New To AP.... end to spending?

[RichM63]

On the plus side, once you have everything set up and working correctly you'll never need to spend anything again (even if you want to).

Although TBH, I think that this set up is way overkill, for a novice (you may not be IDK), clearly the rig is designed for a truly dedicated/experienced amateur or professional astronomer.

You would probably receive more detailed advice if you add the rig details into a signature and head into the dedicated imaging forums, where the guys who use this kit live.

(I can only dream about a mount like that.   )

Edit, Olly found you.

[ollypenrice]

By the way, the point does eventually come when you have a stable system which you don't intend to change for a very long time. This is great because you can then concentrate on taking pictures. In our case this stability is provided by a pair of old FSQ106Ns on a Mesu Mount 200 and a pair of full frame CCD cameras. It just works. We don't change it, we don't disturb it, we just go out and use it. Both scopes and the mount were bought second hand so, while this is a lavish setup, it cost a lot less than its new equivalent. This rig also has an underlying pholosophy, viz;

- Speed in AP is of the essence.

- Very fast optics need very time consuming attention so two easy scopes beat one complicated one.

- Refractors are easy and Petzvals don't need chip spacing.

- 3.5 arcsecs per pixel makes everything more tolerant. Focus, guiding, seeing.

This is a 'get on with it' rig. It's a sky Hoover.

Olly

[DaveS]

I wanted to do both and all signs point to it being a decent refractor for visual. There other factors at play and I won't go into it. Another quote...

In the opposite direction, with the 5-element 1.6x Extender Q, the scope can be transformed to an 850mm FL telescope at f8. That’s super kool. This configuration is what you would want to use if you were to visually observe planets or the moon. However, make no mistake that this is a wide field instrument, and you should not expect much in terms of planetary scale.

I think this is where the problem lies. Even as an apprentice imager I've come to realise that you cannot do both with one 'scope. If you want to do imaging then you need to set up your imaging train and *leave it alone*. Every time you dismantle things to swap from imaging to visual and back again you're introducing errors, having to re-focus etc, and worse, you are introducing DUST!

If you want to do visual as well as imaging then you need separate dedicated telescopes for both, preferably on two separate mounts. Sorry.

[ollypenrice]

I agree with Dave above. Once you have an imaging rig working the one thing you do not want to do is touch it! If you change the colour of the lens cap you can expect your guiding to play up for two weeks.... It really is a bit like that.

Olly

[michaelmorris]

 The spending has to stop at some point..... right? Heavy sigh. I mean in theory, once you have everything working properly the spending part ends....?

Sorry, I nearly fell off my chair laughing ....   :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

[Liquid360]

Just so I understand, you don't believe that a 850mm f8 Refractor shouldn't be used for visual work? And that portable AP setups are a bad idea? Both of those assumptions fly in the face of every single thing I've heard and read. Portable GEMs seem to be the fastest growing sector for mounts. Most people live in the midst of light polluted skies. My mount, once my guide cam is connected uses auto plate solving and is fully automated making it very easy to setup anywhere. My problem/complaint is that the expense of associated gear has been so high and never seems to end, but the kit I have purchased is brilliant beyond belief, stellar even. Also I did purchase a used SV90 Raptor although I've yet to set it up in the field.

I think this is where the problem lies. Even as an apprentice imager I've come to realise that you cannot do both with one 'scope. If you want to do imaging then you need to set up your imaging train and *leave it alone*. Every time you dismantle things to swap from imaging to visual and back again you're introducing errors, having to re-focus etc, and worse, you are introducing DUST!

If you want to do visual as well as imaging then you need separate dedicated telescopes for both, preferably on two separate mounts. Sorry.

[DaveS]

No, that's not quite what I said. The Tak 106 is a fine 'scope for visual as well. What I did say was that's it's a mistake to try and use the same 'scope for both. You'll never get the optical train stable. So set up the Tak as you want for imaging with the reducer if you want, spacers as needed, filter wheel and camera. Get the kinks out of it, then leave it. Never look through it again. I haven't looked through my Meg 90 for a long time, and I don't expect to again.

Get another 'scope for visual, depending on your interests. That's what the Mak 180 in my sig is for, and why I'm budgeting a Mesu for imaging. The Mak will go in the HEQ5 for visual.

