Scopes that lose least value

[RobertI]

I believe it is generally accepted that used scopes in good condition will retain around 2/3rds of their new price. Also some scopes seem to sell quicker than others, particularly good fracs. You would think that some high end scopes would retain more of their value, but seeing some Questars and Astrophysics scopes hanging around on ABS for some time, I’m not sure this is true in all cases. 

Which specific scopes do people think will retain their value best? Can a scope ever be considered an investment? 

[John]

I don't think a scope that is bought new can be considered an investment  - they all seem to loose 25%-30% of their value (sometimes more) as soon as they are unwrapped by their first owners. Once that initial hit has been taken however they seem to retain their residual value for many years so if you are concerned about that, perhaps careful buying from the secondhand market is sensible ?

 

 

 

[Sunshine]

Hmm, i wondered the same thing actually, in speaking with Rick Singmaster of Starmaster telescopes he mentioned what his scopes sold for new when he was producing them. These scopes are trading hands now for quite a bit more than what they sold for new, i own one which has been bought and sold twice before i bought it, on all occasions (ran into previous owners of my same scope on forums) the scope has exceeded its original price by a fair bit, surprising actually, maybe its the Zambuto optics?.

[Demonperformer]

5 hours ago, Sunshine said:

These scopes are trading hands now for quite a bit more than what they sold for new

How does inflation affect that?

7 hours ago, RobertI said:

Which specific scopes do people think will retain their value best?

As a general principle, I would say go for something expensive. If a scope costs £100 new, I am extremely unlikely to get one second hand for £90 to save £10. If a scope costs £10000 new, I might well get one secondhand for £9000 to save £1000 (subject to it being in immaculate condition, of course).

[Stu]

I think some of the more desirable AP scopes are likely to be the best in terms of retaining their value, largely because there is a long waiting list for new ones.

Personally I would never buy a scope as an investment, to me they are to be used and looked through, although sensible buying will minimise any losses when you come to resell. At best I've made a very small profit on one or two scopes I've sold, the majority have been at same price or small losses, one or two I took hefty losses on which were a little painful!

[pregulla]

18 minutes ago, Demonperformer said:

As a general principle, I would say go for something expensive. If a scope costs £100 new, I am extremely unlikely to get one second hand for £90 to save £10. If a scope costs £10000 new, I might well get one secondhand for £9000 to save £1000 (subject to it being in immaculate condition, of course).

On the other hand if you buy £100 scope and unable to sell it you loose £100. If you buy £10000 scope and sell it for £9000 you loose £1000

[Stu]

12 minutes ago, Demonperformer said:

How does inflation affect that?

As a general principle, I would say go for something expensive. If a scope costs £100 new, I am extremely unlikely to get one second hand for £90 to save £10. If a scope costs £10000 new, I might well get one secondhand for £9000 to save £1000 (subject to it being in immaculate condition, of course).

Orion Optics scopes are expensive, but seem to lose far more value compared with others when sold, so look out for that. For instance I've just picked up an OO 8" f8 with 1/10th wave optics which would be around £700  for £200, and it is in excellent condition.

[RobertI]

Interesting comments so far, thanks. So it does not seem like there are any scopes which are really sought after because they are no longer made but are in great demand? I guess telescope technology is improving all the time, so the best apo from 30 years ago cannot match what is made today? As @Stu says AP restrict availability and have a long waiting list so have potential for retaining much or all of their value. Are there any others? 

I guess part of me is thinking about how to justify a really nice 120-130 Apo on the basis I will not lose much money in the long term - in other words it IS an asset even even it is NOT an investment. Second hand is probably the answer. A nice Skywatcher 120ED is probably the sensible buy!

[Ben the Ignorant]

8 hours ago, RobertI said:

Which specific scopes do people think will retain their value best?

Those you never sell. ?

[Stu]

19 minutes ago, RobertI said:

I guess part of me is thinking about how to justify a really nice 120-130 Apo on the basis I will not lose much money in the long term - in other words it IS an asset even even it is NOT an investment. Second hand is probably the answer. A nice Skywatcher 120ED is probably the sensible buy!

I would certainly agree with scopes being assets not investments. They have a value, particularly second hand, which should largely be retained if they are well looked after.

