Despondant ....

[MahlerMoonMan]

Hi folks, I'm a bit down in the dumps .... I've got an Orion SkyView Pro ED80 and while I'm confident that as far as ED80s are concerned it is a lovely wee scope, and I've up-graded my EPs recently too for hopefully superior viewing, I hope!! But I get depressed when I read the various monthly mags, The Sky at Night, Astronomy Now, etc, and realise how little my scope is .... So many of the recommended targets are only 'well seen' in apertures 150mm and bigger, or even 100mm often seems to be considered at the small end, and my wee 80mm seems even more limited then!! I know that my scope will show me plenty, I have seen some lovely views in it already when my time permits, but I can't help getting hung-up on what my small scope can't show me .... I don't know the technical limitations of my ED80 optics in terms of crater sizes on the moon, for instance, or planetary details, or double star separation .... I'm getting even more depressed now even typing all this!!! Should I even bother mentioning galaxies and planetary nebula?!! I know that living on the edge of a small town in north-east Scotland just south of Aberdeen will never help in the viewing of DSOs very well anyway, but my small choice of aperture certainly doesn't help!! I chose my ED80 for a number of reasons; cost, portability, good reviews etc, but I think that now having done more reading about the night sky, I feel like I now regret my choice of scope .... Should I be so negative? Or am I being unfairly critical of my ED80?

[DirkSteele]

In a word no. What you have is a good, small scope, which is very portable and capable of showing you more than you realise. I primarily observe from Central London (so my light pollution is far worse than yours), and every month join the Baker Street Irregular Astronomers in Regents Park for a stargazing event. While I normally take my 105mm APM apo, I have the opportunity to look through many scopes, some larger, but many smaller and it never ceases to amaze me what I can see with "only" 80mm. Under central London light pollution, even the ever present 12.5" Dob struggles with low surface brightness galaxies and nebulae. But open clusters take light pollution rather well, and many of brighter Messier objects are easily visible. So I guess I would say is I tend to find those estimates of "needing 150mm aperture" etc a little on the conservative side.

But here comes the good bit. Your 80mm is very, very portable. Last weekend I traveled to the Brecon Beacons for the Baker Street Astro Camp, where many of the usual people and scopes could be found. Under these mag 5.5 to 6 skies, I really did lose count of the number of galaxies we saw through a friends William Optics GT81, and another friend with a Megrez 72 was also ticking of galaxies as fast as I could count. So if you can travel to a darker site, you really should give it a go. Dark skies can transform even the smallest scope.

Now, these small apertures will never show the same level of detail in a DSO as as monster Dob, but you can see them, and there are other other DSOs where you will outperform. There is no way all of M45 will fit in the field of a large scope, but taking it all in a small scope is sight to behold. Want to see the North American nebula, or all of the Veil in Cygnus at once? Small scope only please. So the reality is a small scope really can do a lot very well. And if you ever decide to buy a larger scope as well, you will find the two compliment each other very well indeed.

So keep the faith!

(Edit: I should have added that I am currently considering an 80mm class telescope as sometimes even my smallest scope, the 105mm is too big to carry when on some trips).

[rowan46]

If you ever get into imaging you will be delighted you bought that scope. but you are right you don't get the views that blow you away. However you do get a scope that's easy to use and easy to carry and there's plenty to see even in a small scope. I too have an 80mm scope like yourself and getting it under darker skies makes a huge difference it should also give nice lunar shots if you stick it on the end of your dslr

[swamp thing]

You are being unfairly critical

Seriously though, where scopes like yours can really work well is the large DSO,s where a large image scale isn't required. Objects like the NA neb, the rosette, M31 etc are all shown very well indeed by small scopes with a large FOV.

It's true your scope won't work well on small objects as by the time it magnifies them enough they'll be too faint to see. Stick to the large DSO's and your scope will show them as well as any other.

Remember this works two ways, giant scopes struggle to see large objects. The North American neb, for example is easily missed in a 16" scope, as its bigger than several FOV, and unless you are lucky enough to find one of the more obvious parts, you may well end up "looking straight through it", and miss it altogether.

Admittedly you will need dark skies for this type of object as they're all about contrast.

I also find some of the open clusters are much nicer through smaller apertures. The double cluster looks nicer through smaller apertures for me.

Cruising the Milky Way around Sagittarius is fantastic with a small rich field scope too. I could spend weeks in M24, its utterly breathtaking. In fact cruising the Milky Way period is great fun with a small scope.

