Will becoming more experienced reduce my enjoyment of using my kit and the night sky

[spaceboy]

I enjoy astronomy because it takes me out of this world and allows me to see / experience the bigger picture. I get a better sense of our place in the universe when I see huge nebula with young stars developing or that new speck of light that is a giant star going bang. I admit that having astro gear that produce pleasing images to the eye helps with that enjoyment but I try not to let coma, astigmatism, CA or other aberrations distract me from the whole purpose of why I got a telescope in the first place. 

Due to weather restrictions and other commitments, astronomy it isn't my main hobby but even so I have found I have invested a substantial amount of funds in to buying kit over the years. For me the improvements over my beginner set up has been wide FOV eyepieces, better mounts (which I feel over all other kit has improved my enjoyment) and a more dedicated solar set up.

Now I wouldn't consider myself a beginner but neither would I call myself a novice. When the skies are clear I get my gear out to look at the stars and try my best to contemplate the vast distances involved and what it is I am looking at rather than just seeing a few points of light. If I have bought a new piece of astro kit I will give it a first light to ensure it is working as described and more importantly I find it suits me and that it is offering me what I originally intended with the purchase. This may be something as simple as offering me additional magnification or framing a favourite DSO.

Have astronomers found over the duration of their hobby that they no longer get the naïve wow factor from the fact they are seeing planets or DSO millions of miles away ? Has it now become a case of perfection or obsession to improve on those same views in any and all ways possible ??

With time will my eye be drawn more and more to the short comings of my kit rather than the experience itself ? A less experienced observer may be more underwhelmed by a smudge of light or a pea sized planet than impressed by a coma free well corrected view of said objects. For a beginner would the view through a cheap MA eyepiece be any less impressive if used in a 12" dob over an ethos in a 6" triplet ? Would the same scenario be any less impressive for a novice being aware of aberrations ?

I always worry I will become more critical of aberrations than relating to the object in the views. Even for a beginner who isn't looking for them there is no denying that aberrations exist but in the 10 years I have studied the night sky I have found astigmatism less of a distraction than coma, and while it's possible to correct coma it is again not so distracting that I feel it upsets the views. CA is again not the biggest distraction for me but I agree this is one aberration that can have a negative impact on contrast when viewing planets. I have no idea what SA is and don't have any intension of learning what it is either as ignorance is bliss. Sure a view free of all these aberrations would be more desirable but at what point do you allow them to be more of a distraction than a result of inherent optical design.

While all improvements may be subtle and more obvious to an experienced eye than a beginner I have no doubt that the views offered by top end kit must be worth the financial investment as it is made by so many. I just wonder how many astronomers have made perfecting the views more of a priority that they can no longer fully immerse themselves in the views without becoming distracted.  Was the eye naturally distracted by aberrations or did you look for them is I guess what I'm asking. I know myself that due to LP and often transparency a great many DSO can be invisible so I have a selection of favourites that I often return to on a regular basis. I guess looking at the same thing over an over I may want to improve on those views in some way and increases in aperture is not always practical so the next step would be to tidy up edges or improve optics but again I think this would lead me down the path of being more judgemental of my kit rather than relating to what it is I am looking at. Are there those astronomers who have made all the improvements there is to make to their kit but still feel a desire for improvement ? Do those same astronomers remember a time where they were less critical of the shortcomings of their kit and more in awe of the views ?

 

[Davesellars]

I think becoming more experienced actually helps you just to get on with the observing and not worry about the possible limitations of the kit.  Upgrading by going from cheap Plossls all the way to Televue Ethos for example may help you enjoy the view that little bit more and all other "upgrades" may just make your observational session more productive and / or pleasurable but what you're actually able to see if basically just down to you, the sky conditions and your base aperture...  The rest is fairly inconsequential.

