Disconnection From Nature

[Luke]

Our old neighbours, who we really liked and who moved nearby, were into all kinds of little lights in their garden! My view is that it was their garden, they can do what they like with it.

Of course I have sympathy with stargazers, but their land is their land, is my view!

Fortunately for me, I got mainly interested in solar at the time anyway, so light pollution could not touch me! So I say, if you have awful light pollution, maybe consider a bit of solar, moon and planets. The sun is super special, as it is the only star we can see close up, and outside of solar minimum -  which I hope is behind us now!!! - it is incredibly dynamic!

Edited November 14, 2020 by Luke

[Mr Thingy]

7 hours ago, andrew s said:

Ask that the wood is put to use. As a hard wood it had uses in interiors but lacks durability externally. This way the CO2 release will be long delayed. 

Regards Andrew 

Excellent idea. 😀

[maw lod qan]

1 hour ago, Luke said:

Our old neighbours, who we really liked and who moved nearby, were into all kinds of little lights in their garden! My view is that it was their garden, they can do what they like with it.

Of course I have sympathy with stargazers, but their land is their land, is my view!

 

I have the same feeling to a point.

We have a local facebook group for the area I live in who opposes new construction. They want to restrict the down sizing of plots of land to keep the country, country. 

If it's yours do what you feel right, or need to do to care for your family.

But big bright lights shining onto my property doesn't fit that thinking.

There is nothing in the dark that's not there in the light, except the light. 

[Paz]

I've seen more lights at night over time from neighbours but the reasons are varied.

For example lighting up a nice garden for enjoyment, having a bad experience leading to having security lights, and often simply lights on inside houses with curtains not closed. Where I live this last issue amounts to a noticeable issue on its own.

[david_taurus83]

Apparently, a study in Arizona measured street lighting to only contribute around  20% of actual light pollution. I'm struggling to believe that though. It would have been interesting to see the result if they had shut off all lighting for a minute or so and captured it from space.

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-news/street-light-pollution/

 

[Aramcheck]

1 hour ago, david_taurus83 said:

Apparently, a study in Arizona measured street lighting to only contribute around  20% of actual light pollution. I'm struggling to believe that though. It would have been interesting to see the result if they had shut off all lighting for a minute or so and captured it from space.

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-news/street-light-pollution/

 

I haven't read the original paper yet on this, but Tucson probably isn't a good comparison with UK cities. Tucson already  dims street lights quite significantly, whereas the BS-EN13201 spec. for UK road lighting only allows for potential variation of lighting on major roads, not residential areas.

I expect that dimming of street lights will become more common in the UK, when LoRaWAN networks are installed & lights can then be controlled through a central system.

BTW the UK road lighting specification is also non-mandatory & only provides minimum lighting levels for different road classes, so there's no incentive (other than cost) for councils to minimise lighting levels. It also includes a section on lighting up the natural environment, which is completely opposite to what should be the case, if the natural environment/wildlife is to be considered.

I'd be very interested to know if any major UK cities have a dimming regime.

Cheers
Ivor

[andrew s]

Disconnecting from nature is what has driven our technological progress. The excess of past generations becomes the norm for later. In my youth we had a single heated room now central heating and air conditioning is common. 

We had one electric appliance (a radio) apart from lighting now I would  not dare to count but the two of us have 3 laptops, one desktop,  3 tablets and two smartphones 😁. 

Regards Andrew 

Edited November 14, 2020 by andrew s

[Tiny Clanger]

4 hours ago, Luke said:

Our old neighbours, who we really liked and who moved nearby, were into all kinds of little lights in their garden! My view is that it was their garden, they can do what they like with it.

True, but the problem is not what people do with their own property, but how what they do spills onto neighbouring properties, and affects their owner's ability to do what they like with their own space.

In that respect , careless light pollution is exactly like thoughtless noise pollution. I could easily listen to loud music outdoors by cranking up my hi fi output to the speakers and throwing the doors and windows open , but as a good neighbour, I use headphones. To do otherwise would be either the result of lack of awareness, disregard of other people's rights, or simple bloody mindedness.

We need education ,prompting increased awareness of light pollution and itsnegative effects (not just on a minority hobby, but on wildlife too) in the general population . Anyone got David Attenborough's  'phone number ?