Don't get despondant, get out observing

Clear skies

[brantuk]

I wouldn't be disappointed if I were you - you've chosen a great scope. Small as it is it's capable of seeing a lot of dso's even from a light polluted area. Here's what to do to cheer yourself up - grab a copy of Turn Left at Orion and work your way carefully through the objects in it. It gives you loads of info about your first 100 dso's including how to find each one, and pictures and stetches of what they look like in a small scope. It's specifically aimed at 2"-3" apertures (80mm is 3.25") and was written using the views through a small scope from a backyard in New York.

The ED80's are also great little wide field imaging scopes if you ever get into astro photography. There is hope so don't be too hard on yourself - it's probably more about how you use it than it is about chosen aperture - we all learned this when we first started in astronomy. Hth

[umadog]

What everyone is saying is correct. Many people's astronomy journey begins with a small scope (mine began with a 63 mm) and then aperture fever takes over and you buy a larger one, and a yet larger one... Perhaps you sell the first little one (I did) to fund the larger ones. But then, a few years down the line, you buy a small one again! And here's thing: during this cycle of increasing aperture you realise that, whilst aperture matters a lot, it doesn't matter as much as you thought it would when you had your first 3" telescope.

A 20" does provide more detail than, say, an 8"; but the 8" shows a surprisingly large chunk of the detail that is visible in the monster scope. I remember a star party a couple of years ago where a guy set up next me with a beautiful 3" or 4" TV refractor and Ethos eyepieces. He made a lot of the same complaints you did, as I had my 18" set up next to him. He was so fixated by the views through the larger scope being brighter that he didn't stop to see what extra goodies his nice wide fields provided. I think I enjoyed looking through his scope more than he did!

So the moral of the story is not to worry about your scope. Take it somewhere dark and it will show you a lot. Over time you might buy a larger one, but the smaller will always provide views that the larger doesn't. Also, for what it's worth, O'Meara's classic observing guides are all put together with a small TV refractor.

[Nibor]

MahlerMoonMan,

I have the Orion ED80 - although not the "Pro" (I am not sure what the difference is) - and I find it an excellent all round scope for my light polluted skies.

I did some research before buying mine secondhand and found the attached review from "Cloudy Nights" - have a look and see if it is the same scope as yours. - If it is it should help allay some of your concerns.

Mine is usually mounted on my Skywatcher AZ GOTO along with a MR red dot finder and I get a great deal of pleasure from the set up.

ED80 Review Detailed.pdf

[Qualia]

I honestly can't add to the kind and thoughtful posts set out above, so will try to take another approach. I'm not sure if this will help but here's a little general observing plan to gear up for with the warm summer months ahead. I feel it will help direct your own observations and studies and hopefully highlight what your little beauty may be capable of. These targets might also be attempted by urban observers with LP messing up the skies.

The listings include Messier objects, NGC wonders, and Double Star gems which I think are worth taking a shot at even if the possibility of success isn't always going to be 100%.

Unless directed otherwise the listing will be set out as follows:

• Target Name: Constellation; Type; Level of Subjective Difficulty 1 (relatively easy) to 4 (very difficult).
  

