Another Biggish Dob Ugrade Thread.....

[Paul73]

Hi Guys

I'm doing the preliminary research around upgrading to a bigger Dob. I've read a bunch of threads but could use your thoughts.

The 14" to 16" bracket should represent a good step up from my trusty 10" SW Dob. And, yes, I do know how big they are (have had double doors put in the back of the garage to accommodate)!

Here are the points for consideration:

1/ it will live assembled in the garage and be wheeled out to play in my back garden. I'm not too worried about dark sky trips.

2/ it would be good (but not essential) to be able to move it from one side of the garden to t'other during a session.

3/ I'm a DSO junky. Faint fuzzies and more detail in the brighter ones is the name of the game. Crisp planetary views would be a bonus.

4/ the sky - I can see down to about 5.7 with the naked eye.

5/ a bit of standing on a step for the higher targets would be OK.

6/ sadly lack of time precludes the DIY option.

7/ GoTo is not required.

8/ the budget is up to £2k for the scope only (Paracorr etc will be extra).

Lastly, I would like some comfort that I will see more fuzzies, the odd spiral arm in a few of the brighter galaxies, and that features such as Pickering's triangle (Veil) will be clearly visible rather than just hinted at as in my current scope.

I was pondering on the SW 400 FlexTube. Is the extra investment over the 14" worth it? Or should a I be looking at something completely different?

Sorry about the long list but I've tried to cover all of the bases.

Paul

[scarp15]

Hi Guys

Lastly, I would like some comfort that I will see more fuzzies, the odd spiral arm in a few of the brighter galaxies, and that features such as Pickering's triangle (Veil) will be clearly visible rather than just hinted at as in my current scope.

Hi I would just like to pick up on this point. A you clearly enjoy dark skies from home, speaking concerning my 14" dobsonian, which I transport to dark skies, the answer to each of the above is yes - clearly visible with direct vision. 

[John]

I'm not an expert in large dobs as 12" is a large as my viewing / storage circumstances will allow but if I was in your shoes I'd be looking very seriously at the non-GOTO Skywatcher 400 Flextube. They are very large but so is the 350 and I'd put some wheels of some sort on it and a level path from the double doors in the garage to the viewing area. I'd not want to go as far as a 350 only to leave a germ of aperture fever still active in nagging thoughts of the 400. Perhaps even 40cm does not cure it entirely though

On the Veil Nebula, if you don't already have one, budget for a good O-III filter. Pickerings Wisp is very nicely seen in my 12" dob with an O-III and even my little 4" refractor shows more than a hint of it.

[Daniel-K]

Get a meade 16" LB well worth it although some small mods are needed to balance it. But 2nd hand are about £1300

[spaceboy]

I agree with John on investing in an OIII filter what ever size dob you decide to go with as you really would be shocked at what a difference they make and your skies would be ideal.

[Paul73]

Thanks guys. My Lumicon O111 does the trick nicely on the Veil complex. The Triangle takes a bit of work in my 10". Sounds like even an extra 2" helps on this one.

I was just checking that I would get the benofit from the bigger scope rather than just magnifying light pollution

Paul

[Moonshane]

I agree that in your shoes a 16" scope would be a wonderful instrument. make no mistake either that you need to compromise on planetary detail. you don't. if you can get one then an f4 would be good as it is a lot easier on your feet than on a step.

I use my 12" a lot more than my 16" as I have to carry them outside but if I could roll it out of a garage under dark skies I would sell the 12".

go for it I say.

[Dude_with_the_tube]

my only concern is how really dark are your skies.Can you see milky way from your back garden? Reason of asking this:if your skies are not that dark,you will be wasting your money as from light polluted back garden no step up in aperture will help.If you can,then yeah,go for it.

[Paul73]

Yes. Milky Way is a clear streak across the sky. Andromeda and M42 are naked eye smudges. There is an annoying glow from the south which makes the lowest Sagittarius M's a bit of a challenge. Still haven't managed M6&7 from my house.

Paul

[estwing]

1 i too can just wheel out and view in mins and its not bad skies where i am but dark skies trips didnt bother me.....until i went, now i'd rather not use my dob from home wait until a new moon and pack the car and head for the dark....where i meet up with other unclean types and giggle

2 wheelbarrow handles

3 DSO junkies = dark sky trips...its the only way

4....

5 i agree, a tiny step isnt a major chore

i think a 16 LB would be a great second hand lightbucket 

[astronymonkey]

Hi paul,

I have a 16inch lightbridge and absolutely love it even under light polluted skies. The main mods that are needed would be to put some weights on the back to balance it better and add:a right angle finder as they come with a red dot finder as standard. The portability means you can get it under dark skies although ive made a smaller base to make it easier as like any 16inch scope they are big.

Another consideration coukd be the 16inch revelation which is about £1300 brand new and is well worth a look.

Cheers

[swamp thing]

Hi Paul

I'm probably not the right person to give advice here as I am a DSO junky and for me dark sky trips ARE what its all about.

For me buying larger and larger apertures to use under so so skies is like chasing phantoms.

