Observing from the roof of a concrete building?

[jjohnson3803]

Unusual, but a small, solid concrete building in a dark sky area has come onto the market.  It has concrete walls with a flat concrete roof.  I'm wondering if it would be feasible to observe from the roof or if rising heat currents and such would cause too many potential problems.  Could it be worse than observing from a concrete patio or the top of a parking structure?  Thoughts?  Thanks!

 

[Sunshine]

Hello, I would think that rising heat would cause a problem, when observing I can see how the image deteriorates as I am aimed over nearby rooftops.  Putting yourself in the middle of that rising warm air pocket may be a problem, especially concrete which absorbs heat very well and radiates it out throughout the night.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Sunshine

[scotty38]

Possibly so but as he said how is it (much) worse than being set up on your patio/driveway or whatever anyway?

[Sunshine]

2 hours ago, scotty38 said:

Possibly so but as he said how is it (much) worse than being set up on your patio/driveway or whatever anyway?

Touchè

Edited May 18, 2021 by Sunshine

[scotty38]

5 hours ago, Sunshine said:

Touchè

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be argumentative, it was a genuine question as I really couldn't see how much difference it would make.

[AstroMuni]

10 hours ago, jjohnson3803 said:

Unusual, but a small, solid concrete building in a dark sky area has come onto the market.  It has concrete walls with a flat concrete roof.  I'm wondering if it would be feasible to observe from the roof or if rising heat currents and such would cause too many potential problems.  Could it be worse than observing from a concrete patio or the top of a parking structure?  Thoughts?  Thanks!

Which part of the world are you in? Depending on the temperature difference between day and night time, the rising heat currents would be more or less. You maybe able to cover the concrete during the day with some reflecting material to reduce the absorption. And if you live in a really hot country you could even hose down the concrete at the end of the day !

Edited May 18, 2021 by AstroMuni

[Sunshine]

7 hours ago, Sunshine said:

Touchè

Oh no, you weren’t being argumentative in the least bit, you brought up a great point which I hadn’t thought of, a good point it is.

[Peter Drew]

I think the potential outweighs the possible problems.  Heat currents can be addressed.     🙂

[Tiny Clanger]

I think there are no easy answers here, only conditional ones, all that can be offered is speculation. So here's mine !

The thermal mass of, say, an above ground,  low height but relatively large area roof, thick walled concrete ammunition storage bunker would be worse from this point of view than a small roof surface area,  thinner walled building with door/window apertures open to allow air circulation. But then there's the question of thermal conductivity of the material, would the heat energy be lost quickly and equilibrium soon restored , or would rising currents persist for many hours ? I'd think a competent architect or building engineer would be able to do  a survey  and make a report ...  for a price. Insulation and passive heating for eco homes is a big thing at the moment.

Then there are local environmental factors which come into play  , such as sunshine received, wind exposure (a breeze will help disperse the hot air)   altitude, shelter, aspect , vegetation and probably many other things ....

The upshot of which is that the only practical way I can see to find out with any accuracy is to try it out, actually go and observe from there over a few nights. Predicting how much of an effect the structure will have with so many variables is like trying to predict the UK weather ,hopeless without specialist knowledge, precise measurements, and a supercomputer. And even with all that, microclimates still defeat the broad predictions. 

[jjohnson3803]

The building is in central rural Illinois, surrounded by corn and soybean fields.  It can get up to 90F or a bit higher occasionally in summer and down to -10F (rarely) in winter.  No noticeable vegetation aside from some low brush here and there.  It apparently was a small military radio installation so while it has a couple of windows, the walls are relatively thick.  I don't think it was built to be bomb proof, but can probably withstand a lot more than an ordinary building could.

It's intriguing because it's not that far of a drive (far enough to stay overnight though), has electric service onsite,  and I'd think it could be quite secure because of location and construction.   Any kind of remote control would be difficult if even possible - internet and mobile service in that area is not the best.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by jjohnson3803

[scotty38]

I have no evidence one way or the other so bear that in mind but as was mentioned above the potential probably outweighs any (possible) downside. Sounds great to me so if it's financially viable I'd give it a shot. Do you get any land that you could observe from or is it literally the roof of the building and that's it?

[Tiny Clanger]

25 minutes ago, jjohnson3803 said:

The building is in central rural Illinois, surrounded by corn and soybean fields.  It can get up to 90F or a bit higher occasionally in summer and down to -10F (rarely) in winter.  No noticeable vegetation aside from some low brush here and there.  It apparently was a small military radio installation so while it has a couple of windows, the walls are relatively thick.  I don't think it was built to be bomb proof, but can probably withstand a lot more than an ordinary building could.

It's intriguing because it's not that far of a drive (far enough to stay overnight though), has electric service onsite,  and I'd think it could be quite secure because of location and construction.   Any kind of remote control would be difficult if even possible - internet and mobile service in that area is not the best.

 

 

Maybe the purpose of it was something like the network of ROC posts

 http://www.roc-heritage.co.uk/underground-posts.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Observer_Corps_Monitoring_Post

which covered this country during the Cold War . Most of the  ROC posts are small underground bunkers though, but I know of a couple near me which have small above ground buildings for aircraft spotting  . Fascinating bit of history, and dark and dismal places to climb down into, I've been inside one in Nottinghamshire in a farmer's field where he allows access , but many ROC posts have locked hatches, or have flooded, or been filled in with rubble now the farmers have reclaimed the land .