Once you've got a sufficient amount of hours behind the eyepiece viewing many different objects in different conditions any perceived limitations of equipment can be realistically examined... but not before you have enough experience imho.  Many times I may have given the limitation of aperture (8") the reason because I cannot see a particularly faint object only to try again with success on another night that may be a touch darker and a touch better transparency.  Indeed, from starting several years ago some of the Messier 110 objects were difficult until I'd gained progressively more experience.  Now, while viewing the Herschel 400 list objects - all the Messier objects all stand out like a beacon in comparison and I am also able to discern  much more detail from them...  Therefore with more experience I am enjoying that much more the brighter objects and love viewing them again and again.  On a particularly fantastically dark and transparent night a little while ago I had some of the best views with real detail of M31, M81/82.   The Herschel objects to me are all a challenge and being able to see that extremely faint galaxy such a huge distance from us is indeed a real kick.

I'm still on my quest to see the Herschel 400 objects and also starting now on the H2 list at the same time.  My 8" will be stretched and for sure it is not possible to see all the H2 objects with this aperture so at some point if I want to continue I have the very real need to upgrade to larger aperture.  Until funds allow (i'm still contemplating selling off all my imaging stuff) I will stick with my C8 and refractors and enjoy the views.

[jetstream]

Now that the equipment is getting to where I want it observing is taking over my interest. Actually it always was my main interest but sometimes things have to be learned and tried in order to get great views, it is a process for sure. Knowing which scope and eyepiece to grab for what object and why is a huge benefit to the views, its second nature now but keeping an open mind is an important and at times hard thing to do.

The best thing I've done so far is move to a dark location.

[Moonshane]

I think it was MikeDKnight that referred in the past to the joy of ownership. To some extent I think an arms race of improvement of equipment if human nature. I certainly always have in the back of my mind the next upgrade to the scope/eyepiece I have although it's important to appreciate the kit you have currently too.

As for experience reducing your interest/sense of awe, I suppose this depends on the person concerned. Some will have a shelf life with a hobby and naturally move on. Some will love it all their life. Either is fine! 

If I see a new object well then I get either a sense of satisfaction relating to actually finding one that had eluded me before or just to have 'collected' it. Sometimes using a different scope to see an object in a different way or taking up a new aspect to the hobby (double stars, solar etc) keeps it fresh and you then recycle, going back to planetary / lunar if you've not done that for a while.

[ronin]

I cannot recall ever having one of these "Wow" moments, I have seen Jupiter and Saturn, these usually seem to be the "Wow" items and agreed nice to see but neither have as they say "knocked my socks off".

Aperture seems to come into much of it, quite a few of these "Wow's" seem to be having acquired a bigger scope and then managed to see that faint whatever as a slightly less faint whatever.

If people expect a Wow each time then they are going to be mightly disappointed, there is not a lot up there to cause one. Oddly the Moon is likely to be a good one, and everyone moans about that.

I can understand a person doing the Messier Catalogue, then another like Herschel or Caldwell. When I started initially I read The Astronomy League programs and thought they were a very good idea. However there is nothing like these in the UK, which I found fairly poor for UK astronomy. The Messier catalogue and others like it sort of make it easy to have a goal. Again the UK seems lacking in things like a Messier Marathon night, think Norman Lockyear did or do one. Agreed it might seem a little superficial to just spend a night hunting down Messiers to just tick them off with others but the other way is that you are with another bunch of nutters all doing the same and all having a mad night doing it. Willing to bet that more people do it for this then the actual Messier objects, suspect that some even book up and go along and do not take their scope(s) out to use.

I like looking at just about anything, coloured doubles are fun. I suppose the easy aspect is that if you are pointing at the right bit of sky and you have 2 stars in view of different colours then you have a good chance of done what you wanted. Makes it sort of easy. However basically anything I cannot recall seeong previously is a good night. One approach I do hav e is to locate something in the small goto, then later make a comparison of it through a bigger ED or apo.

[iPeace]

No.

