Disconnection From Nature

[cloudsweeper]

A near neighbour has (at last count): 2 lights on the shed, 3 on the house, a bright conservatory (without blinds), various lanterns, and a light on the tree at the end of the garden.

Other neighbours and I have spoken (nicely) to him about this, but he just carries on regardless.

It struck me recently that this is a growing trend.  Further from home, I have seen large houses with their walls, gables, pediments, and parking areas awash with bright white lights.  Another property was adorned with thousands of silver and gold fairy lights.

The only explanation I can come up with is that these people are utterly disconnected from Nature.

My own light issue?  The only thing I can do is work round the problem and not let it get me down.  I know lots of you out there have similar problems!

Doug.

[niallk]

Yup 😕 used to enjoy getting out often just in the back garden... cannot any more.

If I couldn't have observed from the back garden at the start, I doubt I'd have purchased my first scope at all (250px)...

[maw lod qan]

Dont know about across the pond, but we're entering the Christmas season.

Who can put the most lights on their house and in their yard.

I bet for a month or two we look like a double star system from a far. 😎

[cloudsweeper]

21 minutes ago, maw lod qan said:

Dont know about across the pond, but we're entering the Christmas season.

Who can put the most lights on their house and in their yard.

I bet for a month or two we look like a double star system from a far. 😎

At least someone on the planet Zog will enjoy the view!  😆

Doug.

[RobertI]

There have been a few threads about this recently, definitely a growing trend. Only a matter of time before one of my neighbours does the same. Our small development of 150 houses has a facebook group and I regularly point out interesting things happening in the night sky and encourge them to take a look and reconnect with the universe around them. I was also going to host a regular 'sidewalk astronomy' session outside my house to show people the moon, planets, etc. Covid put a halt to that but hoping to resurrect it in 2021. I'm hoping that getting people out into their back gardens at night and looking up might....just might.....make people think twice about these stupid illuminations. Unfortunately it only take one idiot.

[Hertford Stargazer]

In a nearby village there is a house on a hillside who a few months ago installed the mother of all floodlights pointing almost vertically illuminating a very large tree. Said tree and associated mini light dome were visible for several miles in some directions. On approaching the house from the top of the hill and rounding the bend in the road you were blinded by the glare.

I dropped the local Environmental Officer an email complaining about the situation and also admitting to my astronomy interest. I pointed out politely a few key issues which were as follows.

1- the hazard to road users by being blinded.

2- the environmental impact to nature and potential damage to tree by interrupting photosynthesis.

3-  after the council installing LED streetlights and reducing skyglow if everyone with a large tree followed suit then all their streetlight work and expense would be wasted.

4- that in general the average member of public was ignorant of the "Clean Neighbourhood and Environment Act 2005, Section 102" making light trespass an environmental crime and the need for education of such.

About 4 days later the light was off and still remains so. I've yet to recieve a reply to my email but from previous council interactions I know it can take a month or two.

[Aramcheck]

On 11/11/2020 at 10:49, cloudsweeper said:

The only explanation I can come up with is that these people are utterly disconnected from Nature.

I've also noticed a few front lawns in our neighbourhood being replaced with astro-turf, which is depressing, given that about 75% of the insect population in our city are found in folks gardens(*). I think there is also a diurnal bias & even folks who are interested in nature don't realise the damage artificial light does on nocturnal species. One of our neighbours, for instance, who does have a keen interest in wildlife, also likes their external 'insecurity' lights.
Cheers
Ivor

(*) http://www.bristol.ac.uk/biology/research/ecological/community/pollinators/news/2018/nee-lay-summary.html

PS: Another interesting doc from 2011: https://cdn.buglife.org.uk/2019/08/A-Review-of-the-Impact-of-Artificial-Light-on-Invertebrates-docx_0.pdf

[Whistlin Bob]

I find this quite depressing.

I recently had a conversation with some work colleagues regarding the installation of very bright LED lights on the street I live on. They were pretty unanimous in their view that it was a great thing. "The light is much cleaner and brighter". "It feels like daylight". "It's a huge improvement". It was clear my objections were seen as an inability to see past my eccentric interests to where most peoples preferences lie. I've little doubt that in a vote I'd have lost.  and badly at that. Who wants to look at the night sky when we've got great telly? And night bugs are ugly.

I was very good: I didn't stab any of them!

[Waddensky]

On 11/11/2020 at 11:49, cloudsweeper said:

The only explanation I can come up with is that these people are utterly disconnected from Nature.

Hard to blame them. The whole society is arranged around a disconnection from natural flow and rhythm imho. People are expected to set out for work at the same time in summer and winter, regardless of daylight. Not to mention the denial of seasons with the use of leaf blowers and lawn mowers 😅.

I try to follow the natural rhythms as much as I can. I enjoy darkness, and not only from a stargazing point of view. I like to take long walks in the night, the sound of migrating geese, a sudden encounter with a deer, well that kind of stuff 😉.

