The future of visual astronomy

[PeterStudz]

5 minutes ago, John said:

That is quite possibly correct. I hope there will remain some distinction though, especially when things are reported. I've very recently read a report (not on SGL) which mentioned "seeing" and "observing" a number of the brighter Cephid Variables within the galaxy M 31. That caused a little confusion because it was my understanding that such targets were beyond most amateur telescopes in terms of visual observing, the brightest bring around magnitude 17 I think. It turned out that the reporter in this case had been referring to seeing these variables on long exposure images they had taken with their scopes. 

When I started out (well, I still find it very useful) I found the Observation Reports in this forum really useful for what I could try and see and do. And writing these reports is a skill - some are just excellent! Something I should do more of. I think It’s easier to stick up a picture with a load of figures and details about the capture than write a detailed report. 

Which reminds me of something that I’ve said before. Observational astronomy isn’t just about what you see at the eyepiece. For me It’s also being outdoors, drinking chocolate & toasting marshmallows (if my daughter is around), listening to foxes jump our fence, watching the sun rise and dawn chorus…

[Stephenstargazer]

48 minutes ago, HollyHound said:

vinyl records... something that is done, partly for nostalgia

No mate, it's because I have a few hundred black round things and they still sound great 😁

Back to topic, yes there are already less visual astronomers and more AP. The good news is nothing will ever stop you looking through an old telescope. It does not need fossil fuel and silicon chips,  and is practically obsolescent proof. Light pollution has made it harder already and it does not 'share' as easily as images. But lets be honest, who still 'shares' all those photos of holidays past? People go to the same places and can enjoy the view for themselves

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Stephenstargazer

[Richard N]

9 minutes ago, Stephenstargazer said:

Back to topic, yes there are already less visual astronomers and more AP. 

People often say this but I’m not sure how it’s measured. 

[DirkSteele]

5 minutes ago, Richard N said:

People often say this but I’m not sure how it’s measured. 

I expect there have been reports on volume / value of sales of equipment that are targeted to AP vs items that would be visual use and the former outweighs the latter. Though I have never seen any hard evidence presented so it could be one of those “facts” that has become accepted without any data to back it up. Has @FLO ever talked about the volume of sales for visual vs astrophotography?

[Mr Spock]

I will always be visual and have little interest in changing. There is room for everyone of course and whatever helps you enjoy the hobby is a good thing.

But it is true - the future isn't what it used to be... 

[JeremyS]

Another visual thread take over by digital 🤣

[Paz]

I think how people enjoy hobbies is a very personal thing by which I mean what you enjoy matters more than how many other people enjoy it.

I enjoy visual observing but I hardly know anyone else who does.

Things will constantly move on, and soon enough the activities that we enjoy will be superceeded and forgotten, but I would guess/hope that people will have even more choices available to them in the future, and that for every thing that might get worse (e.g. weather) something else will come up that is better (e.g. space tourism).

[Richard]

Despite saying for many years that I’d always ‘want to see the photons with my own eyes’, i.e. remain visual, experience with modern filters - an l-Enhance initially - and a DSLR a couple of years ago has tempted me into imaging. It’s so easy to take reasonable images. With almost universal LP, to some extent, in the UK it’s easy to see why people have shifted largely to imaging. As technology continues to provide ever-better imaging kit, it’s hard to see this changing.

My imaging tends to be a simple affair, without Pixinsight etc, nothing more than simple stacking and maybe a fiddle with contrast. I like the idea of the images being representative of what I might actually see, with a large enough scope and dark skies.

I am still predominantly a visual observer, though, and can’t see that changing, since, for me, nothing beats the thrill of sitting under the stars and just looking up, as often as not with a pair of Vixen 2.1x42s or a 4-5” refractor.

As the previous post says, though, each to their own! It’s supposed to be enjoyable, rather than proscriptive.