If I absolutely had to be mobile for imaging I don't think I'd go the Paramount route, or Mesu either. I'd be looking for something a lot lighter, CEM 60 perhaps.

[Davey-T]

There's no doubt that a permanent imaging set up is the best solution, carrying it all to site and setting up (best done in daylight) is time consuming, needs power supply and a check list to make sure you've got everything ( a careless person could forget the weights  )

Dave

[wxsatuser]

I think this is where the problem lies. Even as an apprentice imager I've come to realise that you cannot do both with one 'scope. If you want to do imaging then you need to set up your imaging train and *leave it alone*. Every time you dismantle things to swap from imaging to visual and back again you're introducing errors, having to re-focus etc, and worse, you are introducing DUST!

If you want to do visual as well as imaging then you need separate dedicated telescopes for both, preferably on two separate mounts. Sorry.

I found this out the hard way.

Thought it would be easy to do normal AP and eyepiece projection with my SW 80ED.

Absolute nightmare removing one lot to fit another lot, arrrrrgh!

Now I'm happy with the little Borg on the main mount and lenses for widerfield on an Astrotrac.

Just want some clear nights, pretty please!

[Stu]

The problem when used for visual is that the CAA eats up back focus. Removing it requires yet another adapter to attach a diagonal which even requires a diagonal which instead of a barrel attaches straight to the back to create more back focus. Here's my ever increasing collection of adapters, connectors, reducer/extender, etc... I went into this wanting to be able to do everything the scope is capable of. Obviously I've gone into the "bad place". My issue is that I wasn't explained to up front and when will it end. It might seem irrational but I wanted to enjoy the scope visually before connecting all of the gear... get to know it a piece at a time. Am I being unreasonable to expect that all of this should've been explained during the purchases and not after?

These tiny metal rings run from $100 on up.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1415575652.161816.jpg

Personally I think you spent too much on Breathsavers, without those you would have been fine ;-) :-)

In all seriousness, I am a purely visual observer and like you never seem to be able to resist shiny new (or shiny used) things. I am almost at an end point currently, but I suspect it will be more of a pause than a complete stop to spending.

There are plenty of ways of going about imaging I'm sure. Taking your time building up experience with entry level kit, or diving in at the deep end with a high end setup. The risk with your way is that it takes a long time to get payback in terms of results as you learn what is likely to be a complex system. Any purchasing mistakes you make are likely to be expensive too as you are totally reliant on advice from others to make your decisions. Many choices come down to personal preference on how things work at a detailed level and that needs time to understand.

As long as you are in this for the long haul then there's nothing wrong with your approach. Owning kit like that will be a pleasure in itself.

We have all made mistakes or cost ourselves money in buying the wrong things but we get there in the end. Taks are notorious for requiring numerous adaptors to achieve correct focus. Especially for visual as they tend to be targeted at imaging where back focus is more critical to have.

I hope you get sorted soon

Stu

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Thalestris24]

Just so I understand, you don't believe that a 850mm f8 Refractor shouldn't be used for visual work? And that portable AP setups are a bad idea? Both of those assumptions fly in the face of every single thing I've heard and read. Portable GEMs seem to be the fastest growing sector for mounts. Most people live in the midst of light polluted skies. My mount, once my guide cam is connected uses auto plate solving and is fully automated making it very easy to setup anywhere. My problem/complaint is that the expense of associated gear has been so high and never seems to end, but the kit I have purchased is brilliant beyond belief, stellar even. Also I did purchase a used SV90 Raptor although I've yet to set it up in the field.

The SV90 looks to be a nice, reasonably priced imaging scope. But it has a similar fov to the Tak you have? As it's lightweight (if it's the cf one?), I guess it would be good for portability. You would need a field flattener/reducer for it. They don't make it anymore for some reason - maybe problems with the carbon fibre tube as they've replaced it with the aluminium tube SV90T.

In the UK:

"Never in the field of amateur astronomy has so much been spent by so many for so little imaging time..."

You don't need expensive kit for plate solving - I use Astrotortilla. It's free!

Remember - the best kit is the one you use!!

