AZ4 upgrade?

[Alfian]

This is a little bit of thinking out loud, which costs nothing, but over the  summer I'm going to try to put some money together so at some point it probably will!  There is nothing particularly wrong with the AZ4, its a solid bit of kit and works pretty well with my 'scopes but  ever wanting something that little bit better, smoother,better engineered,  more compact even, I'm looking at the possibilities.  Just as an aside, I have slightly re-engineered an old Tal1 mount into Alt/Az configuration and I'm quite pleased with the result. I wouldn't put the ED100 on it but it works well up to a point with the 127 Mak, (and very nicely with the TS 80)  but a small amount of play on what are essentially plain bearings means, I suspect, that it will not be good enough for higher magnifications (120+) should conditions permit.

The SkyTee seems to be the next progression on but from what I've read folks seem to spend additional money/time fettling it to get it the way they want it or selling it and buying something else. That said given my relatively modest mounting needs weight/mass wise, and given that I'm unlikely to be changing my scopes any time soon (famous last words) would a S/H SkyTee fit the bill with better clamps be a cost effective solution?  Is it worth by passing this option and look at  something like the Altair Sabre  or maybe the Giro Ercole Mini which is rated for a payload of 9Kg which should be plenty. Any option at the moment I am looking to use with the 1.75" Steel legged tripod that I use with the AZ4. Shared thoughts, ideas and experiences would, as ever, be appreciated.

 

[Moonshane]

What are your main targets?

I never really got on with eq mounts but with refractors, I have started to really appreciate them. Especially for solar system objects and nights in set areas (rather than zooming about everywhere) a tracking eq5 is a superb mount and hard to beat I think. I got mine for about £150 used and although that was a great price, I'd definitely recommend it. I do also have a Giro 3 and this is great for taking into work etc but if I am at home I always use the eq5 nowadays with anything other than my two big dobs. It handles my 120ED, my 102 ED and even my 6" f11 newt with some ease.

[wookie1965]

I have the EQ5 Pro goto and it is brilliant with my Tal 100rs but equally at home with my 200p when I used this at Buxton (diy party) had some amazing views found objects really accurately. 

[Alfian]

Hi Shane (& Wookie') Targets: although on those rare good nights I'll hunt for the brighter faint fuzzies (mostly unsuccessfully) I accept my smaller aperture scopes are not the light buckets for such and a big dob just wouldn't fit with me at the moment. I do like open clusters ,born out of being a binocular fan, but I aim to be a bit more focused (pun unintended) and I'm quite smitten with globulars and would like catch  some more doubles. Then of course there are luna and planetary views, so plenty to keep me busy.

Regarding an equatorial mount, I had pondered this, which is why I came to be looking at the EQ4. I started off with an EQ mount and I have the Tal1 and confess to liking the easy tracking ability of them. However I've found the easiness of using the AZ4 has I think lulled me to a kind of  embarrassed  laziness in terms of  getting back to grips with a more substantial equatorial mount. The idea of a tracking EQ mount  though is understandably a nice one. The crux of this really is that I'm a bit more creaky than I used to be and have a slightly dodgy shoulder so I am trying to avoid anything that constitutes too much of a lump to move around. I have to smile at myself a little here as I bought a pillar extension for the AZ4 and it works well with the ED100, but it has turned a relatively portable set up into a drag 'n' go. That extension feels as if its made of lead. Fortunately its easy to attach/detach rather than carry the whole mount in one.  I am therefore looking for a good well engineered mount that will, with a useful margin,  cope with the ED100 and Mak 127 without being too heavy/bulky.

[JG777]

I have been using an Altair Sabre with a variety of scopes and it performs really well. I used it with 3 and 4 inch refractors, a 6 inch reflector and my C9.25 has even had some time on it. The smaller scopes work fine without any need for counter weights its just a case of getting any scope you use properly balanced and they literally glide to your targets. The C9.25 did need a weight on the other side however. It would attach to the legs of your AZ4 but maybe if you have the aluminium tripod legs it might be worth thinking about steel ones for added sturdiness. I use mine on a Berlebach UNI18 which is wood and it is a very solid set up. Not sure of total weight but certainly a few more kilos than AZ4. Remember though a Sabre does not have slow mo controls if that is something you want. I would never go back to AZ4 after using this set up its quite a significant upgrade. I was never attracted to the Skytee because of user reports about the clamps and others who reported wobbles. Having said that I know there are many very satisfied Skytee users here!

 

[Alfian]

Hi John, thanks for that.  The AZ4 I have has the 1.75" steel leg tripod, although I do have an aluminium EQ3/5 type tripod too so I can mix and match. Slomo controls are handy IF you need them. The AZ4 doesn't have them and only very occasionally have I wished it did. My Tal 1 "Altaz" has the EQ slomo knobs which work well but with my TS80 f7.5 well balanced on it, it moves well enough not to need them as I can move the scope manually where I want it.  So I suppose the answer to that is - not necessarily!

[Alan White]

Ian

I tried Equatorial from AZ4 but did not work well for me, was a super mount though.

I have just upgraded from an AZ4 to a 2" legged CG-5 tripod, that may things far more solid from the 1.75" legs and subsequently bought a Giro Ercole, which is buttery smooth.
Used with my ED100 DS Pro.
Highly reccomend the double upgrades.