Meanwhile, I just started reading 'The End of Night'   by Paul Bogard, which is an interesting book on just this subject. I don't recall where I saw it recommended , it may even have been a thread on here, in which case, thanks whoever suggested it.

Heather

[JamesF]

Well, I am reconnecting with nature through the use of technology today.  Just having a break from chainsawing up bits of felled tree to feed the log-burners this winter, out in the wind and rain.  (In fact, the reason I'm having a break is because it suddenly got a bit torrential :)

James

[andrew s]

3 minutes ago, JamesF said:

Well, I am reconnecting with nature through the use of technology today.  Just having a break from chainsawing up bits of felled tree to feed the log-burners this winter, out in the wind and rain.  (In fact, the reason I'm having a break is because it suddenly got a bit torrential

James

Chain saw! What's wrong with you teeth beaver style. 🤓 Regards Andrew 

[JamesF]

Actually, it's just struck me that one of  the interesting ways astronomy has brought about a reconnection with nature for me is that I now recognise many of the nocturnal denizens of our area just by the noises they make as they wander around looking for food or doing whatever else they do.  And whilst it's not common for me to be able to hear them, seeing the bats hunting in the twilight is a great pleasure too.

James

[JamesF]

Just now, andrew s said:

Chain saw! What's wrong with you teeth beaver style.

They're at the dentist, being repaired from last time :D

James

[Luke]

Hmmm, my view has changed a bit! I was thinking about this earlier having made my post and so I thought I would look up what the law says on it. I was not aware of this British law:

Quote

The Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 now makes light nuisance subject to the same criminal law as noise and smells. It applies to "artificial light emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance."

https://britastro.org/dark-skies/cfds_advice.php?topic=law

Thinking about it, would I be happy if my neighbour was blaring very loud music all day long? No. The noise would be affecting me unfairly. Patience would wear thin! So I suppose excessive lighting that affects your enjoyment of your own garden and a very important hobby is also not a fair situation.

Sometimes two things are both valid in their own way, like my neighbours enjoying night lighting in the garden, and we wanting to stargaze, and sometimes those two valid things collide and I suppose my view when I think it through is that I generally believe in people doing what they like so long as it does not adversely affect others. Well here it can and does, and in some ways it is arguably similar to the constant loud music situation.

If my neighbours had an issue where I was significantly affecting their enjoyment, I would hope they would let me know as I would want to be a good neighbour and try to fix things if I could and it was a reasonable complaint.

In my case the light pollution issue was not that bad, it was a bit of a pain. If it had been really bad, like a floodlight directly lighting up our garden that really affected my stargazing, then I would have talked to my neighbour about it.

We do have a bit of a pain of a streetlamp that shines into our garden, though we can sort of work around it. Perhaps we should look into that, we did make some initial enquiries about it with our local council without getting anywhere and did not chase it up further. And maybe we can and should get something done about a strong security light that shines onto a bedroom window.

If you have a really bad issue with lighting it must be very frustrating.

2 hours ago, Tiny Clanger said:

True, but the problem is not what people do with their own property, but how what they do spills onto neighbouring properties, and affects their owner's ability to do what they like with their own space.

In that respect , careless light pollution is exactly like thoughtless noise pollution. I could easily listen to loud music outdoors by cranking up my hi fi output to the speakers and throwing the doors and windows open , but as a good neighbour, I use headphones. To do otherwise would be either the result of lack of awareness, disregard of other people's rights, or simple bloody mindedness.

We need education ,prompting increased awareness of light pollution and itsnegative effects (not just on a minority hobby, but on wildlife too) in the general population . Anyone got David Attenborough's  'phone number ?

Meanwhile, I just started reading 'The End of Night'   by Paul Bogard, which is an interesting book on just this subject. I don't recall where I saw it recommended , it may even have been a thread on here, in which case, thanks whoever suggested it.

Heather

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Luke

[scarp15]

Here is an article on ecological benefits for part lighting. This should apply to homeowners as well as specifically local authorities, large establishments such as airports, business parks; each great and small has a role to play towards education and improvement of night time ecology.

 https://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/archive/2019/01/streetlighting/

 

[cloudsweeper]

45 minutes ago, scarp15 said:

Here is an article on ecological benefits for part lighting. This should apply to homeowners as well as specifically local authorities, large establishments such as airports, business parks; each great and small has a role to play towards education and improvement of night time ecology.

 https://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/archive/2019/01/streetlighting/

 

Good article, Iain.

