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Horse hunting.

alan potts

By alan potts
in Observing - Reports

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alan potts

alan potts

Posted
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It sounds harsh and I don't think it has been banned which is good as there are a few of us at this moment trying to track it down.

With a good 10 inches of snow still on the ground and for some reason a fairly clear observatory roof, which was pleasing, I ventured out in the dark dressed for Everest.

Armed basically only with horse hunting tools I set the 12 inch Meade up to slew to IC 434, the letters of which I once said stood for Insignificant Cluster, this however is not one of those but it sure takes some seeing by all accounts.

The evening was a skinny dipping 2 degress and getting gradually colder, transparency was top draw, seeing I thought was good, it looked it on the alignment stars. This is something I check from time to time on this scope just to keep the goto on its toes, with trying to see a difficult object I wanted the scope to at least be within a country mile of the target.

While the scope was ambling around from Deneb I tried to see M33 after Yong told me the other day it can be seen with the naked eye, something I for one never knew. With binos in hand to check, sure enough there it was, not exactly jumping about screaming but there nonetheless. I must have seen this before but it never occured to me it was M33, a downside of using goto's for so long.

So the scope was in position in the correct place, after reading so many reports and seeing pictures on site I felt I could find it in my sleep. At first I was just using the 24mm Panoptic as this is the largest 1.25 inch eyepiece I own giving X127,  being a cheapskate I only bought the small Astronomik's filter, the 2 inch size was almost 200 pounds and I thought a bit dear. After a few minutes I came to the conclusion I was not going to see it with the eyepiece alone, so fitted the H Beta filter.

The first thing I though was how difficult it was to focus stars with the filter in place the view seemed far from pinsharp. I made myself as comfortable as I could and concentrated on the patch where I thought it may be. Faint but visible nebulous patches seem to drift in and out and I kept thinking I was seeing the area as I remembered it from photographs, of course it was no where near as clear and in fact it was hard work even teasing out what bit I was able to see. The other thing that on my mind was the fact that I didn't know what orientation the Horses Head would take on, with the: type of scope, position in the sky and the angle of the diagonal.

It was becoming clear to me this was no easy task with a 12 inch scope though I was starting to formulate the opinion that seeing was going down the plughole fast. I removed the filter and checked the focus of the stars that I could see and sure enough it was far from good, but I battled on, it's almost a sickness with me when hunting a target. I tried moving the scope very slightly in each direction to see if it would highlight anything by movement but this was really to no great advantage. I kept thinking I was seeing something with averted vision and then it was gone, a few times I was stuggling to see anything at all then it was back again making me believe there was hope. After the best part of 2 hours I gave in and slewed to M42 and changed to the 35mm Panoptic, I could not believe it when the scope got there, I could bearly see the 4 stars of the trapizium, time to call it a night and open a bottle of fine red.

I should of course know better, where Orion is at the moment is the direction of the town, even though 5 miles away it has an effect but not always, I guess that is the nature of seeing. I feel this IC 434, which I now rename Infuriating Cluster, is doable with the 12 inch scope from my location, but on a better night of seeing when the constellation is in a different position in my sky, it will not be long before it sits due south with only open vales and mountains for miles.

I hope anyone else having a go for this target has better luck but my, it's a tough one.

Alan 

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John

John

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Nice report Alan - sorry your didn't get the nags head on this occasion.

Seeing M33 naked eye was a good result. I've not managed this even from the SGL star party site in Herefordshire which is darker than my back garden. I can see it with 7x35 binoculars or an optical finder from home though.

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alan potts

alan potts

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Drop of Sun,

I didn't look for the flame which is a bit daft as it is only just the other side of the belts end star who's name escapes me but begins with 'A'. I remember seeing the Flame wonderfully well last year when I got the 18 inch, it stood out as bold as brass, I wrongly though it was the Packman nebula as the orientation to me looked just like that. Still I guess if you can't glimpse these things in what is a fairly large scope you never will.

I have seen the flame before with the 12 inch a few times but never looked for the HH before, I am sure it's there within the scope and site.

Alan.

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laudropb

laudropb

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Very enjoyable report. I almost felt as if I was there with you. It will be doable with your 12 inch scope. I have seen it with my 8 inch Dob, but that was from a very dark site and under exceptionally good seeing conditions. One of those rare evenings when the sky was rock steady and crystal clear. I am sure that your dedication will win out in the end and you will get your view of the elusive Horsey.

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Paul73

Paul73

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Great read, Alan. Any joy seeing the Flame? From my efforts so far, no Flame means no nag. Nudging the scope helped me and averted vision was a must.

Main thing I want to catch on s good night at the mo is M51, SGL9 was the best I've seen it for a while.

Granted. But, most of the time, nice Flame = Empty Stable......

To be fair my 10" is probably not up to the HH even though the Flame can be a really nice site.

Paul

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jetstream

jetstream

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Great report Alan! Yes you're going to need a 2" Hb and a 50mm ep possibly for the LX to see the HH IMHO, in that range anyway. Do you have a UHC? You have a very good chance of seeing it in your f4.3 dob with the 21E/UHC under VG conditions, but the 2" Hb would be better.

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alan potts

alan potts

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Gerry,

Where I was coming from with the filter size was I intended all along to use the 18 inch with the 24mm Panoptic giving me X95 with the mirror being 458mm, thats an exit pupil of 4.8, I was led to believe 4 was optimum.

