Points of view

[bish]

I was talking to somebody the other day about global warming etc. The conversation went on to jets, rockets and then space. My friend said that she couldn't care less about what's up there. To paraphrase, it's been there for billions of years and hasn't bothered us so why look?

I'm not saying she's wrong to have this opinion at all, I just can't understand how anybody could not be  bothered if there is life elsewhere. For me, if evidence of any kind of life were 100% detected (other than the Earth!) then it would be nothing short of incredible. It's the one thing I would like to see answered in my life time.

[rory]

im sure there is life out there , no doubt about it . BUT weather we'll find it or prove it is another question.

 it would be THE biggest news ever.

[bish]

im sure there is life out there , no doubt about it . BUT weather we'll find it or prove it is another question.

 it would be THE biggest news ever.

I agree entirely with you. I am confident there must be some form of life but absolute proof may not happen in my life time. The best shot has to be somewhere like Europa I would think. Yes, for me too it would be the biggest news ever.

[JamesF]

To be honest, my opinion is that it is quite narrow-minded to have such an opinion.

The spin-offs of the space programme have been manyfold and some are things that are useful to lots of people, today, in all sorts of ways.  Often the spin-offs are things that people wouldn't have set out to create from scratch, but they've come about because someone realised the technology could be used a different way.  Or they might have set out to create them but it would have taken much longer to come up with a finished product.  And often they're everyday things that most people have no idea originated with a requirement for space exploration.  Finding life might change our view of the cosmos, but it is not the be-all and end-all of space exploration.

And one day, if we managed to hold it together long enough, I'm certain that we're going to need to go out there for resources and perhaps even space to live.  But if we wait until we really need to then it'll already be far too late.

Such a viewpoint is in my view little removed from saying that we should only concern ourselves with the here and now.  That we don't is what separates us from the chimpanzees.

James

[Mr Spock]

Any reasonably intelligent person should take an interest in all their surroundings. It doesn't matter whether it's astronomy, physics, geology, meteorology etc., they all contain knowledge.

If we don't take an interest in these things and develop our knowledge and understanding, then why do we exist?

[philhas]

I agree with James, point out to your friend that millions of people have benefited by the research NASA did in improving water filtering technology and that when she sleeps on that nice memory foam pillow that was thanks to NASA so looking for life isn't completely worthless!

[bingevader]

You can argue both sides quite nicely, when really, you need to concentrate on both as Michael has said. However, If you wander around always looking up at the skies, or always looking down at your shoes, sooner or later you'll bump into a lamp post! 

The problem is that people don't bother to do either, which is probably why the world's such a mess. 

Cheers

[ronin]

Intolerent bunch aren't we.

Why should she care?

From the OP she never said anything about what space technology did or didn't do for us. She is right it will be up there for a good few billion years to come. So she knows that much which at times is more then I think some joining here do.

Not being interested is no crime, I know nothing about psychology, but I am more likely to meet a psychopath then an alien.

I have no interest in climbing Everest and at least that is on this planet.

Also have no interest in how local government works and that is much more relevant then whats up there.

[Treeden]

Such a viewpoint is in my view little removed from saying that we should only concern ourselves with the here and now.  That we don't is what separates us from the chimpanzees.

James

If we don't take an interest in these things and develop our knowledge and understanding, then why do we exist?

Those views and attitudes are important of course, but not necessarily for everyone.  It's important that 'we' as a species strive to advance our understanding of the world we live in, but not important for every member of that species to do so. 

We have to have balance.  Leaders need followers, followers need leaders.  Without balance there would be even more conflict than we already have.

It's very important to me, but I'm more than happy that some people don't care at all. 

[Tiny Small]

Also have no interest in how local government works and that is much more relevant then whats up there.

Only to humans. And humans that don't see the bigger picture at that. It may be more relevant to you, here and now, but it is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. We are nothing but the universe very briefly expressing its self and as such, the only worthy thing we can do whilst we are here, is to try and understand our origins and future (and by extension, that of everything else in the universe). To walk around and not ask 'why' is a waste of an intelligence.

[JamesF]

Intolerent bunch aren't we.

I have my moments

Why should she care?

I would say because she can only lead the life she has as a result of people doing the same sort of thing in the past. As a society we owe it to our descendants to push the boundaries so that they may benefit just as we benefit from those who have done so before us.  We don't know where those benefits will come from.

From the OP she never said anything about what space technology did or didn't do for us. She is right it will be up there for a good few billion years to come. So she knows that much which at times is more then I think some joining here do.

The quote was "why look?" If we're not going to look, we don't need to develop the technology and the beneficial spin-offs won't happen.

Not being interested is no crime, I know nothing about psychology, but I am more likely to meet a psychopath then an alien.

Not a crime, no. But being interested is the debt we owe our forebears that we pay forward so that our children and grandchildren and their grandchildren may benefit. We are where we are specifically because someone could be interested. I don't see that it's reasonable behaviour to reap the benefit without shouldering a similar responsibility for the future.

I can accept someone having interests elsewhere and accepting that "stuff goes on" without them being able to keep up-to-date with it all, but saying, effectively, "Why bother?  It's not important." is, IMNSHO, wrong, whether it be exploring space or mapping genomes or all sorts of other human endeavours.

I have no interest in climbing Everest and at least that is on this planet.

No-one said she had to go into space herself. That does not mean that climbing Everest and supporting those who try is worthless.

James

[JamesF]

Those views and attitudes are important of course, but not necessarily for everyone.  It's important that 'we' as a species strive to advance our understanding of the world we live in, but not important for every member of that species to do so. 

I absolutely agree, but there is a huge difference between not caring about the goals of those who do the striving, considering them irrelevant, and supporting them even if one is unable to see where it might lead.

