expense, but as I said I refuse to go down that road, it's a long and slippery slope! I am not going to spend another penny on any sort of upgrade/new gear,  I am going to stick with what I have. That is my point, I have  drawn a line in the sand and will not cross it?   The alternative is that an enjoyable hobby can turn into a frustrating, taxing and stressful, not forgetting expensive, addiction!  

Iapa.    4 hours to set up! Good grief, that is taking it to an extreme lol. ? Now that's what I call dedication! I think you may be beyond help now, but you never know, therapy may bring you back from the brink ?

Thanks guys, really appreciate all your comments

Cheers,

Keith