Anyone in Britain can check out their county's Cold War structures here https://www.subbrit.org.uk/locations/ , I got interested in what they were when coming across strange above ground vents and things when out on walks in the countryside. A Fascinating bit of history .

Probably no help at all the the OP though, sorry  !

Heather

[AstroMuni]

1 hour ago, jjohnson3803 said:

It can get up to 90F or a bit higher occasionally in summer and down to -10F (rarely) in winter. 

I think its worth a punt provided you can lay some kind of non-absorbing material on the roof to minimise heat eddies. In winter you could comfortably sit downstairs and remotely control your scope thro cable or a hotspot between PC and scope 🙂 You could also do what I do i.e. sit in the comfort of my house while the scope is outside and connected via ethernet cable and running off a Raspberry Pi.

[Tiny Clanger]

2 hours ago, jjohnson3803 said:

The building is in central rural Illinois, surrounded by corn and soybean fields.  It can get up to 90F or a bit higher occasionally in summer and down to -10F (rarely) in winter.  No noticeable vegetation aside from some low brush here and there.

 

A further random thought ... Such an open area ... what sort of wind speeds does it get ? It sounds like a flat featureless arable landscape , which would give you clear views all around, no trees ,no other buildings, just a sea of crops ... would you actually need to be on the roof ?

[saac]

I will go against the flow here !  I think the rising air current problem is often overplayed and misunderstood  Consider that you will have the same from the surrounding ground anyway !   Concrete, brick built observatories are used the world over.  Roof top obsy tend to suffer from thermal air currents if the building/space below is an occupied dwelling and is heated. From the OP's description this does not appear to be the case.   To the OP, is there a reason you would want to specifically observe from the roof itself - could you construct a hardstanding next to it and use the building for secure storage. Perhaps you are looking to use the roof for height clearance . 

 

Jim 

Edited May 18, 2021 by saac

[Astro Noodles]

4 hours ago, jjohnson3803 said:

The building is in central rural Illinois, surrounded by corn and soybean fields.  It can get up to 90F or a bit higher occasionally in summer and down to -10F (rarely) in winter.  No noticeable vegetation aside from some low brush here and there.  It apparently was a small military radio installation so while it has a couple of windows, the walls are relatively thick.  I don't think it was built to be bomb proof, but can probably withstand a lot more than an ordinary building could.

It's intriguing because it's not that far of a drive (far enough to stay overnight though), has electric service onsite,  and I'd think it could be quite secure because of location and construction.   Any kind of remote control would be difficult if even possible - internet and mobile service in that area is not the best.

 

 

Wow, your very own bunker/observatory. I'm pretty sure that the pros outweigh the cons on this one. Is it secure? What is the area of the roof?

Edited May 18, 2021 by Astro Noodles

[Peter Drew]

Get it before someone else does, now that it's an open secret!      🙂

[Stu]

Just paint it white to reflect the heat! Sounds like an opportunity not to be missed, providing it’s affordable and can be reached fairly easily.

I bet plenty of people are now googling weird phrases to try to find it! 🤣

[jjohnson3803]

Thanks for the replies.  There is some land that comes with it, but I'm not sure about the topography so the roof might give slightly better horizons.  The odds of somebody coming by are low, I think, but I don't like leaving gear sitting out so that's also why I was wondering about the roof. 

Wind isn't an ongoing problem, but planting and harvest time can raise large dust clouds.  As far as I know, it's completely above ground.

Definitely food for thought...

For whatever reason, I like the design of old (?) Middle Eastern houses - a masonry house with steps up to a walled rooftop garden.  Or observatory.  😁

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by jjohnson3803

[Astro Noodles]

8 minutes ago, jjohnson3803 said:

Thanks for the replies.  There is some land that comes with it, but I'm not sure about the topography so the roof might give slightly better horizons.  The odds of somebody coming by are low, I think, but I don't like leaving gear sitting out so that's also why I was wondering about the roof. 

Wind isn't an ongoing problem, but planting and harvest time can raise large dust clouds.  As far as I know, it's completely above ground.

Definitely food for thought...

For whatever reason, I like the design of old (?) Middle Eastern houses - a masonry house with steps up to a walled rooftop garden.  Or observatory.  😁

 

Have you got any pictures of it?

[jjohnson3803]

11 minutes ago, Astro Noodles said:

Have you got any pictures of it?

 

[Astro Noodles]

1 minute ago, jjohnson3803 said:

 

Woah! Just think of the amount of sky you will see from that roof.

If you can haul a telescope up there, it looks like there is room for a couple of mates too, with some beer, and even a BBQ. 😁

What's it like inside? could you sleep in there?

[7170]

3 hours ago, saac said:

Concrete, brick built observatories are used the world over.

And they often have a nice big asphalt carpark just next to them too. 😀 Plus some large ancillary buildings connected too....

[Swoop1]

I was also going to suggest painting the building, or at least the roof white to reflect a lot of the light and reduce absorbtion.

That building looks like it has a lot of potential. If you have the means, go for it!

[saac]

2 hours ago, jjohnson3803 said:

 

 As far as I know, it's completely above ground.

 

 

Oohhhhh, I used to work in places like that - small cottage footprint on the outside - once you get inside it's an elevator ride down 12 flights !!!   The carpark at the surface to accommodate 300 cars was always the giveaway.  Buy it,  buy it now, and never think twice about the zombie apocalypse again  

Jim