[scarp15]

I feel as motivated and a desire for learning that has been constant since the day (and night) I started out. This applies to my kit which over the years has evolved and progressively cost a fortune yet which sees periodic though irregular use. I am driven towards making efforts to load the car and get to dark sky locations. Each time and it is clear is an experience of excitement and anticipation, even before I have looked through the scope. 

[nightfisher]

Good post Nick,

Like you i am some place in the middle, not a novice and no way an expert, i agree about mount upgrades being very important, when i think back to my 200 newt on an EQ3 what a nightmare, so nowadays i prefer an overkill on the mounts.

Also this is not my only hobby as i now fly multirotors and yes both hobbies have drawn heavy on my funds, but in answer to the main question i still get excited about my views or images, the other week viewing Saturn low in the sky with humble little TS80 frac still gave me a buzz so to speak, i feel i have at last got my kit about where i want with no changes planned for a long time short of winning lotto, only item i feel i might be looking for is a high power ep but no rush

[spaceboy]

Don't get me wrong I still enjoy what night sky objects I look at (albeit limited to the brighter stuff) and at this present moment in time I am reasonably happy with my kit. I could do with a little more aperture but Newtonian fiery stars are now a peeve that I have become more accustomed to refractor airy discs. Cleaning up the edges with the parcorr has help compensate to some degree making the over all image more pleasurable but can be a bit of a faff given the amount of eyepieces I have collectionized. It's just in saying this that makes me think I am becoming more critical with experience and I guess purchases. I can't say that I was all that irritated by Newtonian stars until I gained more experience using my refractors. I know that larger apertures are more adversely effected by seeing conditions and that on a good night the stars in my newts offer up just as aesthetically pleasing stars as the refractors.  I had considered pushing the boat out on a higher spec dob but then my current eyepieces would limit potential and become the weak link in the chain. With UK weather regularly seeing kit gathering dust I am reminded not to invest too heavily in astronomy so the possibility of swapping out my ep's yet again was out of the question and besides I cant really fault them in my slower refractor.

[nightfisher]

Yes some bits of kit have limiting factors on the scopes we own, my mounts limit me to a practical 6" max aperture if i dont want lots of wobbles, my ep`s limit me to slower scopes but this is also a choice i have made and like you say pour lots of money into kit that just sits collecting dust, one of the reasons i backed out of the ED120 idea 

[Paz]

I've pretty much now got the kit I was after and I don't long for anything better (but note one or two contradictions to follow!).

The ST120 has really grown on me - cheap, robust, simple, and good enough for me. The VX14 is as large as I can go - I know any larger would be unmanageable and any smaller would have me wishing I had something bigger. My 127 Mak is really nice - the ST120 can do wider fields, the VX14 can do higher magnification, more detail, etc but the 127 is a different experience and still interesting to observe with. Maybe the only change I still wonder about is swapping the 127 Mak for a 180 Mak if the right one came along at the right price. That would make for a smallish simple arsenal of different types of scope. It will either be that or just simplify to only having the 120 and the VX as they would cover most of the bases pretty much.

I've got one or two more eyepieces to go but apart from that (......and maybe the 180 Mak ....... and maybe a solar scope at some point......), my focus is on observing and improving my observing abilities rather than thinking about kit.

 

[ollypenrice]

What you observe will be enriched, in my view, by more theoretical and historical knowledge. So astronomical reading will enhance your experience at the eyepiece. I would say that, of course, because I used to be an English teacher!

Since I embarked on a life in astrophotography the problem of progression has taken care of itself. Contrary to popular belief this is not an area in which you progress by the constant improvement of your kit. I have no doubt whatever that I could go on improving my images for thirty years without changing my hardware at all. I don't doubt that many visual observers would make a similar point - that technique is everything.

Olly

[YKSE]

A very good topic.