[andrew s]

For modern man night holds few fears (at least for us on SGL) but for our ancestors night was to be feared as they were pray to a number of night hunters. The desire to have a safe haven with fire and light was probably encoded in our behaviour then which persists to this day.

Personally,  I enjoy a dark night and wish others did too. Maybe the desire for light at night is a deep connection with an ancient nature not a modern disconnect.

Regards Andrew 

[Mr Thingy]

I have a slightly different quandry, but still related to the topic of nature. 

My neighbour has asked if we have objections to removal of a massive sycamore tree from their garden. I have mixed feelings as this thing blocks my NE view but it's also a great habitat for bird and insect life. Such a massive tree can't easily be replaced, of course.

Since objects tend to rotate into view from the NE anyway, the tree isn't much of an embuggerment for me when observing. 

It's ultimately their choice, though I could in theory contest during the planning application, but I think I will just tell them that it would be a big shame to remove it and let them make the choice. Hoping they make a sensible decision. 

[cloudsweeper]

1 hour ago, andrew s said:

Maybe the desire for light at night is a deep connection with an ancient nature not a modern disconnect.

Regards Andrew 

To some extent, Yes.  Fires, candles, modern lights have served a purpose in providing protection and visibility, but generally as and when required.  I think the present trend of obliterating darkness with a permanent, glaring, excess of light is no more than fashionable overkill.  

Doug.

[scarp15]

56 minutes ago, cloudsweeper said:

To some extent, Yes.  Fires, candles, modern lights have served a purpose in providing protection and visibility, but generally as and when required.  I think the present trend of obliterating darkness with a permanent, glaring, excess of light is no more than fashionable overkill.  

Doug.

I agree with this, seems like some folk desire their outdoor space to become an extension to their indoor dwelling and fill it with unnecessary lighting effects like some kind of grotto. Just ignorance, desensitized to a natural environment no concept for the harm to native wildlife, insects or the health of some of their neighbours. I don't think that us; the amature astronomers are eccentric, we are more informed and intune to the issues of night time ecology and of light intrusion as well as a whole sway of other stupid concerns as mentioned such as artificial grass lawns. Where I live amidst the terraces is OK, I can understand that some suburban garden areas are full of this switch on trend, extension to christmas lighting. I go wild camping occasionally, through cycling touring and such, an appreciable darkness is an absorbing environment, that through dark adaptation such as at this time of year feels natural and is more in touch with our ancestors conditions, though regrettably if they could be transported into today's world some would also go for the B&Q lighting effects to. Can only hope that there increasingly becomes more public awareness that both air pollution and light pollution are each of a significant concerning issue.

[Aramcheck]

6 hours ago, andrew s said:

For modern man night holds few fears (at least for us on SGL) but for our ancestors night was to be feared as they were pray to a number of night hunters. The desire to have a safe haven with fire and light was probably encoded in our behaviour then which persists to this day.

Personally,  I enjoy a dark night and wish others did too. Maybe the desire for light at night is a deep connection with an ancient nature not a modern disconnect.

There seems to be quite a strong evidence for lighting affecting people's perception of safety & fear of crime. eg:-
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/hopolicers/fcpu29.pdf
also - https://www.celfosc.org/biblio/seguridad/atkins.pdf

But a pretty exhaustive study on the effects of lighting on crime which looked at data from 62 local authorities didn't find any overall correlation between lighting and actual crime or road sccident rates:-
https://jech.bmj.com/content/69/11/1118

Also the Austrian government's guidelines for external lighting cites a study of 248,000 UK burglaries which found that 48% had outside lighting fitted, which suggests that security lighting isn't necessarily an effective deterent.

Of course - there are many other factors to consider, such as light flux, spectrum & the amount of uplight (i.e. light shining above the horizontal). Nobody's suggesting that light isn't beneficial, but it should be adequate for purpose & only shine when & where it's needed.

Cheers
Ivor

[andrew s]

As I understand it  @Aramcheck  burglars quite like security lighting as it let's them see what their doing.

On the upside they tend not to eat you.

Regards Andrew 

[cloudsweeper]

1 hour ago, Aramcheck said:

Nobody's suggesting that light isn't beneficial, but it should be adequate for purpose & only shine when & where it's needed.

Cheers
Ivor

And that's it in a nutshell.

Sadly, what we are seeing more and more nowadays represents the triumph of materialism and egotism over consideration and taste.  😉

Doug.

[scarp15]

19 minutes ago, cloudsweeper said:

And that's it in a nutshell.

Sadly, what we are seeing more and more nowadays represents the triumph of materialism and egotism over consideration and taste.  😉

Doug.

Exactly, common sense lighting, in Newcastle the led street lighting where we live has definitely dimmed, can appreciate the adequate projected beam of light onto the pavement and no more. Some homeowners indulgences have become unnecessary consumer driven extravagances. It is encouraging that the trend for illuminating monuments, historic buildings etc is in some places at least is going into reversal and could in time have some influence upon the stupidity for inappropriate garden lighting, maybe. 