Louise

Edit: Ah, looking at your pic, I guess you are using the SV90 as a guidescope? A bit overkill, lol. I'd love one for a main imaging scope!!!

[Davey-T]

When you eventually get some images you'll have even more trouble processing them to look like the pretty pictures posted on forums 

Don't expect too much too soon and don't give up.

Dave

[Scott]

When you eventually get some images you'll have even more trouble processing them to look like the pretty pictures posted on forums 

Don't expect too much too soon and don't give up.

Dave

Never a truer word spoken (or typed). . I always thought that once the capture was sorted the processing would just fall into place...boy was I wrong. It's where astrophotography really starts to get interesting .

[ollypenrice]

The most important thing in imaging is a good sky so if you have to travel to get one then so be it.

If this is the case then you cannot follow the golden rule of never touching your kit. You'll have to touch it. However, to save time I'd note things like focus position, camera orientation etc and I'd have the same wiring loom partially assembled with clear labels. Note your USB ports as well and never vary them. Many of the people who come here regularly with thier own gear are superbly organized and get going pretty quickly, though It might take over an hour to get set up even for the best in the business.

Olly

[Liquid360]

I'm feeling a bit like you're thinking I just one day decided to buy lots of kit blindly and without forethought. This is not the case. Would my life be made easier by a big yard and permanent observatory? yup. Is it work to setup and breakdown for imaging sessions? Yup.

I'm left somewhat confused by people's reaction here. When I bought my first scope and developed an interest in AP I was told by everybody in the know that it was expensive. They explained in detail what would be needed and why. I searched the web and read for a couple years trying to decide what sort of images I wanted to aspire to and learned what equipment was used to take them. I didn't have the option to try out equipment. Alabama isn't exactly the center of the AP universe. I bought my dream kit and ran into some glitches and issues and I posted here.

It takes me an hour or so to break down/put together. I have a 48v lithium battery for the mount and a 35ah 12v for the rest. Lots of power. I mentioned the plate solving because I keep getting told how complicated and time consuming setup is, but it's not. It's mostly automated. I'm very proficient when it comes to post and know my way around all Adobe software and can figure out the rest quite easily. I just am a bit confused by reactions here. A permanent pier just isn't an option. I want to do DSO AP and I like nice equipment. What exactly are you telling me I should've done? With Deep Space Ap as the goal I've picked up good equipment, software, and enough experience to get started as well as having the entire internet to answer questions. I think I'm doing pretty well all things considered.

[Moonshane]

I am visual only and have concluded that rather than buy more and more expensive wider field eyepieces, it is more cost effective to buy a different OTA for different purposes. In essence I am beginning to have dedicated telescopes for different things. i have bought a PST stage 2 mod, a 120mm f5 for solar white light and a 80mm f11 for moon and doubles, pretty much for your additional costs of £1k. although I am talking about a different branch of astronomy, if you replace eyepieces for adapters then it applies I think?

[Thalestris24]

I'm feeling a bit like you're thinking I just one day decided to buy lots of kit blindly and without forethought. This is not the case. Would my life be made easier by a big yard and permanent observatory? yup. Is it work to setup and breakdown for imaging sessions? Yup.

I'm left somewhat confused by people's reaction here. When I bought my first scope and developed an interest in AP I was told by everybody in the know that it was expensive. They explained in detail what would be needed and why. I searched the web and read for a couple years trying to decide what sort of images I wanted to aspire to and learned what equipment was used to take them. I didn't have the option to try out equipment. Alabama isn't exactly the center of the AP universe. I bought my dream kit and ran into some glitches and issues and I posted here.

It takes me an hour or so to break down/put together. I have a 48v lithium battery for the mount and a 35ah 12v for the rest. Lots of power. I mentioned the plate solving because I keep getting told how complicated and time consuming setup is, but it's not. It's mostly automated. I'm very proficient when it comes to post and know my way around all Adobe software and can figure out the rest quite easily. I just am a bit confused by reactions here. A permanent pier just isn't an option. I want to do DSO AP and I like nice equipment. What exactly are you telling me I should've done? With Deep Space Ap as the goal I've picked up good equipment, software, and enough experience to get started as well as having the entire internet to answer questions. I think I'm doing pretty well all things considered.