I agree with most of the points made above, with experience, you're able to enjoy the hobby in many more ways. You start to notice how few are the dark clear nights, you start tryingto make best use of available clear sky. Knowing complaining the bad weather wouldn't help, you start to read more for understanding your stuffs, trying to improve the equipments, which often turns out to be the eyes. There's just NO gear can replace our eyes and experience, and we come to that realization with knowledge.

[ChrisLX200]

For visual you need a fair amount of experience before you even begin to 'see' what the scope is offering you. Training the eyes to actually see detail in very dim objects is an important step that cannot be over-emphasised. That's the sad thing about aging eyesight - as you get older you begin to lose the visual acuity you once had, ojects that were once merely difficult targets now become impossible and if you're enjoyment is in detecting such targets it can be a blow. To the rescue comes the CCD camera and that is why I moved to imaging, I can now 'see' objects and features I had no chance of glimpsing through an eyepiece even with younger eyes. You might argue using a camera loses some of the magic of photons hitting your retina but as an older amateur astronomer I (personally) don't think it does. There's hope for us all long into retirement

ChrisH

[recceranger]

Space boy,

The only thing that will ruin the beauty and thrill is if you get bogged down with AP.

Im not that experienced but when I mess around on an evening with AP I get frustrated, distracted and ultimately disappointed.  If I concentrate on visual, especially on a sparklingly clear crisp night and look at Saturn, M45, Jupiter and moons etc, I'm in total awe.  It makes me pause, think and appreciate life.  

I love astronomy, the things I learn about the cosmos and the stories of heroism from the likes of Apollo Astronauts.

Its a pleasure to partake in this thing we call stargazing and I wouldn't leave it for all the bling on earth!???

[Stu]

I will confess to being a bit of a purist, and have moved scopes on quite quickly of the have abberations which I find objectionable (which may be perfectly acceptable to others)

My current Tak with hopefully be with me for the long run, it gives me the near perfect views which make my little heart sing, yet is compact enough to take pretty much anywhere with me. I find the observing position to be comfortable and pretty much any mount takes it without wobbles.

It can never compete with larger aperture in certain aspects, but is there as my preferred option for many sessions. I accept other options for what they offer eg an SCT as portable aperture and my new addition of a 12" dob for simplicity and the benefit of a bit more light gathering without too much weight. I am not a fan of diffraction spikes, or the furry stars you tend to get with SCTs, but once beyond the brighter objects these issues tend to reduce, and the image scale and resolution come to the fore. Still, I struggle with coma, hence the f5.3 newt, and dislike field curvature so the Tak at f7.4 helps here too. The C8 Edge had a lovely flat field which I did appreciate, and may revisit.

I've never let myself be dragged too far down the aperture fever route. The 16" Sumerian I had was a gorgeous scope, and showed me more galaxies in 4 clear nights at Lucksall than the previous 15 years' observing! But that's not something I feel the need to repeat that often. I try to keep things fresh by having a number of strings to my astronomy bow. I love planetary observing, and also solar. These two are my big passions I guess, followed by nebulae, in particular the summer milky way, Veil/NAN and Sagittarius etc which I try to get a few good sessions a year on during holidays. At home, DSO observing is largely limited to globs and PNs.

One thing I do try to do is get the most out of whichever kit I'm using. An observing 'feat' which I still remember was nabbing the supernova in M82 from my back garden using my 4" frac. I got it easily a few days later with my 12", but that is not something I remember very clearly. I do recall picking out the tiny pinpoint of light using averted vision, in a galaxy that I could barely see because of the LP. It was a real challenge and one I really enjoyed. 

So Nick, yes I am fussy, I don't like CA, diffraction spikes or SCT stars. I would rather observe with a smaller scope in which I see an aesthetically pleasing image, than a larger one which has distracting abberations. My experience has just taught me to know what I enjoy, and now I know which kit I like using, purchasing decisions become more straight forward. Selling off a lot of my kit has been highly cathartic. That's not to say it wasn't painful, but it focuses the mind and having few choices makes it easier to decide what to observe with.

