Atik 314L+ HELP!!

[JemC]

Hi all 

I'm looking for some help if possible please, at my wits end     starting to wish i had never bought it ☹️

I have had the Atik 314L+ for about a month now and have been unsuccessful in getting anywhere with it, I knew it was going to be a little different than a DSLR but wasn't expecting it to be this difficult and i also know that it is more than likely user error (me) that is the problem,

My intention was to use this camera with my iOptron RC6 on some galaxies but try as i may i have not as yet been able to achieve focus  (so much harder without Live View ) 
If there is anyone on here who has used this camera/scope set up that could point me in the right direction in how they achieved focus i would really appreciate it,  

I  have also tried all different kinds of adapters/spacers, racked the focuser in and out all the way ??

Some one please tell me it's a simple fix

ta very much

[ebdons]

Hi, not used this cam before but i have used the earlier atik 16m  but what software are you using as i never used the atik programme just stark labs and make sure you set the exp to say 1 sec and maybe even do some daylight exp of 0.01 sec to test your focus, or do the pinhole trick in daylight. it cam either works or nothing.ton

[JemC]

5 hours ago, ebdons said:

do the pinhole trick in daylight. it cam either works or nothing.ton

Not sure what the pinhole trick is ? Please enlighten me 😁

I have been using the software that came with the camera ( Artemis ) not tried any other, maybe it’s time I did. 
Would exposing in daylight not just saturate the sensor ? 
 

[tomato]

Assuming you have the camera installed at the correct backfocus distance for your RC (or somewhere close) and the scope is pointing centrally at a bright star, set Artemis to loop at half second intervals and then move your focuser in and out. It’s not quite live view, but you will get feedback quick enough to make progress.

Please don’t  give up on the 314, it was my first ‘proper’ Astro camera, it is what got me hooked on AP.

[rnobleeddy]

It's much easier to try to focus on something far away in the day time, typically a neighbors chimney, roof, a lamppost or some branches. 

If you can also find some software that can loop images then that'll make it easier. Sharpcap (https://www.sharpcap.co.uk/) might do it, but not sure if this camera will work in that way.

[ollypenrice]

Artemis is absolutely brilliant, as is the camera. Hang on in there. As Tomato says, it is virtually live view if you use short subs and bin 2x2.

What do you see on the capture screen in Artemis? If it is jet black when you take a short sub the camera is saturating or has another connection issue.

Are you dead sure your finder is well aligned? You might be missing the star in the main scope at long FL and with small chip. If unsure, try pointing at a tight open cluster instead of a single star.

It is a small chip so an out of focus star will easily exceed its edges giving a fairly even light glow. Be sure that you are letting each sub download before you make another movement to the focuser. The expoure coundown shows in the lower right of the screen.

16 minutes ago, rnobleeddy said:

It's much easier to try to focus on something far away in the day time, typically a neighbors chimney, roof, a lamppost or some branches. 

If you can also find some software that can loop images then that'll make it easier. Sharpcap (https://www.sharpcap.co.uk/) might do it, but not sure if this camera will work in that way.

This may not work with CCD. An excess of light will just saturate the chip and cause it to show jet black.

Olly

[michael8554]

The scope was originally set up for a DSLR with a 44 mm lens-flange-to-sensor spacing, or 55mm with the T2 Adapter.

On the 314L that spacing is only 13mm.

So 55 - 13 = 42mm is the amount of spacing you need to add, to place the 314L sensor where the DSLR sensor was.

Michael

[ollypenrice]

33 minutes ago, michael8554 said:

The scope was originally set up for a DSLR with a 44 mm lens-flange-to-sensor spacing, or 55mm with the T2 Adapter.

On the 314L that spacing is only 13mm.

So 55 - 13 = 42mm is the amount of spacing you need to add, to place the 314L sensor where the DSLR sensor was.

Michael

Probably a filterwheel in there as well? They usually add about 19mm.

Olly

[rnobleeddy]

6 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

This may not work with CCD. An excess of light will just saturate the chip and cause it to show jet black.

I thought I'd done with this with at least one atik ccd in the past, but my memory may be faulty!

[ebdons]

The pinhole cap is so you can adjust the focus in daylight and have enough exp length to get something,  like i said i don't know this cam personally but the sensor is a common one from a few years ago so just keep trying and if needed use some filter, maybe if the moon is up later try and use that to get an idea about what you have to do to get the focus correct. this is the starlight foil cap in use. then you just focus in daylight.

