M3 / M53 - How do globular clusters appear?

[wibblefish]

I finally got a clear(ish) night last night after a month, yay!  

After a quick peek at the moon I decided to have a quick look at what was in the sky in the opposite direction as it seemed very bright even though its only 50% I think.

After a quick go at the Leo triplet which failed miserably though I am confident I was in the right place the most prominent star in that direction I identified as Arcturus in Bootis. With a quick cast around with my charts I decided to have a look for M3 which was NW(ish!). Starting with a 25mm I found a patch of grey fuzzy and some further work looking at surrounding stars I am fairly sure it was M3 when studying it more. It appeared mostly as an out of focus star in my 90mm refractor, I tried various magnifications but found that it was best defined at my original 25mm in terms of brightness. 

Afterwards I had a look at where else I could hop to and decided to make for M53 in Coma Berenices which similarly is a globular cluster. Again I located it with the 25mm & 18mm as a dim grey fuzzy and studying the stars around it I am fairly confident I was in the right place (really enjoying the new Sky & Telescope Jumbo Pocket Atlas instead of primarily using my phone apps!).

I then reorientated myself onto Vindemiatrix (I think!) in Virgo and went hunting for some other messiers but I had zero luck spotting any of them, will have to evaluate if my telescope is likely to be able to see them and what they are meant to be  

In terms of finding objects and doing some navigation I was really pleased with the night but I felt the two globular clusters were a little underwhelming. I was expecting to be able to see something more than a standard nebula looking grey fuzzy, I've been trying to research what it should've looked like and get conflicting reports of people being able to resolve grainy stars across the cluster in 60-80mm scopes, am I expecting to much (especially in a bortle 4-5 with 50% moon)?

Edited March 22, 2021 by wibblefish

[Orange Smartie]

I'm sure someone more qualified will be along shortly.  My 2p worth - I think you'll probably see them better when it's darker.  I was looking at M13 a little while ago and although that is supposed to be incredible, I was only really picking out individual stars by means of averted vision.  Otherwise it was a fairly big blob of fuzz.  This is in a 6 inch dobsonian, by the way.

I'm guessing upping the magnification (if the target is bright enough) won't be a bad idea.

[Waddensky]

That sounds about right, globulars are just fuzzy but perfectly round patches in small apertures. Resolving stars in the outskirts of the cluster is possible, but requires a lot of aperture and magnification.

It also depends on the cluster. Messier 4 and 22 are known to be reasonably easy to resolve, but they don't rise very high from mid-northern latitudes. Messier 10, 12 and 71 are also nice targets to try to spot individual stars. Messier 3 and 13, although bright, are not so easy.

[wibblefish]

Thanks for the responses! 

@Orange Smartie I am not sure how much darker I can get at this site alas, this was around 11pm at night, Bootis is to low for me till that sort of time anyway I think as I haven't really seen it over the winter months). If I ever great brave I'll have to go to a darker site but with small un's thats probably not going to happen for a while, best I could probably do is get a bigger aperture though not for a while!  Yeah I was disappointed magnifying (tried 12 and 8mm) didn't really do much other than make it fuzzier! I will have to try M13 at some point but its in the wrong place at present!

@Waddensky Oh well that's good to know, I will have to do some reading then and see. Still happy to have found new things with the 90mm frac again, always fun looking for those little "smudges" of grey ... most people I tell are supremely underwhelmed ... "so you spend half the night and you found an indistinct grey blob" "well yes but its actually a massive cluster of stars tens of thousands of light years away" lol  

Edited March 22, 2021 by wibblefish

[scarp15]

If you can save up for an 8" dob, this will transform the views of Globular Clusters. They do require mid to high power to resolve more completely. Perhaps learn to adapt a touch of averted vision, as this to will assist to resolve the star cluster. M53 is quite tightly condensed, M3 will resolve more easily into a dazzling display of star fields. It is still a little too early for Hercules and M13, M92. Also wait until they culminate due south, try to become a little dark adapted and take some time to absorb the light entering your observing eye. 

What you have grasped so far with your 90mm refractor will improve as you gain more observing experience. Under moderate light pollution and away from a bright moon, the brighter Globulars will resonate. You could also look presently at some Open Clusters such as M44, Beehive Cluster and a little below this, yet much more subtle is M67 and again experiment with magnification.

[Waddensky]

25 minutes ago, wibblefish said:

"so you spend half the night and you found an indistinct grey blob" "well yes but its actually a massive cluster of stars tens of thousands of light years away" lol  

Haha yes, this exactly. It's not what you see, but what you see. Or something more eloquent 🤔.