On the Meade at 305mm it is a mear 2.4mm, maybe the focal reducer could come into play a little, this would drop the power to X80 and increase the exit pupil to 3.8mm.

What do you think.

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jetstream

jetstream

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If I remembered your scope is f4.3? If so then the 24 Pan/4.3= 5.6mm, perfect! The 21E is so hard to beat for contrast that I always think of stuff around this EP, they are amazing.

I personally think that 5mm or over is best with an Hb, in any scope- I've tried many combo's and now need a 2" Hb myself to continue this playing around. On really faint stuff I'm not so sure a reducer will work...mine doesn't anyway.

For the heck of it try the Spider and Fly in Auriga, they are another good test of things and are excellent practise, eventhough completely different than the line of IC434 you are trying to see, and the missing notch out of it.

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Paul73

Paul73

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Alan

Do your exit pupil calculations / viewing include your Paracorr ?

I believe that, for me, the Magic contrast / brightness exit pupil is between 4 and 4.8mm. Much over 5mm and I start losing contrast (I except this on the wide fields but no good for the really faint stuff).

Paul

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Drop Of Sun

Drop Of Sun

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I've had no joy from home with 10 inch Paul (okay skies, not as dark as SGL - Lucksall).

I've seen the Flame several times with my 16 inch dob without seeing the Horsehead. And have never seen the HH when I couldn't see the Flame!

I am a bit unsure though what filters (or not) I used on the Flame each time :embarrassed:  Last time out, I could see Flame faintly with Astronomik H-Beta and the Horsey was fainter still but there!

I wonder if SGL 11 is early enough to have another crack before end of season?

Granted. But, most of the time, nice Flame = Empty Stable......

To be fair my 10" is probably not up to the HH even though the Flame can be a really nice site.

Paul

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alan potts

alan potts

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Don't forget I use a Paracorr so objective dia devided by magnification is a better way, I think with the PC the scope is F 5 as near as makes no difference. The maths is the same result either way, but your correct it is F 4.33 without it.

I could leave off the PC to make a variation but either way I am not going to spend 200 quid on a filter for so few objects, at the end of the day that is almost the cost of a Delite eyepiece.

Orion is getting better for me all the time so assuming a few clear nights once the Moon gets out the way again I think I should crack this, as I said the snow is just too bad at the moment to get the Sumerian out.

Paul,

I calculate it as listed above using the mirror size, it is just the way I have always done it. It's the same either way as I am sure you know but I do use the PC allk the time but could try without just for a test.

alan

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estwing

estwing

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Great report Alan! Yes you're going to need a 2" Hb and a 50mm ep possibly for the LX to see the HH IMHO, in that range anyway. Do you have a UHC? You have a very good chance of seeing it in your f4.3 dob with the 21E/UHC under VG conditions, but the 2" Hb would be better.

and that's how i bagged it Gerry...21/uhc...Alan I spent nearly an hour an half on it....felt bushed after seeing it!

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scarp15

scarp15

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I prefer not to use a paracorr when using the 2" H-beta filter. Less glass in the light path and lower mag / slightly larger exit pupil with my two TV plossl eyepieces. When I finally got to glimpse it about a year ago, I used my TV 25 Plossl, which in my 14" scope gave an exit pupil of 5.4 and mag of x64. When / if I get another opportunity, I would like to attempt with both TV25 and TV20mm plossls (4.34 exit pupil, x80). 

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jetstream

jetstream

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and that's how i bagged it Gerry...21/uhc...Alan I spent nearly an hour an half on it....felt bushed after seeing it!

great observing Calvin! It surprises me how well the 21E/UHC combo works, and in you guys scopes it is near optimum. If I ever get a BIG dob  :icon_biggrin:  it will be an f3.8-f4 to maximize this EP for filter use I like it that much...

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alan potts

alan potts

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Errrr of course Gerry I use a 15 inch scope as a finder. I do have a 2 inch UHC so can give that a try when the snow melts , there's too much still at the moment to get the other scopes out.

When I get the chances, I'm sure they will come, I can play about with the Meade and the Sumerian with different eyepiece/filter combinations and see what works best. Apart from the SE area of my sky where the town lies the sky is as good as anywhere I have been and I have been out in some very remote places at night, dark forces or what :evil3: .

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PeterW

PeterW

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Elan this weekend... Someone better pack some thermals. If they get transparent skies the horse is bound to relent to the dob onslaught! Ic434 was very faint last week (the first clear evening in years)

Keep trying, it is there!

PEterW

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alan potts

alan potts

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I had another look last night but to make matters worse I found the Horse's head, or should I say the rest of its body had found a way of hiding behind clouds and dragging them around, just about the only ones in the sky. sadly it was not naked eye like down at Elan, I have to admit to not knowing where that is, but is sounds nice. 

It was a damp night and though the scope was not dewing up on the collector plate the rest of it was fairly wet, and hours later it was raining. I got up at 3 o'clock to feed the heating system and the sky was totally stunning though Orion was on it's way down, really surprising how the sky changes in only a month. I thought about but could not get the bed anchor off my leg. At 6 o'clock when I got up the view of Venus over with Antares and the top part of Scorpius was a treat, again it was only just a month back where the rival of Mars was almost lost in the Sun rise.

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