James

[Twiggles]

Well, when you say its been there for billions of years and hasn't bothered us, thats not strictly true... I wouldn't want another big bloomin rock to come wiping out the planet just yet. If anything, the events of last year showed us that we should be keeping a closer eye on the skies IMO, after all we didn't even know about Chelyabinsk until it was too late, and were lucky that it had an airburst. Then there's the problems the sun could cause if it decided to throw something our way, I mean ignoring the loss of satelites, our dependancy on electrical power and the problems that the loss of the grid could cause are immense.

[JamesF]

Imagine if when people first started investigating electricity, which had absolutely no obvious benefit nor use at the time beyond amusing some aristocrats with daft parlour games, people had said "There's no real benefit, it will be there in thousands of years, why bother looking at it?" and so nobody ever did.

James

[bambuko]

It must be raining or else they would be out there observing instead of arguing here

[Treeden]

I absolutely agree, but there is a huge difference between not caring about the goals of those who do the striving, considering them irrelevant, and supporting them even if one is unable to see where it might lead.

James

I'm not sure we can safely make those deductions from what Bish wrote in his OP?  We don't know that she doesn't care or that she considers the work of others that do, irrelevant?

We're all different, we all have different values and different outlooks on life, and I'm ok with the fact that some don't care about the things I care about.   

I wonder if Bish's friend has any idea that an entire thread has been dedicated to her opinions and attitudes, on an astronomy forum?  She probably won't care about that either! 

[astro mick]

I think that to-day,we now have a lot more programmes about Space,and Astronomy,and there are genuinely  a lot of people who are interested,maybe not to the same extent as we are.I often get asked about the stars and distances,and it makes me really happy,when I can explain something to someone who really does want to know.

Yes I,ve come across people who could,nt careless about whats up there,and that,s fine.

The other day someone asked what the bright star was above our heads,and when I explained it was Jupiter,he could,nt believe he was seeing a planet.

So there you go.

Mick.

[JamesF]

I'm not sure we can safely make those deductions from what Bish wrote in his OP?  We don't know that she doesn't care or that she considers the work of others that do, irrelevant?

The quote given is: "it's been there for billions of years and hasn't bothered us so why look?"

Now it seems reasonable to believe that she's not talking about doing the looking herself.  The OP didn't say this was a reaction to suggesting she might look through a telescope, but to a wider discussion about rockets and space.  I assume the OP would have made it quite clear that she wasn't going to find ET by looking through a telescope had she been labouring under such a notion.  It therefore seems logical to me to assume she's saying "Why should the human race look?"

James

[Treeden]

Maybe so, maybe not James, but why worry about one person who holds that view? 

We here know the reasons why it is important to look, that is not in question.  I am not threatened by a contrary view and I don't worry about it. 

[JamesF]

I don't worry about it, but I do think it's wrong.

Well, no, actually, I do worry about it, or at least I think it's a matter for concern.  Because if enough people think that way then politically it will become difficult to do some of those important things and I think that's bad for us as a species.  I think there is a significant danger that many forms of human endeavour, scientific or otherwise, and particularly those that are expensive, will be cast aside because people who don't care to look in the first place see no value in them.

James

[Treeden]

Imagine if when people first started investigating electricity, which had absolutely no obvious benefit nor use at the time beyond amusing some aristocrats with daft parlour games, people had said "There's no real benefit, it will be there in thousands of years, why bother looking at it?" and so nobody ever did.

James

I missed this one James.  The  point is that we never get to the stage where "nobody ever did".

We disagree, we argue, we hold differing opinions about things.  If one person says "don't bother looking" then someone will look to spite them.  This 'we' is not an organised scientific body working and collaborating for the betterment of mankind.  It's the human race, it's individuals, it's the great unwashed.  Progress isn't always steady and methodical, often it's messy and inefficient.

'We' as a specises, will always look up.

[JamesF]

I missed this one James.  The  point is that we never get to the stage where "nobody ever did".

We disagree, we argue, we hold differing opinions about things.  If one person says "don't bother looking" then someone will look to spite them.  This 'we' is not an organised scientific body working and collaborating for the betterment of mankind.  It's the human race, it's individuals, it's the great unwashed.  Progress isn't always steady and methodical, often it's messy and inefficient.

'We' as a specises, will always look up.

True enough.  And part of the problem here is exactly that progress is messy and inefficient.  But these days the purse strings are often held by people who abhor the messy and inefficient, or who owe their position to people who aren't interested unless there's a clear and immediate (usually financial) benefit to them.  There may well always be people who look up, but the likes of thee and me aren't going to fund another moonshot from loose change and pocket fluff.

James

[LukeSkywatcher]

Primates by their very nature are curious animals. Us Humans are primates. Its in our DNA to explore,investigate,observe our surroundings. Not to do so would be going against our very being.

Life elsewhere in the universe? Statistically the chances are very good for it to be out there. Finding it is a whole different ballgame because we as a species are only looking for things we consider to be essential for life, because its all we know and have to go on. 

[Treeden]

... the purse strings are often held by people who abhor the messy and inefficient, or who owe their position to people who aren't interested unless there's a clear and immediate (usually financial) benefit to them...

James

Ain't that the truth!  Don't get me started on 'ladder climbers' though James, the mods won't appreciate having their quite Sunday evening interrupted to remind me of the CoC!

[Paul73]

Hmmm. To be fair, when it comes to improving humanity's lot, there are a load of things that come ahead of looking for life elsewhere and space travel. We can but hope that Bish's friend is concentrating on one of these many things.

There are a whole heap of theories about coping mechanisms. But I'll go with her being preoccupied with solving world peace, or something.

Luckily there are an awful lot of humans and we are an enquiring & argumentative bunch. Without someone asking "why bother" we may not bother to work out how important something actually is (and then do something about it).

Paul