[Elp]

I image predominantly because I literally can't see anything DSO from where I am. With a camera, usually even with a short 30-120s exposure, the wonders start to appear. LP is so bad I can't even do RGB very well. But it doesn't stop me from looking up, the best memories as in any experience in life is usually sensory, in this case visual.

[tomato]

The replies, I think, pretty much reflect the state of play, those who have grown up with visual will no doubt stay with it, but it is the way future generations will embrace the hobby that prompted the original post. It is an interesting observation that a couple of posters have said they would stop observing if LP became too bad, rather than move to EAA.

Why don’t more imagers do EAA? My own take on this is I watch the individual subs come in and a quick calibration and stack would give me a more enhanced view than a single frame but then I’m trying to capture an image based on several hours of data rather than minutes, and the rig will stay on the same object all night, so EAA would sort of get in the way of this objective. Of course, I could always set up a separate EAA rig to use while the imaging is on going. Now there’s a thought…

[Mr Spock]

The issue with non-visual is you aren't looking at the real thing only a representation. It's like looking at a landscape photo instead of walking through a meadow.

[Saganite]

 For me , the challenge to see the most that I can of all manner of object with a fine telescope in real time is what burns inside ....🙂

Edited August 19, 2023 by Saganite

[Ratlet]

I don't think visual will die or go away.  Imaging has become more accessible but is still expensive and has a fairly steep learning curve.  As to why more imagers don't do eaa I think it's because most imagers want the Hubble like image of DSO.  Eaa gives a nice image, but not with the extensive optimisation that comes with imaging.

With technology like Starsense it is making visual more accessible to the masses as you don't need to learn the sky, just do a simple calibration and away you go.

Add to this the capability of forums like this to open up the hobby and I think things will be in safe hands.  I certainly wouldn't have started if I didn't have access to the wealth of information here.

Light pollution will be the big risk to visual I think, certainly in areas where the weather in unpredictable making travelling to a dark site more of a risk.

 

[Ratlet]

1 minute ago, Saganite said:

Sir Patrick Moore always said that the success of Sky at Night was the subject and not him, but I have always disagreed because for me it WAS always about him, him and his delivery of the subject to me, and I feel the same way about telescopes, refractors to be precise, and the way they deliver the glories of the night sky to my eye.  For me , the challenge to see the most that I can of all manner of object with a fine telescope in real time is what burns inside ....🙂

I don't want to veer of topic, but you've just reminded me of something that I think visual needs.  And it's the old school Sky at Night episodes where Patrick talks to amatuer observer's.  They are the absolute bee's knees.

Patrick Moore didn't interview them, he told a story with them.  He asked questions which would be useful and informative and the interviewee would know the answer too.  Maybe I've only watched the wrong newer episodes, but it feels like Sky at night is trying to be a mini Horizon documentary with a short bit on what you can see.

The closest thing I've found to those classic episodes and getting me, as an amatuer fired up, is Refreshing Views on YouTube and Actual Astronomy Podcast.  Mark Radice interviews people about their scopes and setups and really captures the vibe and enthusiasm in a similar way to Patrick.  Actual Astronomy's talking heads format also gets the vibe right, especially with some of their interviews with guests where they ask just the right questions to get answers that are informative for the newbie and interesting to the (somewhat) experienced observer.

 

[John]

This film dates from 2009 but much of it chimes with me. It also features a few of folks from Bristol Astronomical Society including the very much missed Eddie Carpenter:

 

[RobertI]

Well I’m going to be positive here and say the future of visual astronomy is looking very bright. Technology like Starsense is making visual astronomy easier and more attractive, solar scopes are adding a new dimension to the visual hobby, there is a huge array of good quality equipment available, and in my opinion, imaging can never beat the experience of seeing the moon, Saturn, Jupiter and the brighter clusters and colourful doubles with your own eyes. And for those few that are smitten by the visual bug, it becomes a way of life.