[PeterStudz]

From my rather light polluted sky’s I’ve had virtually no luck even seeing a fuzzy blob when I’ve looked at things like M3 with any sort of moon. However, once the moon has gone I’ve had much better luck. Still hard to see much detail but M3 is a far better sight. I even managed a phone picture which bought out some structure. 

[Orange Smartie]

Yes, sorry I should have been clearer. By "darker" I mean on a night with no moon (or at least with the moon rising later).

[John]

If there is one target that really benefits from increased aperture, globular clusters are it. Dark skies help as well as does a modicum of magnification. 

At 200x with my 12 inch dob on a decently dark night Messier 13 really does look like this:

Many globular clusters though are not as bright and well resolved as the showcase ones, especially some of the more distant ones (they are all actually quite far away).

Examples of fainter globular clusters that are still interesting and worth observing are Messier 71 in Sagitta and NGC 2419, the so called "Intergalactic Tramp" in Lynx, the latter being a whopping 275,000 light years away.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by John

[wibblefish]

16 minutes ago, Orange Smartie said:

Yes, sorry I should have been clearer. By "darker" I mean on a night with no moon (or at least with the moon rising later).

Ah if only the lovely weather would cooperate! I was just happy my first night in a month went well, had 2 other nights where I booted up, got the scope out and by the time I opened the caps .... full cloud  

27 minutes ago, scarp15 said:

If you can save up for an 8" dob, this will transform the views of Globular Clusters. They do require mid to high power to resolve more completely. Perhaps learn to adapt a touch of averted vision, as this to will assist to resolve the star cluster. M53 is quite tightly condensed, M3 will resolve more easily into a dazzling display of star fields. It is still a little too early for Hercules and M13, M92. Also wait until they culminate due south, try to become a little dark adapted and take some time to absorb the light entering your observing eye. 

What you have grasped so far with your 90mm refractor will improve as you gain more observing experience. Under moderate light pollution and away from a bright moon, the brighter Globulars will resonate. You could also look presently at some Open Clusters such as M44, Beehive Cluster and a little below this, yet much more subtle is M67 and again experiment with magnification.

Its definitely on my radar, going to wait till nearer the end of the year before working out what to get next, I was sold on a Skymax 127 for a while for double star duties but I am leaning towards an 8" Dob purely for the light grasp and the fact I don't have to spend a ton of extra money on new mounts (though moving up to a ST120 is tempting.....). Either way the little 90 will be staying put just purely for grab and go with the gaps in the crap weather as it has zero cooldown! 

[John]

M13 and M92 in Hercules (both excellent globular clusters) are starting to look quite decent by around midnight here. I was observing them last night as it happens.

[John]

A few years ago, at an SGL star party, I had the chance to observe Messier 13 with a superb 20 inch David Lukehurst dobsonian. The view was, to put it mildly, jaw dropping

The cluster completely filled the field of view and was resolved into 100's of thousands of stars right into it's core. I'll never forget that view !

 

 

 

[Louis D]

I can easily resolve M13 and M22 in my 8" Dob at 200x or higher, but not in my 72mm or 90mm fracs.  They just run out of resolving power it seems.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

21 minutes ago, Louis D said:

I can easily resolve M13 and M22 in my 8" Dob at 200x or higher, but not in my 72mm or 90mm fracs.  They just run out of resolving power it seems.

It is not so much a matter of resolving power, but limiting magnitude. I never catch even the brightest stars of M13 or M22 with my 80 mm, could make out a fine "diamond dust" effect in my old 6" Newton, and clearly see a mass of stars in my C8. Aperture is king. The view of these clusters with Olly's old 20" Dobson was absolutely amazing.

[scarp15]

40 minutes ago, wibblefish said:

Ah if only the lovely weather would cooperate! I was just happy my first night in a month went well, had 2 other nights where I booted up, got the scope out and by the time I opened the caps .... full cloud  

Its definitely on my radar, going to wait till nearer the end of the year before working out what to get next, I was sold on a Skymax 127 for a while for double star duties but I am leaning towards an 8" Dob purely for the light grasp and the fact I don't have to spend a ton of extra money on new mounts (though moving up to a ST120 is tempting.....). Either way the little 90 will be staying put just purely for grab and go with the gaps in the crap weather as it has zero cooldown! 

That would be a good plan if you retain your 90mm and then perhaps include a larger aperture scope, such as an 8" dob, they will become complementary. The 90mm refractor will profile at high power doubles cleanly. An 8" F6 Dob is also very good and more purposeful perhaps for tighter splits, that is when fully cooled and effectively collimated. Gemini and Leo for example are good for double star exploring presently.