[Davey-T]

With my SCT I'm often swopping cameras including the Atik 314L and eyepieces so spend a while refocussing.

First check that the camera is actually working by taking 1 second exposures in with and without the scope covered, the image should change from dark to light, as Olly said this can be counter intuitive as too much light will turn the screen black.

Have the mount tracking then without the camera, and filter wheel if used fitted, find a bright star, Sirius or Jupiter if about is really good, even the Moon, and slew to get it in the view up the scope and align the finder with it.
I have to use this method for finding Mars which is a nightmare to find.

Replace the camera set it looping on quick one second exposures with L filter if using filters, wind focuser right in and you should get some indication of an image hopefully an out of focus donut,
if you don't reach focus when right out it needs spacing, if using a compression ring fitting you can get a rough Idea by just sliding the camera out of the fitting to see where it focusses.

Have you got a separate guide scope fitted ? if so you can set that looping as with wider FOV it's easier to find stuff, most galaxy cores will show up on guide scope and on Artemis capture screen with looping 5/10 second exposures.

Dave
 

 

 

[JemC]

13 hours ago, ebdons said:

do the pinhole trick in daylight

Please do enlighten me as to what this is,

 

7 hours ago, tomato said:

Assuming you have the camera installed at the correct backfocus distance for your RC (or somewhere close)

I have a feeling that this is what the problem is going to be, going to have to play about and fiddle a bit more

7 hours ago, rnobleeddy said:

It's much easier to try to focus on something far away in the day time, typically a neighbors chimney, roof, a lamppost or some branches. 

If you can also find some software that can loop images then that'll make it easier.

 I stuck the DSLR back on it today and had a play around i pointed it at a an alarm box that was on a house probably about 150-200 ft away,

this is were everything ends up when it's in focus with DSLR 

7 hours ago, michael8554 said:

The scope was originally set up for a DSLR with a 44 mm lens-flange-to-sensor spacing, or 55mm with the T2 Adapter.

On the 314L that spacing is only 13mm.

So 55 - 13 = 42mm is the amount of spacing you need to add, to place the 314L sensor where the DSLR sensor was.

Michael

Please see image above, Do i now need to remove the ext tube when the Atik is connected ?

7 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

Artemis is absolutely brilliant, as is the camera. Hang on in there. As Tomato says, it is virtually live view if you use short subs and bin 2x2.

What do you see on the capture screen in Artemis? If it is jet black when you take a short sub the camera is saturating or has another connection issue.

Are you dead sure your finder is well aligned? You might be missing the star in the main scope at long FL and with small chip. If unsure, try pointing at a tight open cluster instead of a single star.

I agree about Artemis it's just so easy and uncomplicated to use , Jurys still out on the camera at the minute 😁

I took a couple of shots with the Atik today, (not in focus i might add) so I'll try explain what was on the screen,

I took

1 image at 0.01sec with sensor exposed, the resulting image was white
1 image at 0.01sec with scope cap on, the resulting image was what i would call a dirty grey speckled image

i did the same with 10sec and they where the same,

i did not get any jet black image at any time ( is that good or bad? )

i really appreciate everyone's help on this, hopefully it will be clear tonight then i can have another go,
 

 

[michael8554]

 

In this image I assume the DSLR is in focus.

The white dot on the DSLR body is where it's sensor is.

But first I would focus on a landmark much further away than a couple of hundred feet, then measure the distance indicated by the red lines.

You need to place the 314L's sensor at that distance.

How you do that depends on what adapters and extension tubes you have, and the amount of focuser travel.

Then put the tin foil with a pin prick onto the front of the telescope, held with an elastic band.

Your current camera mountings are not very rigid for imaging - use threaded connections, not screw clamp fittings that can wobble and cause tilt.

Michael

Edited April 18, 2021 by michael8554

[carastro]

The Atik314L is an excellent camera I used one for a number of years, and also Artemis is brilliant for seeing if you have the target in the FOV, see Olly's post above.  Do what he says about binning, and use the sliders to brighten or dim your target and switching to negative also shows up nebulosity more clearly if you move the slider to the left.  Presuming from your description this is a mono camera.

To be honest I am not familiar with your telescope though, but I am pretty sure the only thing wrong is the spacing to get focus.  I found switching to a Mono Atik camera from a DSLR much much easier for focus and framing.   I found the space needed between the camera and the scope needed to be a fair bit less than the DSLR.   Also you might find you need a focal reducer to help you get focus.  