Hi

Um, you started this thread by complaining about the expense... There's nothing wrong with your kit - it's awesome! Awesome but very expensive! Like Rolls-Royces even buying a small accessory is expensive. That's just how it goes. But really you're running into problems because you're trying to use the same setup for imaging and visual. It's not that you can't do that, it's just that it's not advisable (in my inexperienced opinion). TBH, whenever I get clear skies (rare here in Glasgow!), I want to image. I wouldn't want to faff around with my imaging scope converting it into a visual system and then back again. If I wanted to do visual whilst my imaging rig was doing it's thing (if I was energetic enough and imaging was proceeding flawlessly...), I'd have a second scope and mount for it, or a dob. Simples!

I'd just say that all you need to do with you're fine equipment is to get imaging!!

Louise

[swag72]

I'm feeling a bit like you're thinking I just one day decided to buy lots of kit blindly and without forethought. This is not the case. Would my life be made easier by a big yard and permanent observatory? yup. Is it work to setup and breakdown for imaging sessions? Yup.

I'm left somewhat confused by people's reaction here. When I bought my first scope and developed an interest in AP I was told by everybody in the know that it was expensive. They explained in detail what would be needed and why. I searched the web and read for a couple years trying to decide what sort of images I wanted to aspire to and learned what equipment was used to take them. I didn't have the option to try out equipment. Alabama isn't exactly the center of the AP universe. I bought my dream kit and ran into some glitches and issues and I posted here.

It takes me an hour or so to break down/put together. I have a 48v lithium battery for the mount and a 35ah 12v for the rest. Lots of power. I mentioned the plate solving because I keep getting told how complicated and time consuming setup is, but it's not. It's mostly automated. I'm very proficient when it comes to post and know my way around all Adobe software and can figure out the rest quite easily. I just am a bit confused by reactions here. A permanent pier just isn't an option. I want to do DSO AP and I like nice equipment. What exactly are you telling me I should've done? With Deep Space Ap as the goal I've picked up good equipment, software, and enough experience to get started as well as having the entire internet to answer questions. I think I'm doing pretty well all things considered.

Do you know what - If you are happy with the kit that you have, then does it matter what other people think? Does it really matter if they think that you've bought lots of kit blindly? 

I think perhaps you may benefit from pulling away for a minute and asking yourself what you want? Do you want /  need  /  crave people's approval? How is that going to change what you do or buy?

If you are happy with your progress then that's all that matters. Have the courage of your convictions and go it alone without the need for other peoples approval or thoughts on the matter.

Just my 2p worth from a solitary imager on the Iberian Peninsula.

[wuthton]

I just am a bit confused by reactions here. 

Everybody is just jealous.

What exactly are you telling me I should've done? 

I think you've done just fine you just need to iron out the wrinkles.

Most people starting out with serious AP begin at point A: DSLR, prime focus.

Point B: Add computer control for pointing.

Point C: Add autoguiding.

Point D: Buy a CCD.

Point E: Start upgrading everything.

Point F: The realisation that you are the problem not the equipment.

Each of these points requires a whole new skill set. You've started at point F (and why not), you just need need to learn everything all at once.

If I were you I'd forget plate solving and visual for now. Concentrate on achieving good polar alignment, get your guiding nailed and achieve good focus.

If it makes you feel any better I've got a box full of rings, spacers, adapters and bits that I have no idea what they are. The total cost of my box of unused bits and pieces is probably well into four figures.

[Thalestris24]

Everybody is just jealous.

I think you've done just fine you just need to iron out the wrinkles.

Most people starting out with serious AP begin at point A: DSLR, prime focus.

Point B: Add computer control for pointing.

Point C: Add autoguiding.

Point D: Buy a CCD.

Point E: Start upgrading everything.

Point F: The realisation that you are the problem not the equipment.

Each of these points requires a whole new skill set. You've started at point F (and why not), you just need need to learn everything all at once.

If I were you I'd forget plate solving and visual for now. Concentrate on achieving good polar alignment, get your guiding nailed and achieve good focus.

If it makes you feel any better I've got a box full of rings, spacers, adapters and bits that I have no idea what they are. The total cost of my box of unused bits and pieces is probably well into four figures.