[Tiny Clanger]

4 hours ago, wibblefish said:

After a quick go at the Leo triplet which failed miserably though I am confident I was in the right place ....
 

Unexpected very late (midnight to around 2:45 am) window through the clouds here last night, and I nipped out hoping to see the nova , carrying the st80 a few streets away from home because my garden's view to the north has a house in the way (my house ..) Back home, mission accomplished, I took it out in the garden for a quick look around before I got too sleepy, and managed the Great Hercules cluster with it, just a fuzzy grey cotton wool blob , but it was my first sight  (this is my first year of observing, and Hercules has not swum into my early evening, lockdown visible,  garden sky yet ). Saw the open cluster of NGC 6885 too .

On the first night I used the st80 I tried for the Leo triplet in a gap between clouds , and managed a vague, averted vision, not entirely confident I wasn't imagining it , possible M65 , just a suspicion of something elongated ... I know I was in the right place, with Vesta, Chertan and the triplet all in the FOV of the 25mm BST at that time  !

On Feb 28th I compared the view of the three open clusters in Auriga, M 36, 37, 38 with the 150 dob and the small 'frac. with about an hour window for some DSOs between sunset and moonrise,  Auriga was in a good part of my sky, so looked at them first in the dob, then took out the st80 for a quick last look before the Moon rose . In the dob with a 15mm BST I had the 'tiny sprinkle of salt on black velvet' view , but with the st80 all three clusters were visible but (to quote my notes ) 'v.  small tangles of fuzz' .

So yes, aperture is the thing to go for for . I'd really rather like a 200mm dob too ... but for the moment, 150mm will keep me busy and stretch my beginner  skills, especially if/when I can go somewhere with less accursed light pollution . It's horses for courses 🙂  : dob for DSOs and faint stuff, mak for moon & planets, st80 for short, unexpected windows of opportunity .

Heather

 

[SuburbanMak]

Spent some quality time with M13 on Friday night/Saturday morning with both a 127 Mak & an ST80.  Seeing was preventing any benefit from magnification above 120x but at that I was seeing a nice ball with some granularity and stars popping in and out of resolution across the view, especially with averted vision. Really lovely view that commanded a long look. 

Was definitely better as it got higher in the sky and the moon correspondingly lower!  In the ST80 it was an indistinct fuzzy ball but the two views side by side really gave scale. 

My notes to self are to go after globulars when i) seeing will tolerate higher magnification, ii) they are as high in the sky as possible & iii) there is no moon to interfere.  

[wibblefish]

Thanks for the replies all, its nice to hear I am not very far off track with my observations at least! Will definitely have to revisit even if its just to reconfirm my positioning  

Now all this talk of large telescopes has got me thinking, can I possibly hide a 200P in the garage from the wife...

[Kon]

3 hours ago, wibblefish said:

Now all this talk of large telescopes has got me thinking, can I possibly hide a 200P in the garage from the wife...

I have the 200P Dob and the views are amazing. It really brings those clusters into life and they get resolved quite well; most clusters you can see nice individual stars with colours. M13 was filling my FOV but you could start resolving  some individual stars at high mag. You can try convince your wife that it looks like a piece of modern art in the sitting rom 🤣, no need to hide it in the garage.

[Zermelo]

I saw M3 for the first time last week (150mm/Bortle 4/no moon).  I was hoping to resolve a few stars - I have done so with M10, M12 and a few others - but it was just a grey blob. I think M3 is harder.

[Gfamily]

This is a modified image to show the difference between my view of M13 from the Astrocamp site in S Wales, and the view 2 weeks later from my edge of urban home.

It's worth getting away if you can. Camping is a good way of getting to dark sites with  little ones. 

[Louis D]

18 hours ago, Zermelo said:

I saw M3 for the first time last week (150mm/Bortle 4/no moon).  I was hoping to resolve a few stars - I have done so with M10, M12 and a few others - but it was just a grey blob. I think M3 is harder.

I can't resolve the smaller/farther away GCs either in an 8" Dob.

[mdstuart]

You now have what is called aperture fever.

[faulksy]

On 22/03/2021 at 17:14, wibblefish said:

Thanks for the replies all, its nice to hear I am not very far off track with my observations at least! Will definitely have to revisit even if its just to reconfirm my positioning  

Now all this talk of large telescopes has got me thinking, can I possibly hide a 200P in the garage from the wife...

hide it behind the hoover she will never look there 🤣

try and hide a 20" dob then

[Louis D]

15 hours ago, faulksy said:

try and hide a 20" dob then

Get a used Tectron Dob that collapses into a single, closed cube shape and can be used as an end table.