I am at one with manual nudge tracking, very easy to do and very intuative to me.

[nightfisher]

Ian, if you can locate a used Giro II that would be a very stable mount on the AZ4 tripod and might not break the bank, i rather like my one, they need to have the scope well balanced to work best

Also as said the EQ5 with drives is a good choice but i understand the hassle of all the heavy parts and of course getting down to polar align, i am at the age i get down to align and wonder if my knee`s will let me get up again

[Moonshane]

I just mark the ground and then I can plonk it down. I have looked through the polar scope once, ages ago but never bother now. For visual close is good enough.

[nightfisher]

3 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

I just mark the ground and then I can plonk it down. I have looked through the polar scope once, ages ago but never bother now. For visual close is good enough.

I have to admit if i am doing visual i dont pay a lot of time to polar align, just sort of nudge the mount till its about pointing at Polaris, if i am doing Luna maging then i try to get it near

[Alfian]

I was never good at  getting down to boogie and now I'm beginning to see that the joke of wondering what else you can do whilst you are tying your shoe laces isn't the joke I thought it was! I feel to have gone around the block a bit with this one from Alt/Az to EQs, even to GOTOs which quite dazzled me for a while. In passing  I was quite surprised that the EQ5 cost very little more than the CG4 and with the thought of maybe adding tracking motors later, it did have some appeal. That said I think I've still come back to the thought of a simple well engineered Alt/Az. I quite like the look of the Sabre but it will probably come down to what happens to pop up S/H over the next few months be it a Giro or Sabre etc. Tripod wise the 1.75" steel legged job on the AZ4 is pretty good and not too heavy (sans extension) so would keep that for a while, but if it came down to selling the AZ4, obviously it would go as part of it. 

Just noticed that some one has snapped up a good looking Ercole on ABS, nice but couldn't have run to it at the moment anyway!

[nightfisher]

Ian, I feel the Giro II would be pretty ideal for you, as you could put the 100ED on one side and the 127 Maksutov on the other, then no need for a counterweight, the movement on these mounts is superbly engineered and buttery smooth with a good load capacity............There, look i am singing the praise of a bit of astro kit 

[Alfian]

Thanks for that recommendation Jules (steady as you go!), yes a Giro would do nicely, just hope something comes up when the readies are ready.

Interesting thought of having both scopes out on the mount together. I'm a bit of binocular fan, and though some people might beg to differ, my IPD  wouldn't be wide enough and collimating the two would be difficult and ........ and  and am I getting this wrong? (!!!) 

Would be interesting to compare the two side by side.

[Stu]

1 hour ago, Alfian said:

my IPD  wouldn't be wide enough and collimating the two would be difficult and ........ and  and am I getting this wrong? (!!!) 

Tee hee! You look a little like this then?

More seriously, I agree that a used Giro II or III would be a good bet, or the Mini Ercole if you could stretch to it, including clamps etc.

[spaceboy]

Agreed with the others. Giro is the way to go. Although saying that I do really like my AZ4 and it does benefit no end from a strip, fettle and re-grease. The odd thing I found with the AZ4 is I would back off the clutches and struggle to track things yet tightening them up a bit  the action was actually smoother.  I know it sounds counter intuitive to tighten something to make it move smoother.  The resistance obviously is a bit stiffer but you end up with more control because of it. Give it a try.

[DRT]

The only mount I have ever regretted selling was my Ercole Mini. I have owned two Giro IIIs, a SkyTee II and still have the Giro Mini and  Ercole but the Ercole Mini is simply the biggest bang for your kilogram out of all of those mounts. It is not cheap, particularly as you have to add about £80-£100 for decent quality saddles, but it is as smooth and stable as its big brother and is a fraction of the weight. 

[Alfian]

Hi Derek, thanks for that info. I had looked at the Giro Mini, and since your post have looked again. I confess I had looked and saw the 5Kg limit per axis and had thought with a 3 -3.5 Kg scope/diagonal + 8x50 finder + hefty EP that it would be getting too close to the limit for comfort. Having unpleasant memories of an under mounted scope I would now always err on the top side.  Having re read the Spec (TS Optics) I now see that the  the 5Kg is purely on the unbalanced mount and with counterweight/scope that goes up to 9Kg  so that should work, so yes, the Giro mini could go on the list.

[Paz]

I usually use an eq5 with tracking from home, then either an az4 or porta 2 if portability or relocating position is an issue.

The az4 is more solid than the porta 2 but the porta 2 has slow motion controls. I find I prefer the porta 2 most of the time.

[Dave In Vermont]

3 hours ago, Paz said:

I usually use an eq5 with tracking from home, then either an az4 or porta 2 if portability or relocating position is an issue.

The az4 is more solid than the porta 2 but the porta 2 has slow motion controls. I find I prefer the porta 2 most of the time.

That's odd - I just bought a Vixen Porta 2 to replace an AZ4 I was using for a Maksutov 150mm. I find the Porta 2 much 'beefier' and capable than the AZ4. Plus the slow-motion cables and I find it a winner.

Only one grudge - the Vixen costs a good deal more, but that's beyond my control.

All the best -

Dave