Flocking?

[emyliano2000]

Hi guys.

I live in Watford, UK (light polluted area) and I'm trying to do everything I can to improve what I can see through my scope (SW 200p). Last week I had a couple of clear nights and I decided to go on a hunt for M31 Andromeda Galaxy  and M81 Bode's Nebulae. I'm a newbie in astronomy (I still haven't worked out how to use the RA setting circle).  After a few attempts I managed to find M31 and M81 but I was hoping to see a bit more than something like a very little cloud that you could barely see even after 20 min of continuous looking through the eyepiece (32mm TeleVue plossl).  I tried to see if there's any difference with the Orion Ultrablock filter but it wasn't that great. I'm waiting for a DGM Optics NPB Nebulae filter to arrive from the States and I'll get a Baader Neodymium filter for my birthday next week and I'm hoping that will make a difference but I'm wondering if flocking the telescope would greatly improve the image.

Since I got the telescope I've done more research than looking at the stars. This is how I found http://www.deepskywatch.com/Articles/flocking-newtonian.html

Does it worth doing it?

And what should I use to blacken the back of mirror?

[Charic]

I hide in the shadows in my garden, from within a tent in Winter, and  sometimes use an extension to shield the scopes aperture from stray light, but nothing beats a darker sky  to see any real change, flock all you like, but from what I read, you can only just make out M31.

I was the same from my garden, a tiny little smudge, surely that can't be it.............it was?

But from a darker place away from my home, M31 trully fills my eyepiece, so much that I needed the SW25mm to get a better look,  then the 60° 25mm Starguider, and now my 70° 32mm Panaview, and still cant get it all in?  Its like I own a different telescope!

Get to a darker place before you commit to flocking, try it out first

[David Smith]

Flocking is not difficult to do and it will help to improve contrast,as would adding a light shield to the front aperture. Neither of these will transform the view of Andromeda that you describe in your post but will subtly enhance it. As Charic says above, the only real cure for this is to go to a dark site.

[rockystar]

I had a look at M31 thorough a 22" scope at a dark site last weekend, it was still only a cloud like thing, just a bigger one than I see from my back garden with my 8". But I could also see M32 and 110, which I haven't seen before with my set up.

It wasn't very dark last weekend though, so this time of year doesn't really help. I recently flocked my, and I've used it twice since; but without a side-by-side comparison, i'm undecided if it has made a difference.

I used small bits of the flocking material for the back of the secondary.

 

[Charic]

5 minutes ago, rockystar said:

I had a look at M31 thorough a 22" scope at a dark site last weekend, it was still only a cloud like thing, just a bigger one than I see from my back garden with my 8".

 

That surprises me!......... from my back garden M31 is just viewable, the core and only a wisp of light,  but from a dark site, it fills the eyepiece and I can make out the shape and lanes much better.
Something else appears to be amiss if the image was no better from a 22" over your Skyliner, but I was not there to witness the image, so still left surprised.

[Stu]

12 minutes ago, rockystar said:

I had a look at M31 thorough a 22" scope at a dark site last weekend, it was still only a cloud like thing, just a bigger one than I see from my back garden with my 8". But I could also see M32 and 110, which I haven't seen before with my set up.

It wasn't very dark last weekend though, so this time of year doesn't really help. I recently flocked my, and I've used it twice since; but without a side-by-side comparison, i'm undecided if it has made a difference.

I used small bits of the flocking material for the back of the secondary.

 

With a large scope you will only be looking at a small part of M31 so it may not seem that impressive. It won't be any brighter than with your scope, just bigger. You would need to pan around to see the dust lanes etc possibly? Obviously the light nights will not be helping at all, best wait for proper dark skies

[rockystar]

it was too light Charic, it just didn't get dark. I probably underplayed it a bit. It was much better than in my scope, but there was no detail, still just a big fuzzy cloud.

I think I was trying to say: "wait until it gets properly dark"; and then I'll have another look and probably be blown away.

[Charic]

ok, that makes sense.
Conditions from my garden,  with street lighting, compared to a dark road not miles miles away from my house, where the Milkyway can cast a shadow,? the difference  viewing M31 is stunning here, using the Skyliner, when conditions allow.
 

[Richard Hather]

I was much more impressed with the open clusters I viewed M11 and M16, a lot more satisfying to observe and sketch in my opinion.

M31 I just couldn't get enough detail a slightly brighter core then other galaxies I've observed and slightly more wisps of dust at one side and that's about it.

Maybe once it gets darker more detail will present itself can't wait to find out.

clear skies✨??☄?

Richard

[Louis D]

Flocking should help the most with bright, but low contrast objects like Jupiter and the other planets.  If you don't want to disassemble your whole scope, start by putting some flocking material on the side of the tube opposite the focuser.  Any stray light hitting that area has a nearly direct path into your eyepiece, only being blocked by your secondary assembly.