The main advantages of larger apertures are image scale and resolution, but the object must have detail in order for us to resolve it. A featureless blob will otherwise become just a larger featureless blob when a bigger scope is employed. Contrast is where the detail is, to get contrast we must have dark skies.

Don't get me wrong any detail that can be seen will be improved by aperture but just don't expect objects to "Pop". Only dark skies can do this.

I'm not trying to talk you out of a larger scope, just to be realistic in your expectations. Dark skies are what DSO observing is about, not giant apertures

Good luck with your decision

[Paul73]

Steve

Thanks for the note of caution. That was exactly why I put in the bit about the darkness of my skys. The question is really - given my viewing conditions, is it worth buying a 16" light bucket, or will I be getting the max out of my sky with a 12" or 14"? The general consencious seems to be, "yes. Go for the 16". You'll get some great views, but it won't properly stretch it's legs until taken to a properly dark site."

Would you agree?

Paul

[swamp thing]

Difficult for me to say yes or no Paul I've not observed from your back yard

Your 10" is a great tool. I know I have a 10" they're excellent. 

The trouble is we are all different. When I sold my 16" LB i found that when observing from so so skies I didn't miss it. from dark skies I was climbing the walls with aperture fever.

[estwing]

always jumping 6" in app and also a truss type will be transported easier...can i ask Paul why you wont be taking it to dark skies?

[John]

always jumping 6" in app and also a truss type will be transported easier...can i ask Paul why you wont be taking it to dark skies?

I don't know about Paul but the reason I don't take my scopes to dark skies more than once a year (SGL star party) is that it's quite a lot of hassle to do so and that it takes me away from my family, which I always said my hobbies would not do

[estwing]

must say John, once viewed from dark skies... for me it was hard to observe again from home!!..damn you darkness!!

[John]

must say John, once viewed from dark skies... for me it was hard to observe again from home!!..damn you darkness!!

Oh I've seen what dark skies can do Calvin. But it's just a hobby .....

[Paul73]

Similar to John, family prevents much in the way of dark sky hi jinks. If domestic support is needed, I'm either in the garden or at least no further than the village pub (sitting with a pint as I type this). Reading about the adventures of the "Dobfesters" is always entertaining though.

I'm lucky to have half way decent skies so I'm looking to make the most of them! If I will get a good improvement by going for a 16" over a 14" over my 10". Then that is the way to go. I also have a very large car (vertually a van) so the odd trip with any of the contenders is doe able.

Other than price, does anyone have any thoughts about how the SkyWatcher, Mead and Revelation compare when actually in use? Forget the set up/transportation/price, but once set up and ready to go, how do they compare?

Paul

PS. 16" is nowhere near big enough for properly dark skies!

[quaoar]

You only live once cobber http://www.nicholoptical.co.uk/1310%2020%20inch%20F4.2.htm

[faulksy]

my skies are quite good, i can see the milky way naked eye m31 no problem, faint at the horizon or nothing but when you transport to a dark sky its like you have doubled your aperture. my advise is go with the biggest you can afford and handle, you might not gain to much but put a tenners worth of fuel in your car and take a drive you will then see the benefits of proper dark skys and were aperture comes in to play

[AndyWB]

On the Veil Nebula, if you don't already have one, budget for a good O-III filter. Pickerings Wisp is very nicely seen in my 12" dob with an O-III and even my little 4" refractor shows more than a hint of it.

I was going to make that point too - I've seen Pickering's Wisp and the two knots near it fairly well in my 10" with an Astronomik OIII filter (bought in no small part due to John's recommendation!) I'm sure a bigger scope would offer more - but I was seeing more than a hint. This would've been in July this year, and from a dark site in West Berks (I think we've messaged about it!)

Hellish expensive, that filter; it was a fair proportion of the scope itself. Really glad I got it, though - so good for wandering through Cygnus.

[quaoar]

It was only about a year ago that I saw the Veil Nebula for the first time. Myself and a couple of others were out late one night with our scopes when I noticed the Argo Navis indicating  the Veil was up, we had always supposed that we were too far South here in Perth Western Australia to get any sort of view of it. Anyway I hit the goto button on the Servocat and the scope slewed straight to it very low of course. I could view the Veil through the 28" standing on the ground, no ladder, we were all laughing so surprised that such an iconic object had escaped our view until that moment. It was was a very memorable occasion. 

[Paul73]

Agreed, the veil is one hell of a target. For some reason I haven't really gone into analysing the detail. Probably too busy enjoying the sweeping clouds of gas in the main brighter East and West segments. The triangle and the other bits & pieces are there but faint by comparison. I'm not expecting the bigger scope to reveal a whole new world of objects. But more to bring the currently "averted vision or hinted at" elements into the main direct view.

For me, one of the greatest pleasures in Astronomy is getting a plethora of galaxies in one FOV. I know that this will mean a trip down the £££££ big Nagler/Ethos route in the future. But that is a different (very well documented) thread.

Paul

[Paul73]

This would've been in July this year, and from a dark site in West Berks (I think we've messaged about it!).

Andy

I've yet to get the clear to the horizon night to head down there to bag M6&7 (subject of the PMing). It didn't occur to me that it was a particularly dark spot as well. I'll get on down there and see the difference now that the nights are drawing in.

Paul