I don't agree that people are jealous. I think we are more concerned that the op has all the gear yet is complaining that he hasn't done any imaging yet!

We all want him to get on and do it and to admire the images he gets! I absolutely love looking at other peoples' excellent images - whether made by a Tak or a 130pds And there are some superb images made by both on these forums.

Strongly agree about doing one step at a time! Still the op has jumped in... I hope he can get up and running and imaging soon!

Louise

[Scott]

This thread seems to be losing it's way. can we try and keep it on topic which is if memory serves "does the spending ever stop"

We all have opinions and make assumptions but lets keep them civil please

[michaelmorris]

Seriously.  I've been dabbling (not making concerted effort) with deep sky imaging with DSLRs for a about 4 years now, and it's only in the last couple of years that I think I've started to get a reasonable grip on it - or at least I kid myself I have and then I find I've going back to square one again.  This evolution has come about by lots of research, a fair bit of practice, and a bit of trial and error (with the emphasis on the error part).

I still haven't got plate solving sorted, nor do I expect to with the busy life I have.

I think the secret is to be methodical, persistent and set yourself realistic, achievable goals.  OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) helps!  If you want to get to the very highest standards you have to gain 1000s hours experience; have oodles of talent and have some pretty deep pockets.  You also have to be pretty single-minded too.

I hope this helps

[Skipper Billy]

The spending never stops in any hobby !!!  Take golf - this years mega fantastic gold and titanium tipped clubs will certainly need replacing next year because the carbon shafted beryllium studded powered by dark matter set of clubs is out.

But a pro golfer could come along and tie a brick to a brush handle and out drive me again and again with one arm tied behind his back.

That doesnt mean I dont like new shiny things - I do - but I know I couldnt even come close to expoliting there full capabilities - which I why I am imaging with a secondhand HEQ5, secondhand ED80, guiding with a secondhand ST80 and secondhand QHY5 and a budget DSLR which was the only new thing I bought. Its all starting to clcik into place now and I have gone from this

to this

just with practice, adjustment, practise and adjustment, and some more practise and adjustment. All bargain basement cheapo gear. 

Is it world class?? No, far from it but it makes me very happy. 

I could afford a Takahashi and an Astro-Physics mount but would my imaging take a quantum leap ?? Probably not. But when I can run the wheels off the gear I have got and I can hand on heart say my equipment is my limiting factor then I will upgrade it.

There's no right or wrong way - if you can master high end gear from the start then good luck to you - but the spending will never end !!!

[Scott]

The spending never stops in any hobby !!!  Take golf - this years mega fantastic gold and titanium tipped clubs will certainly need replacing next year because the carbon shafted beryllium studded powered by dark matter set of clubs is out.

But a pro golfer could come along and tie a brick to a brush handle and out drive me again and again with one arm tied behind his back.

That doesnt mean I dont like new shiny things - I do - but I know I couldnt even come close to expoliting there full capabilities - which I why I am imaging with a secondhand HEQ5, secondhand ED80, guiding with a secondhand ST80 and secondhand QHY5 and a budget DSLR which was the only new thing I bought. Its all starting to clcik into place now and I have gone from this

M42.jpg

to this

M31.jpg

just with practice, adjustment, practise and adjustment, and some more practise and adjustment. All bargain basement cheapo gear. 

Is it world class?? No, far from it but it makes me very happy. 

I could afford a Takahashi and an Astro-Physics mount but would my imaging take a quantum leap ?? Probably not. But when I can run the wheels off the gear I have got and I can hand on heart say my equipment is my limiting factor then I will upgrade it.

There's no right or wrong way - if you can master high end gear from the start then good luck to you - but the spending will never end !!!

That Andromedais a cracker...was that done with your dslr or the 314l+ ?

[Moonshane]

I like Bill's comment as it does several things:

• Shows how important a starting benchmark is
• Shows the importance of small steps and changes with assessment after each
• Shows that you don't need to spend massive sums to get started
• Shows that it's the enjoyment that counts surely?

Even for visual, the spending never really stops unless you want it to.  No sooner do I run out of money than a widget I have wanted for a while or never even realised I needed pops up for sale.