A Warm Month Summer Plan

The Messier List

M 13: Hercules Globular Cluster 1

M 92: Hercules Globular Cluster 2 - 3

M 29: Cygnus Open Cluster 2

M 39: Cygnus Open Cluster 3 - 4

M 5: Serpens Globular Cluster 2

M 16: Serpens Open Cluster 1

M 10: Ophiuchus Globular Cluster 2

M 12: Ophiuchus Globular Cluster 2

M 14: Ophiuchus Globular Clustrer 3

M 19: Ophiuchus Globular Cluster 2

M 62: Ophiuchus Globular Cluster 2 - 3

M 107: Ophiuchus Globular Cluster 2 - 3

M 57: Lyra Planetary Nebula 1

M 56: Lyra Globular Cluster 3 - 4

M 27: Vulpecula Planetary Nebula 2 - 3

M 71: Sagitta Globular Cluster 4

M 8: Sagittarius Galactic Nebula 1

M 17: Sagittarius Galactic Nebula 1

M 20: Sagittarius Galactic Nebula 3

M 21: Sagittarius Open Cluster 3

M 23: Sagittarius Open Cluster 2 - 3

M 22: Sagittarius Globular Cluster 3 - 4

M 25: Sagittarius Open Cluster 2 - 3

M 28: Sagittarius Globular Cluster 3 - 4

M 54: Sagittarius Globular Cluster 4

M 55: Sagittarius Globular Cluster 3 - 4

M 11: Scutum Open Cluster 1

M 4: Scorpius Globular Cluster 2

M 80: Scorpius Globular Cluster 3

M 6: Scorpius Open Cluster 1 - 2

M 7: Scorpius Open Cluster 1 - 2

A Few New General Catalogue (NGC) Wonders

NGC 6235: Orphiuchus Globular Cluster 4

NGC 6572: Orphiuchus Planetary Nebula 2 - 3

NGC 6910: Cygnus Open Cluster 2

NGC 6866: Cygnus Open Cluster 3 - 4

NGC 6819 Cygnus Open Cluster 2 - 3

NGC 6826 Cygnus Planetary Nebula 1 - 2

NGC 6834 Cygnus Open Cluster 3 - 4

NGC 6830 Vulpecula Open Cluster 3 - 4

NGC 6823 Vulpecula Open Cluster 2 - 3

NGC 6302 Scorpius Planetary Nebular 1 - 2

NGC 6543 Draco Planetary Nebular 3 - 4

NGC 6503 Draco Galaxy 4

Double Stars: The Little Gems

The listing information will be as follows:

• Target Name: Constellation; Folk Name
  

Kappa Herculis (k Her) - - - - - Hercules - - Marfik, Marfak, Marsic (The Elbow)

Alpha Herculis (a Her) - - - - - Hercules - - Rasalgethi (Head of the Kneeler)

Alpha Scorpii (a Sco) - - - - - Scorpius - - - Antares (The Anti-Mars)

Beta Scorpii (b Sco) - - - - - Scorpius - - - Acrab

Beta Cygni (b Cyg) - - - - - Cygnus - - - - - Albireo (The Hen's Beak)

61 Cygni - - - - - - - - - - - - -Cygnus - - - - - Bessel's Star

Epsilon Lyrae (ε Lyr) - - - - -Lyra - - - - - The Double Double

Zeta Ursae Majoris (ζ UMa) - - - - - Ursa Major - - - - Mizor & Alcor

Alpha Ursae Minoris (a UMi) - - - - - Ursa Major - - - - - Polaris, (The Pole Star)

Alpha Canis Venaticorum (a CVn) - - - - - Canes Venatici - - - - - - Cor Caroli

Epsilon Boötis (ε Boo) - - - - - Bootes - - - - - Izar & Pulcherrima (The Veil & The Loveliest)

Mu Boötis (μ Boo) - - - - - - - - Bootes - - - - -Alkalurops

Gamma Delphini (γ Del) - - - - - Delphinus - - - - - Job's Coffin

Obviously this list is not exhaustive, but I hope this helps in some manner of ways.

After you've worked through something like this, you'll really appreciate what you like looking at and the limits and potential of your own scope. After that you'll be able to make a more informed decision of where you want to go (an 8" or 10" or more ).

Best of luck and hope to hear about your successes and failures

[Nibor]

Qualia,

Thanks for sharing the list!! - Some targets for me to check out as well !!

[steppenwolf]

I don't think you should be disappointed with this instrument at all. My main observing telescope is a William Optics Megrez 72 (72mm aperture)!! Now, it is true that I have access to larger instruments BUT this little scope (smaller than yours) is the one I use the most and I've seen some wonderful sights through it. Quick to set up, comfortably matches my little GoTo AZ mount and gives great views with my 5, 8, 17 and 24mm Hyperion EPs.

If we are going to be honest and categorise instruments by size then I'd say 60mm to 100mm is small, 110mm to 150mm is medium and above that is large but this is just a rough guide and when I write the S @ N Deep Sky Tour I try to cover a range of instrument views where possible.

Small telescope + clear night = plenty to see and enjoy IMHO.

[MahlerMoonMan]

Many thanks to you all for your thoughts, advice, positive outlook and encouragement, and particularly to Qualia for providing a great list for working through .... I am very much more positive about what I may be able to see through my ED80, thank you. I am also wondering though, would a light pollution filter be of much use on an ED80?