[wulfrun]

I wonder if all this modern LED outdoor lighting shouldn't come with a prominent warning that light pollution is a problem and can actually be an offence. Yes, I know, who reads manuals/boxes? Maybe a prominent label on the box, a bit like health warnings on fags (perhaps not so unpleasant, mind). I know it won't stop the issue but it might make some folk pause and think. Better than nothing anyway. Plus, people can't plead ignorance either.

Maybe there should just be legislation that limits the power, it's certainly about time something was done to confront the issue. Interestingly, there is (or was, I'm not sure which) EU legislation to limit the power of vaccuum cleaners, in the name of efficiency. We also have legislation governing maximum standby power of devices, for the same reason. If they can do that, why cannot they limit insecurity lights and also make them conform to approved designs?

[Mognet]

I'm always surprised at the amount of unnecessary light that I see at night, from bright porch lights on all night and curtains not drawn when the lights are on, to advertising screens and street lighting when there is no one around. People now think of darkness as something to be lit not loved

I came across this good piece the other day on the subject https://theconversation.com/cities-need-to-embrace-the-darkness-of-the-night-sky-heres-why-149129

[Second Time Around]

Hopefully peer pressure over climate change will eventually improve matters. "Eventually" though maybe too late for us oldies.

[JamesF]

11 hours ago, Waddensky said:

I try to follow the natural rhythms as much as I can. I enjoy darkness, and not only from a stargazing point of view. I like to take long walks in the night, the sound of migrating geese, a sudden encounter with a deer, well that kind of stuff 😉.

More and more I find myself wanting to "reconnect" with nature.  The greater the time I spend doing so, the more content and peaceful I feel.

James

[JamesF]

10 hours ago, Mr Thingy said:

I have a slightly different quandry, but still related to the topic of nature. 

My neighbour has asked if we have objections to removal of a massive sycamore tree from their garden. I have mixed feelings as this thing blocks my NE view but it's also a great habitat for bird and insect life. Such a massive tree can't easily be replaced, of course.

I appreciate your point of view, though I'm no particular fan of sycamore I have to admit.  We have a lot of it around here and it feeds a lot of aphids which in turn attract other insects and birds such as swallows (which I do love to see).  However, it's also hideously invasive to the point of almost being a weed.

In your situation I think I'd be inclined to say that you can accept that it may not be the ideal tree to have in their garden but it's a shame to completely remove something that provides a home and food to so many animals and why don't they consider planting a different tree (or two) to replace it (not necessarily in the same location).  It could be an ornamental tree, but perhaps a fruit tree on a rootstock that will keep it to a manageable size and which will also feed many insects might provide more enjoyment.  If they won't run with the idea then they won't, but if they do then it's at least some small mitigation for the removal of the sycamore.

James

[Mr Thingy]

33 minutes ago, JamesF said:

I appreciate your point of view, though I'm no particular fan of sycamore I have to admit.  We have a lot of it around here and it feeds a lot of aphids which in turn attract other insects and birds such as swallows (which I do love to see).  However, it's also hideously invasive to the point of almost being a weed.

In your situation I think I'd be inclined to say that you can accept that it may not be the ideal tree to have in their garden but it's a shame to completely remove something that provides a home and food to so many animals and why don't they consider planting a different tree (or two) to replace it (not necessarily in the same location).  It could be an ornamental tree, but perhaps a fruit tree on a rootstock that will keep it to a manageable size and which will also feed many insects might provide more enjoyment.  If they won't run with the idea then they won't, but if they do then it's at least some small mitigation for the removal of the sycamore.

James

I've no doubt they will replace it; and surely with something more appealing. I too am not a big fan of sycamore, but the shame is that it's old - at least 50 years I would guess - and any replacement will take a long time to reach the same canopy size and leaf density, not to mention the same CO2 intake. 

Though I won't miss the tonne of leaves that somehow seems to land in my garden rather than theirs each autumn.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Mr Thingy

[andrew s]

1 hour ago, Mr Thingy said:

I've no doubt they will replace it; and surely with something more appealing. I too am not a big fan of sycamore, but the shame is that it's old - at least 50 years I would guess - and any replacement will take a long time to reach the same canopy size and leaf density, not to mention the same CO2 intake. 

Though I won't miss the tonne of leaves that somehow seems to land in my garden rather than theirs each autumn.

Ask that the wood is put to use. As a hard wood it had uses in interiors but lacks durability externally. This way the CO2 release will be long delayed. 

Regards Andrew 

[JamesF]

8 minutes ago, andrew s said:

lacks durability externally

"Rots at the merest whiff of damp air"   I've seen a few nice pieces of furniture made from it though.

We have a large ash tree at the back of the house.  Unfortunately a few others around it are starting to show signs that might be indicative of ash dieback.  If we have to have ours cut down as a result I'm going to try to have it cut into floorboards that I can use in another building project I have in mind.

James