We are all different though, and my idea of a lovely view would be another's idea of what to expect through a Finderscope  

[spaceboy]

 

 

30 minutes ago, recceranger said:

Space boy,

The only thing that will ruin the beauty and thrill is if you get bogged down with AP.

Im not that experienced but when I mess around on an evening with AP I get frustrated, distracted and ultimately disappointed.  

Don't worry I have been there and got frustrated already. I think in all fairness I ended up attempting imaging where I should have perused video astronomy instead. This would have at least shown me in real time more than my skies are willing to using only the MK1 eyeball and saved me all the hassle of trying to learn everything involved in getting a presentable image.

In truth I think half the problem is browsing SGL in down time. There are so many threads pointing out the flaws and shortcoming to eyepieces and telescopes that you inevitably become more aware of these things when previously you would have been enjoying the views rather than looking for them. As said previously I am presently happy with my kit but wonder if I will end up becoming more and more distracted by things I previously could live with. It does seem to be the trend after all that once you reach a certain level in astronomy top end glass and optics become desired.

This may be as Moonshane quotes

On ‎08‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 13:26, Moonshane said:

I think it was MikeDKnight that referred in the past to the joy of ownership. To some extent I think an arms race of improvement of equipment if human nature.

and nothing more than wanting the best you can from kit available these days? I guess if you only have the one hobby it makes sense. I'm sure while the improvements of top end glass may only be subtle, once combined with other subtle improvements they start to make a difference. Although I have always found a good nights seeing and transparency offer up the biggest improvement and it's a dam sight cheaper albeit rare. I imagine those of us in the UK and particularly those caught under the jet stream would be blown away by those who have calmer and cleaner skies. I can only hope one day to experience such skies. I hear African skies are quite amazing.

[spaceboy]

9 hours ago, Stu said:

I will confess to being a bit of a purist, and have moved scopes on quite quickly of the have abberations which I find objectionable (which may be perfectly acceptable to others)

It can never compete with larger aperture in certain aspects, but is there as my preferred option for many sessions. I accept other options for what they offer eg an SCT as portable aperture and my new addition of a 12" dob for simplicity and the benefit of a bit more light gathering without too much weight. I am not a fan of diffraction spikes, or the furry stars you tend to get with SCTs, but once beyond the brighter objects these issues tend to reduce, and the image scale and resolution come to the fore. Still, I struggle with coma, hence the f5.3 newt, and dislike field curvature so the Tak at f7.4 helps here too.

 

Nothing wrong with being a purist Stu but my point is to get there you have to critique the views which kind of distracts from what it is your looking at if that makes any sense ? As much as I have enjoyed the views through my EVO150 the ED120 was a big eye opener and I guess kind of where this thread has come from. I know using refractors has made me less favourable of newts in general. Sadly it seems to go deep there is nothing more cost effective than a dob.

Congrats on the new scope btw Stu. I'd seen you picked up the OO 12" f5.3 off ABS.  I was very close to buying it myself but I doubt my current ep collection would have done it justice, although I think that was more me talking myself out of the 5 hr round trip to Plymouth. I would though be appreciative of a look through it if you take it to SGLXII even if it may just rub salt in the wounds lol.

 

[Stu]

3 minutes ago, spaceboy said:

Nothing wrong with being a purist Stu but my point is to get there you have to critique the views which kind of distracts from what it is your looking at if that makes any sense ? As much as I have enjoyed the views through my EVO150 the ED120 was a big eye opener and I guess kind of where this thread has come from. I know using refractors in general has made me less favourable of newts in general. Sadly it seems to go deep there is nothing more cost effective than a dob.

Congrats on the new scope btw Stu. I'd seen you picked up the OO 12" f5.3 off ABS.  I was very close to buying it myself but I doubt my current ep collection would have done it justice, although I think that was more me talking myself out of the 5 hr round trip to Plymouth. I would though be appreciative of a look through it if you take it to SGLXII even if it may just rub salt in the wounds lol.