[umadog]

Ooh, I just realised I said some slightly misleading things about the larger scopes and it one reason why the smaller scope works better than you might think. The misleading thing is that the bigger aperture doesn't make the image brighter. In fact, no telescope makes the image brighter. A telescope only magnifies. Brightness is just a function of the exit pupil diameter, and decreases at higher powers as exit pupil diameter decreases. The difference is that for any given magnification, the exit pupil in the larger scope is bigger and so the view is brighter. So the advantage of a larger scope is that you maintain reasonable brightness even at high powers. Conversely, and this is important, the low power views in a smaller scope are comparably bright to the large scope at higher powers. As a consequence, you can have some quite lively images of the larger DSOs in a small scope. M31 is wonderful in a 3" refractor, for instance.

[umadog]

I am also wondering though, would a light pollution filter be of much use on an ED80?

Yes, a little. Really the best all-round filter is a UHC filter. I believe convention says that this filter cuts out too much light to be useful in an 80 mm. However, the rule of thumb with these filters is simply that the maximum useful power goes down to about 8x per inch when you filter the scope. So you could get a UHC filter, but you'll not be able to use it much beyond 30 x. That means it'll be great on the N. America Nebula, the Veil complex, you might just make out the Crescent. It'll also help with the larger nebulae in Sagittarius. It'll be useless for you on planetary nebulae, which are all too small (with the possible exception of M27 and maybe even the Helix [although that's low in the sky and possibly a tough target from the UK]). Honestly, though, filtered views of the N. America from dark skies might justify the purchase by themselves.

[rowan46]

Many thanks to you all for your thoughts, advice, positive outlook and encouragement, and particularly to Qualia for providing a great list for working through .... I am very much more positive about what I may be able to see through my ED80, thank you. I am also wondering though, would a light pollution filter be of much use on an ED80?

Probably not lp filters tend to work better on larger scopes. because there is some light drop off with filters larger scopes can cope with it better I'm sure there is a more technical explanation

[umadog]

Rowan, here is the slightly more technical explanation: http://www.lumicon.com/store/pg/15-LUMICON-Nebula-Filters.aspx It lists the optimum exit pupils for each filter type. So anyone can figure out what power ranges the filter will work over and therefore whether it's worth the purchase.

[andrew63]

Yes as above - you have a lovely telescope, and enough to see to last a lifetime...

andrew

[rowan46]

Rowan, here is the slightly more technical explanation: http://www.lumicon.c...la-Filters.aspx It lists the optimum exit pupils for each filter type. So anyone can figure out what power ranges the filter will work over and therefore whether it's worth the purchase.

I'm too idle and stupid to read and understand that does that mean yes or no

[Stu]

MahlerMoonMan, I can only echo the thoughts above, don't regret the scope you have, but enjoy it for what it does best ie beautiful widefield views under the dark skies it is easy to take to.

If you fancy, read my post in the observing discussion on a session I had with my 76mm recently. There is plenty to see, and in lots of ways starting with a small scope teaches you to observe better ie to take your time seeing the detail, to get properly dark adapted and to use averted vision.

I have three main scopes

76mm refractor

106mm refractor

8" mak

I get far more observing done, and under better skies with the first two just because of their convenience to take to dark sites and ease of setup.

Enjoy your scope!

Stu

[skywatcher58gb]

Hi MahlerMoonMan, I have the Skywatcher ED80 and I love the clarity it gives on the planets. They may not be as large to look at as my 8" SCT but I much prefer the quality and crispness of image.

Dave

[bingevader]

Sorry, nothing more to add that hasn't already been said, just wanted to add my support and encouragement!

As mentioned above, Turn Left At Orion was written with 'scopes like yours in mind.

Don't be despondent!

Just enjoy it.

Cheers

[umadog]

I'm too idle and stupid to read and understand that does that mean yes or no

As I read it, it means yes but on the largest emission nebulae only.

[stevetynant]

what a great, imformative and positive thread this is- pretty much sums up the ethos of SGL to me.

[Qualia]

Ay, there really are a load of decent folk here and I'm sure everyone will appreciate your kind words, Steve. Thank you. In a way, it's a shame most of us will never meet.

[rowan46]

As I read it, it means yes but on the largest emission nebulae only.

Cheers for that umadog I thought that was what it was saying but it was getting late and I really am not very bright

[Grotemobile]

These are my main scopes.One is 11",

the other is 4".The small one perfoms

a lot better than the 11" sometimes,

because of the conditions.The 11"

only comes into its own, on really good

nights.I thought like you,but sometimes,

it is not the case,of bigger is better.

Steve.