Our study suggests that turning off street lights in the middle of the night is a win-win scenario, saving energy and money for local authorities whilst simultaneously helping our nocturnal wildlife.

And of course unnecessary "ornamental" domestic lights waste energy, are intrusive, disturb wildlife, and brass astronomers off!

Doug.

[DAVE AMENDALL]

On 13/11/2020 at 10:22, andrew s said:

For modern man night holds few fears (at least for us on SGL) but for our ancestors night was to be feared as they were pray to a number of night hunters. The desire to have a safe haven with fire and light was probably encoded in our behaviour then which persists to this day.

Personally,  I enjoy a dark night and wish others did too. Maybe the desire for light at night is a deep connection with an ancient nature not a modern disconnect.

Regards Andrew 

Yes Andrew, A good number of people who live near me are frightened by the dark. as well. I grew out of that about age 11...............Dave

[maw lod qan]

My grandchildren are afraid of the dark. They're 10 and 7. Have to have a very bright night light and even sleep in our room when they stay overnight.

I do hope they grow out of it too.

Out where I live, being outside on a dark night, with everything that's wild, can be a moving moment.

Owls talking to each other, coyotes and foxes in the distance barking and howling is an incredible sound. Been many years ago, but I can remember camping and hearing a Fla panther!

[theropod]

While my wife and I live in a remote place, and have no neighbors within miles, we did “experiment” with living in the Willamette valley of western Oregon for 8 months. Sky gazing west of the Cascade range is almost pointless. Off to the east of that valley, deep in the desert, are some of the most pristine skies I have ever seen. Having to drive 120 miles one way to get to one of those sites wasn’t appealing. My current issue is the humidity load in the air that changes over less than an hour from not-too-bad seeing to this-is-a-waste-of-time. It can, and does, shift like this several times during the night. I blame our proximity to the Gulf of Mexico plain where we live. Pulses of warm ocean air often ride along high above, and the sky quivers. Even when it’s dry down here on ground level doesn’t mean it is 9,000 feet up, or higher. Still, I’m lucky and I know it.

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

On 11/11/2020 at 10:49, cloudsweeper said:

A near neighbour has (at last count): 2 lights on the shed, 3 on the house, a bright conservatory (without blinds), various lanterns, and a light on the tree at the end of the garden.

Other neighbours and I have spoken (nicely) to him about this, but he just carries on regardless.

It struck me recently that this is a growing trend.  Further from home, I have seen large houses with their walls, gables, pediments, and parking areas awash with bright white lights.  Another property was adorned with thousands of silver and gold fairy lights.

The only explanation I can come up with is that these people are utterly disconnected from Nature.

My own light issue?  The only thing I can do is work round the problem and not let it get me down.  I know lots of you out there have similar problems!

Doug.

Depending on the type of light, people just think they're pretty or a security feature. There's not much one can do.

My dad loves nature. Sitting on a canal bank fishing is his idea of heaven. His garden is a love affair. The small lawn is like a perfect green carpet. There are lovely flowers, plants and a hedgerow teaming with birds. Happy gnomes are everywhere, as are a multitude of multi coloured solar lights illuminating the space like a grotto.

It's frustrating for me because he's six miles further out of the city. The sky quality in his garden is definitely better than mine and there are no dreaded LED street lamps. However if I took astronomy gear there, I'd have to spend ages trying to cover the lights...

 

[Aramcheck]

On 18/11/2020 at 21:29, ScouseSpaceCadet said:

My dad loves nature. Sitting on a canal bank fishing is his idea of heaven. His garden is a love affair. The small lawn is like a perfect green carpet. There are lovely flowers, plants and a hedgerow teaming with birds. Happy gnomes are everywhere, as are a multitude of multi coloured solar lights illuminating the space like a grotto.

 

@ScouseSpaceCadet You should tell your Dad that slugs are one of the few creatures that benefit from illuminated gardens:-

"The number of slugs, primarily Arionidae, increased strongly in the illuminated site but not on the dark site. There are several nonexclusive explanations for this effect, including reduced predation and increased food quality in the form of carcasses of insects attracted by the light. As slugs play an important role in ecosystems and are also important pest species, the increase of slugs under artificial illumination cannot only affect ecosystem functioning but also have important economic consequences."

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jez.2170

Cheers
Ivor