 

Nick, you must be lacking in commitment to the cause, it was a 7 hour round trip for me even meeting Mike in Exeter!

I viewed it as a longer term thing, as I'm sure my current eyepieces will not get the best out of it. It just seemed an excellent scope for the money, and a spec that I have been on the look out for for a long time. Couldn't refuse it really.

Coming back to your point. I guess I do critique the views, and that's what helps me to make the right decisions about which kit will make me happy. Once I have that kit then I tend to forget about it and just enjoy the observing.

[spaceboy]

7hrs  That's a committed man right there lol. I'm sure it will be more than worth it though mate. I know you wanted Shanes some years back so I bet it is nice to finally strike it off your list.

Once I have that kit then I tend to forget about it and just enjoy the observing.  You have had your fair share of kit though Stu  

[Moonshane]

I once went to Southampton (8 hour round trip) for my 6" f11. It was worth it though as I knew the scope would not be trashed.

[spaceboy]

TBH I should have probably made the journey as it did look a well looked after scope of good spec and Mike sounded like a genuinely nice guy. Sadly though I put a price on everything including my time (something we can never get back) as well as what it would cost in fuel and wear and tear on the car. May all sound a little OCD but it comes from it being drilled in to me while managing a business where any expenses were considered a limit on profit. In this case for me it was going from an affordable scope in to one that was going to get me in debt. When it comes to a hobby that is very weather dependant I stick to a strict budget which I will admit is sometimes my downfall.

I agree sometime it is worth the journey as I did travel to Plymouth once before to get my EVO150 but for me the scope and accessories made it such a bargain it was too good to miss. It wasn't so bad as I knew the scope would easily fit in the boot so I was able to go with the family for a day out at the English Riviera  while down that way.

I wonder what is the longest someone has driven to collect a scope? The Isle of Wight was the furthest I'd contemplated at an estimated 10hrs round trip including a ferry ride. Like a day at work and then some....

[Moonshane]

I agree Nick, budgets are a pain although there's always something (from your hobby) you can sell to raise funds if you are determined enough. That's pretty much what Stu did I suppose. If you don't it just takes a bit longer to accrue the quality you want. I could sell all my eyepieces, and one of my bigger dobs, buy a used set of TV plossls or similar and buy the refractor I'd really like (Tak 100) but I choose to hang fire and keep the stuff I really want so I continue to enjoy it. Eventually through saving, I'll have enough although in reality I always have another idea! My latest 'mind experiments' include binoviewers for solar system objects, a really top diagonal, converting my 16" to a decent truss dob, re-silvering my 12" mirror, buying more Delites This will probably suck up £1800 by the time I am finished although I'll be selling a couple of eyepieces (maybe £300) to mitigate so 'only' £1500 . This is for someone that already has what many would consider dream level equipment. For me the chase and endless progression of quality (although not in my case aperture) is definitely part of the hobby although I do enjoy actually observing too! 

Despite appearances to the contrary I have very little spare money and have either saved my £50 a month 'guilt free' allowance, birthday/Christmas money etc, or sold equipment etc from this or previous hobbies before I could buy anything of any financial note.

[Pingster]

For me there was the 6 months of pure excitment and andrealin...

Followed by mild interest. As i learnt that even a 20in dob wont gove me astro photo quality B/W views of most targets. And the fact that i learnt theres only a handful of good targets in the sky within reach of our astro gear. Especially if you live in the UK in a city. 

Then i had the gear obsession... CA, FOV, then lightweight... and now rubberised soft touch star shaped knobs!

But with experience i still enjoy astronomy. I enjoy it for the simple pleasure of enjoyjng a good unique view with some niceish gear.

For casual observers your interest in astronomy may depend on if you have other interests that are more accessible and affordabe.

Myself i love the relaxation of enjoying any view (daytime & night) via some niceish optics ?