A good 120 to 130mm apo bought sensibly on the used market should maintain value well. The 120ED is no exception.

[Ricochet]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

Orion Optics scopes are expensive, but seem to lose far more value compared with others when sold, so look out for that. For instance I've just picked up an OO 8" f8 with 1/10th wave optics which would be around £700  for £200, and it is in excellent condition.

I think the problem OO scopes have is the price of Skywatcher scopes. 

 

8 hours ago, John said:

they all seem to loose 25%-30% of their value (sometimes more) as soon as they are unwrapped by their first owners.

I think it is right they lose value immediately. When you buy a scope new you are not just buying the scope but the support of the retailer and the manufacturer. If you buy second hand you lose that support and you will have to pay to fix any faults that you later find (if possible!). 

[garryblueboy]

3 hours ago, RobertI said:

Interesting comments so far, thanks. So it does not seem like there are any scopes which are really sought after because they are no longer made but are in great demand? I guess telescope technology is improving all the time, so the best apo from 30 years ago cannot match what is made today? As @Stu says AP restrict availability and have a long waiting list so have potential for retaining much or all of their value. Are there any others? 

I guess part of me is thinking about how to justify a really nice 120-130 Apo on the basis I will not lose much money in the long term - in other words it IS an asset even even it is NOT an investment. Second hand is probably the answer. A nice Skywatcher 120ED is probably the sensible buy!

Not always some older scopes optics are of better quality from the old days than the new stuff and are no longer produced due to cost vs cheaper imports from China and of course environmental issues new isn’t always best although there are some very good ones the ED120 is excellent value but a vixen Flourite of the 1990s  is in my opinion better and sharper scope . There are a few sought after scopes but usually price is a factor for most and the extra 10% image quality and build some people can not warrant that cost an example a 120 ED £800 a Takahashi 120 £3500 

[Demonperformer]

23 hours ago, Stu said:

Orion Optics scopes are expensive, but seem to lose far more value compared with others when sold, so look out for that. For instance I've just picked up an OO 8" f8 with 1/10th wave optics which would be around £700  for £200, and it is in excellent condition.

I personally would never sell a scope that cost £700 for £200, but I congratulate you on a great bargain. For a decent instrument there is always going to be a buyer down the road. My question would be, if the seller had been selling it for £450 (just under the 2/3 figure) would you have considered it to be a bad buy?

[noah4x4]

The trouble with most telescopes is that mechanical bits wear out; they are stuck in a Windows 7 RS232 serial time warp;  they are easily damaged or scratched in the dark and once out of warranty are not easily repaired or serviced. I am staggered that they retain value as well as they do. 

Second hand Accessories can be a nightmare. Buy a used Celestron SkyPortal external WiFi accessory and it's odds on that it is the weaker problematic early version. Buy a second hand Starsense and the camera lens has possibly been uscrewed and needs a factory recalibration. Early GPS models have just crashed after the 6th April epoch rollover date. 

How many times does a mount or HC need new firmware in its lifetime?  If it was a car the recalls and unreliability would put it at the bottom of the rankings.  Telescopes get away with this because a firmware update is owner servicable.

Telescopes will never be an investment unless 24 carat gold plated or formerly used by a celebrity.  But my guess is some are more easy to sell than others as you move up the price chain. There will inevitably be more owners of cheap entry level scopes wanting to upgrade.than in the mid or higher price brackets where folk are more likely to be content, I found I invested £thousands in my first three years then reached contentment when I discovered Hyperstar imaging at f/2 meant I didn't need long exposures, guiding, bigger aperture, wedge/GEM or other paraphernalia. Eventually we reach a plateau. But until then this money pit hobby will fuel a vibrant used market sustaining surprisingly high used prices for kit that once out of warranty is pretty high risk when buying used. 

 

[Stu]

43 minutes ago, Demonperformer said:

I personally would never sell a scope that cost £700 for £200, but I congratulate you on a great bargain. For a decent instrument there is always going to be a buyer down the road. My question would be, if the seller had been selling it for £450 (just under the 2/3 figure) would you have considered it to be a bad buy?