Personally I think all this evolving new EAA type tech is fantastic, be it phone apps or Seestar/Dwarf/Evscope type products. I love my homebrew black and white EAA setup, it shows me the myriad springtime galaxies that are a barely perceptible smudges through my C8 - that said I get little time to set it up, but it’s nice to know I have it!

[RobertI]

24 minutes ago, John said:

This film dates from 2009 but much of it chimes with me. It also features a few of folks from Bristol Astronomical Society including the very much missed Eddie Carpenter:

 

I shall watch this John, looks fascinating. I didn’t realise Terry Pratchett was a keen astronomer. 

[PeterC65]

I think the new smart telescopes will make astronomy more accessible, especially as they fall in price. Seeing images from Hubble and JWST, and those posted by the AP crowd, encourages people to take a look for themselves I think, and my feeling is that there is more talk about the night skies in the mainstream media.

This is all good news as it promotes an interest in what lies beyond our own shores and that engenders a better sense of context. I think a lack of understanding of the wider context is what lies behind many of humanities problems (failing to understand consequences for example).

A minority of those drawn in to astronomy by smart scopes and impressive images will want to try visual I think, to see the photons for themselves, and so if more people are drawn in to the hobby it seems likely that there will always been a demand for the visual experience.

 

[Richard N]

I am not sure that astronomers are either visual or astrophotographers. There is a lot of overlap. I would describe myself as a visual astronomer but I sometimes take photos using my mobile phone at the eyepiece. Pretty much all of the astrophotographers that I know will also observe using an eyepiece sometimes. The thing about photography is that there is potentially a flashy product to show and endless discussion about how to achieve it. Thus astrophotography dominates forum bandwidth.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Richard N

[Jules Tohpipi]

2 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

The issue with non-visual is you aren't looking at the real thing only a representation. It's like looking at a landscape photo instead of walking through a meadow.

 

 

🤣

[Saganite]

1 hour ago, RobertI said:

Well I’m going to be positive here and say the future of visual astronomy is looking very bright.

.....   That's what I am afraid of Rob....

[Ratlet]

2 hours ago, RobertI said:

I shall watch this John, looks fascinating. I didn’t realise Terry Pratchett was a keen astronomer. 

I just watched it.  It's fabulous.

[Paul M]

I rarely use eyepieces now, for a few reasons not entirely related to having the imaging bug. Eyesight showing its age. Bad back and stiff neck make sitting at an eyepiece a chore quite often...

The Douglas Adams quote, above, reminds me of something I've mentioned a few times before; that some things should be experienced and not just recorded. A case in point being the two total solar eclipses I've had the privilege of experiencing. 

It is a multisensory experience that no image or video will ever capture. The change in the quality of the light, long before totality. The gradual drop in temperature. The rushing of the umbral shadow over the horizon. The silence of totality. And the visual appearance of the corona, like nothing else you will ever experience. 

My second eclipse was the 2006 total eclipse, who's central track we intercepted near the resort of Side in Turkey. Our hotel was the base for many eclipse chasers and when we wandered down to the beach (in our speedos) before totality we saw a large group on a Sky & Telescope eclipse tour. Tons of gear set up and they in their overcoats and hats.

Sure they saw an eclipse but how much did they miss?

I think that if you come from a position of looking up and wondering about the night sky then you'll likely pass through a period of visual telescope use. I guess that might be the case for a long while yet. Having a dark site helps a lot but the planets offer so much to visual observers that they alone are worth retaining a visual set up., as I do at our dark(er) sky get-a-away in Cumbria.

[Nik271]

On a positive note for visual astronomy, remember that unlike other type of pollution light pollution clears up quickly, it disappears the instant when the lights are off. It is by no means certain that in the future people will insist on keeping the lights on when not needed.  

[paulastro]

22 hours ago, LukeSkywatcher said:

Honestly, with the way global weather patterns are going...I personally think visual astronomy and Astro Photography are in the same boat. 

I honestly haven't seen a star in about 3 months.

 

You should get out more Luke

🙂.