Carole 

Edited April 18, 2021 by carastro

[Anne S]

57 minutes ago, michael8554 said:

 

In this image I assume the DSLR is in focus.

The white dot on the DSLR body is where it's sensor is.

But first I would focus on a landmark much further away than a couple of hundred feet, then measure the distance indicated by the red lines.

You need to place the 314L's sensor at that distance.

How you do that depends on what adapters and extension tubes you have, and the amount of focuser travel.

Then put the tin foil with a pin prick onto the front of the telescope, held with an elastic band.

Your current camera mountings are not very rigid for imaging - use threaded connections, not screw clamp fittings that can wobble and cause tilt.

Michael

Have you got any of the extension tubes in front of the focuser? I've used my SX694 with the same scope and I need at least one of them there, can't remember which one! The SX has 17.5mm back focus. I found an instruction manual for the Orion version that showed a diagramme as to which tube to use for various setups. I'll try to find it.

[Anne S]

Here is is. Look on page 4.

OrionManual.pdf

[michael8554]

Good point Anne.

So Jem should measure from the rear of the OTA, and adjust spacers before and after the focuser, and the focuser itself, to get the 314L at the same distance as the DSLR.

I'm wondering now if the DSLR is at the RC's "sweet spot", or just some arbitrary point that focuses ?

Michael

[Anne S]

8 hours ago, michael8554 said:

Good point Anne.

So Jem should measure from the rear of the OTA, and adjust spacers before and after the focuser, and the focuser itself, to get the 314L at the same distance as the DSLR.

I'm wondering now if the DSLR is at the RC's "sweet spot", or just some arbitrary point that focuses ?

Michael

I think he should have used the extension tubes with his dslr as per the chart. I certainly didn't have any problems getting focus with my 694. I recall having to switch from the 2 inch tube to the 1 inch when I tried it at night.

My RC6 came with 2 x 1 inch and 1 two inch spacers. It's an Altairastro one, but the same scope is sold by various vendors.

[JemC]

10 hours ago, Anne S said:

Here is is. Look on page 4.

Thank you for this, found it very helpful.

So this is now how i have my Atik 314L+ mono attached according to this, 4b
Just going to have to wait to try it now as it is cloudy,

[Anne S]

11 hours ago, JemC said:

Thank you for this, found it very helpful.

So this is now how i have my Atik 314L+ mono attached according to this, 4b
Just going to have to wait to try it now as it is cloudy,

If you have a reducer you need to be a bit closer. If you run out of focus just remove one tube. That's why I ended up switching the 2 inch out.

[JemC]

1 hour ago, Anne S said:

If you have a reducer you need to be a bit closer. If you run out of focus just remove one tube. That's why I ended up switching the 2 inch out.

I don't have a reducer just yet but thanks for the tip 😁 
I'm probably still going to have to play around with it a little more as i need to attach manual FW to it yet so i assume that is going to throw it off a little,

[Anne S]

On 19/04/2021 at 10:10, JemC said:

I don't have a reducer just yet but thanks for the tip 😁 
I'm probably still going to have to play around with it a little more as i need to attach manual FW to it yet so i assume that is going to throw it off a little,

My filterwheel is 22mm thick, 1 inch spacers are 25mm, just remove the relevant spacer. It'll work fine. That was why I switched the 2 inch for the 1 inch as I ran out of inward focus. The focuser has a long drawtube so remove more that you need. The focuser will just be further out. 

[JemC]

I'm going to give this another go tonight, i know the moons up and about but that should give me a target big and bright enough to see and try focus on 

[newbie alert]

19 hours ago, JemC said:

I'm going to give this another go tonight, i know the moons up and about but that should give me a target big and bright enough to see and try focus on 

Jemc, the critical thing to do is your backfocus distance,  so see what the spec of the RC says and incorporate the camera backfocus into this figure.. also if you're using a reducer this will change this figure.. getting this figure right is to fully illuminate the sensor , Artemis is really good to use, have you got dawn so you can view the fitts images too?  Once you have the camera connected,  point the scope at a bright star and press the loop button.. on the histogram adjust the white slider until you get an image on the screen and use the screen stretch.. 

So use the loop button, you can bin 2x2 if you like

Edited April 24, 2021 by newbie alert
Added info

[newbie alert]

Click here to bring up the histogram, where the cursor is