No I wouldn't have considered it a bad buy necessarily but would not have been tempted in the same way obviously. It needed picking up from a long distance away, plus is also a relatively old scope despite its good condition si actually I thought it a fair price. In this instance it is also just the OTA and will need putting on a dob mount to be much more useable for me.

[Stu]

4 minutes ago, noah4x4 said:

But until then this money pit hobby will fuel a vibrant used market sustaining surprisingly high used prices for kit that once out of warranty is pretty high risk when buying used. 

They may be high risk in theory, but generally people tend to look after their kit well which contributes to the high retained value. Any damage to a scope has a major impact on its value, particularly optical damage even if the views are not affected to any noticeable degree.

[RobertI]

1 minute ago, Stu said:

They may be high risk in theory, but generally people tend to look after their kit well which contributes to the high retained value. Any damage to a scope has a major impact on its value, particularly optical damage even if the views are not affected to any noticeable degree.

Yes, I have bought five of my six OTAs used, and all but one have been in pristine condition, and the one that wasn’t was priced accordingly. To date, I have only been comfortable buying in person so I can see the condition before buying, pretty much eliminates the risk, for scopes at least. I am pretty confident on getting my money back on all the fracs and the Heritage and not far off for the RC6. I really wouldn’t know how to value the 20 year old C8! 

Every month I pump the equivalent of a very nice mid sized apo into my pension, never to be seen until I am well into my 60’s (possibly) - I’m just trying to justify whether I can ‘diversify’ a bit into some asset classes of an astronomical nature! ??

[Paul73]

Good scopes, matched with reasonable price expectations will always find a buyer  .... in the fullness of time. The rarer the scope. The fuller the time!

Sadly a load of skint stargazers really really really really wanting a gourmet scope doesn’t translate into a sale.

I guess that only step changes in technology will kill values of current ‘investment’ grade gear.

Paul

 

 

[Stu]

2 minutes ago, Paul73 said:

The rarer the scope. The fuller the time!

Very true!

[Paz]

Astronomy isn't a bad hobby for costs. In many hobbies lots of the costs are sunk forever and there is no resale to recoup them. Say you like going to the gym, you lose all your subs and you can't sell on your gym kit. Say you ride motorbikes, all the costs like insurance, petrol, servicing, tyres, etc are sunk.

[Demonperformer]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

No I wouldn't have considered it a bad buy necessarily but would not have been tempted in the same way obviously. It needed picking up from a long distance away, plus is also a relatively old scope despite its good condition si actually I thought it a fair price. In this instance it is also just the OTA and will need putting on a dob mount to be much more useable for me.

Ah. Those 2 points would certainly affect the price I would ask. I tend to price items including delivery costs.

[swag72]

I told my husband that the second hand TMB LZOS 152/1200 that I bought was an investment........ He seemed to believe it ??

[RobertI]

57 minutes ago, swag72 said:

I told my husband that the second hand TMB LZOS 152/1200 that I bought was an investment........ He seemed to believe it ??

Actually, I hear they are virtually worthless nowadays, I’ll take it off your hands for £100. ?

[Paul73]

My local Chancellor of Exchequer is grudgingly on board with Astro “investments”. She expressed delight that the “long telescope with the nice wooden tripod” wasn’t cluttering up the dining room any more. After a short search of the house, she asked where had I put it? She didn’t expect the answer of “last term’s school fees and the MOT for my car”!

Astro purchases haven’t been questioned since.

Paul

PS. Her new found interest in the prices of second hand Astro gear has got me a bit worried☹️?☹️

 

[John]

12 hours ago, Demonperformer said:

I personally would never sell a scope that cost £700 for £200, but I congratulate you on a great bargain. For a decent instrument there is always going to be a buyer down the road. My question would be, if the seller had been selling it for £450 (just under the 2/3 figure) would you have considered it to be a bad buy?

In the realm of pre-owned Orion Optics scopes 65% of the retail price is not a good deal for an OO newtonian if you keep track of the used astro equipment market. The newtonians just don't hold their value so you are throwing money away by paying over the odds for one because you just won't get it back if you sell on. The deal I got when I bought my 12" F/6.3 OO OTA was similar to the one that Stu has just had and it was a good value used purchase IMHO (as was Stu's). The OO maksutovs do better in this respect though.