[ronl]

I flocked my 200p when I upgraded my focuser, It does help a little with contrast, but it is not

a wonder solution to light pollution, as Charic has said you can't beat a dark or darker site than

you have at the moment, and a dew shield helps to cut out some stray light, spend your money 

on fuel and get out of town, that's the best solution, the difference flocking makes at a dark site

is about the same, just better contrast, I personally think it was worth it, and it helps you to take

care of your scope too, stripping the scope down and reassembling gives you more confidence  to

do other things on your scope, it's quite an easy task really, I was quiet nervous  at first but once

I had done the job and also fitted my new focuser I was quite chuffed, the focuser by the way is

wonderful that is well worth the upgrade.

[Roy Challen]

Hi emyliano, I'm in Watford too, and we're pretty stuffed when it comes to light pollution. I gave up imaging because of it ( and not having the budget to go to narrowband). I also don't bother wasting my time with deep sky objects (galaxies and nebulae- clusters are ok). I don't mean to dismay you but as mentioned, dark skies are the only decent answer to the problem. How willing would you be to take your scope up to West Herts Golf Course? I used to do this with all my imaging stuff on a trolley (didn't have a car), and it's surprisingly worthwhile. If you have a car then a trip up to the Chilterns would get you decent dark skies - at least compared to Watford.

An alternative to flocking material is blackboard paint (I have plenty if you want some).

Other factors affecting you viewing are the time of the year - it just doesn't get properly dark in summer. By September you will notice a lot of difference by 10pm. Also, as you say you are new to astronomy, perhaps your technique needs refining. Patience is a requirement when doing visual astronomy. You need to let your eyes dark adapt, and then you need to spend quite some time observing the object to pick out details. Sometimes 'averted vision' helps - not looking straight at the object but slightly to one side can help bring out details otherwise unseen.

Filters can help ( I personally don't use them) but remember, all filters block light entering the telescope, they won't make a dim object brighter - only enhance it's contrast against the background.

PM me if you have any other 'Watford observing' related questions, and I'll do my best to help!

[Louis D]

If you've got a few grand lying around, look into getting a gen-3 light intensifier to better see faint objects.  Check out the Electronically Assisted Astronomy forums on Cloudy Nights for details.

[2STAR]

20 hours ago, Charic said:

That surprises me!......... from my back garden M31 is just viewable, the core and only a wisp of light,  but from a dark site, it fills the eyepiece and I can make out the shape and lanes much better.
Something else appears to be amiss if the image was no better from a 22" over your Skyliner, but I was not there to witness the image, so still left surprised.

This was at Winscar Reservoir, it was not the best seeing there due to time of year and some high cloud toward NE also Andromeda was not really at its best altitude so all in all although better by a mile than my back yard, not the best for viewing, with averted vision I could just barely  make out the shape and core, I have seen it much better from my back yard .Usually it can be seen  with the naked eye from Winscar.  By the way viewing Clusters and doubles through Mapstars 22" is a whole new ballgame, absolutley fantastic, you get the feeling looking at clusters in particular is like viewing in 3D and you could tumble inside them, 

[rockystar]

44 minutes ago, 2STAR said:

By the way viewing Clusters and doubles through Mapstars 22" is a whole new ballgame, absolutley fantastic, you get the feeling looking at clusters in particular is like viewing in 3D and you could tumble inside them, 

Oh, indeed - M15 was amazing, so many stars could be identified; this from my back garden, in my scope was just a small fuzzy blob.

[2STAR]

11 hours ago, rockystar said:

Oh, indeed - M15 was amazing, so many stars could be identified; this from my back garden, in my scope was just a small fuzzy blob.

Wait until we get the dark sky at Winscar with the Milky Way up there and have a look at M15 through Damians monster  Scope, its fantastic, looks awesome lol

eric

[wookie1965]

I flocked my 200p after getting it second hand and needed to clean the mirror,  it does stop stray light bouncing round the tube and does help with contrast. I noticed the difference on my 150p when a fellow sgler on here did it for me as I was a newbie,  but it's not that hard. 

[triton1]

I too did the same but didn't stop there also flocked inside of the focuser and then oh well flocked the back of the primary and then using blackboard paint went round the edges of the primary and the secondary and the outside of parts of the focuser it certainly does look extremely black down the tube and definitely has improved the contrast,well worth the £13 spent and a mornings labour.

[brantuk]

All good tips above - you do need to get away from any white light to enjoy viewing galaxies. Ensure your eyes are fully dark adapted for best views (i.e. no white light for 20-30mins). In a light polluted environment you can pop a black towel or cloth over your head - but don't scare the kids lol.

Use a low power wide angle eyepiece to get M81/M82 in the same fov - you can clearly see the difference between a "face on" and "edge on" galaxy. And M31 always looks like an elongated smudge - but extra aperture does make the dust lanes more obvious. Also try viewing M31 with binoculars - you'll be amazed how much fun that can be - my 15x70's gave a surprising wow moment even after using a scope. The only other way to get more detail is with long exposure photography.