I can't get on with looking through an eyepice -any advice?

[Stub Mandrel]

This might sound daft, as if I'm not trying hard enough. After all I could be outside right now,having another go... but:

I really want to be an 'observational' astronomer, but I struggle with eyepieces. For this reason imaging really appeals to me, but I love looking at the night sky and I would love to enjoy better views with my own peepers. But over nearly two years trying seriously at this hobby, I have seen virtually nothing  compared to what I have imaged. I can stare at the stars with my naked eyes for hours, or watch things on a screen, but I find using an eyepiece draining.

This has really come home to me tonight, I set up my 76mm frac for visual while the 130P-DS is imaging, and then tried out my shiny new Celestron bins.

I found it absurdly difficult to look through the frac for any length of time. I'm convinced I may have possibly just seen some nebulosity around the Pleiades but the stars were underwhelming tiny dots, I couldn't get focus to pull out the background stars. It's not an expensive scope so perhaps that doesn't help, I was using a stock Skywatcher 25mm eyepiece.

Before now I've managed to see the shadow of moons on Jupiter and the red spot, but although it fascinates me (I can watch Jupiter or Saturn for hours on the computer screen) I can't keep my eye to the eyepiece. It isn't posture - with the 150PL its dead easy to get the eyepiece in a sensible place.

I really, really want to star hop, but the reality of several minutes at the eyepiece is filling me with dread.

I did better with the bins, the Pleiades looked great, a scattering of bright stars against a dust of smaller ones. Earlier I found M31 and M32, and a hint of M33. I found the double cluster. But even after only a minute my neck aches and I can't keep it up - I can tell there's more detail there to explore but I feel totally uncomfortable. It's really frustrating, perhaps buying a sunlounger is the answer? I can't see how to get a comfortable view. I tried on my back on a trampoline this summer. I lasted a bit longer and think I saw the North America Nebula but my eyes don't ever seem happy and I can't get settled on a focus point (I am quite short-sighted and prefer to observe without my glasses, I have VERY slight astigmatism but I'm sure that isn't the issue).

I don't know if better eyepieces would help, I suspect it would be good money after bad. I'm not convinced binoviewers would help. In all honesty I can't say I have ever been good with microscopes or birdwatching either. The subject matter fascinates but...

Does anyone have any advice beyond trying to find a more comfortable viewing position?

Sorry to be a miserable wingeing git.

[brantuk]

The 150p will work a lot better with a half decent eyepiece. I couldn't believe the difference when I first used a Baader zoom in my first scope (which was a 150p). Ever since then I have always preferred eyepieces with a larger lens to peer through - those stock 25mm ep's aren't terribly good. Get a loaner from a friend next time you're out with the scope - I'm sure you'll find it better.

Edited November 1, 2016 by brantuk

[Paul M]

When I was a boy I could spend hours at the eyepiece of my poxy 60mm Tascoesque refractor. Now I'm getting like you. It's hard work at the eyepiece. My eyes seem terribly fussy about eye relief and then floaters dance about like confetti and my back aches and my concentration goes. . . . The weather , don't mention the weather. . . 

There maybe no cure for your unease at the eyepiece. Or maybe a few grands worth of eyepieces is all you need

[barkis]

Craning ones neck for even short periods is quite debilitating, and not something to engage in for long periods.
I understand what you're saying, and the remedies to combat observational fatigue are few.
If you are a good DIY'er, you could construct a Bino. chair, a device I'm sure you are already familiar with, but perhaps not 
ever used one. Support for oneself, and the binoculars, can supply freedom of strain, and stress, and contribute to a repairing of 
mental anguish one can be afflicted with, when battling the, should I, or should I not venture out into the garden, and peruse the heavens 
in a most relaxed way. You Gotta say yes to that. Of course, such relaxation and pleasure could result in one falling asleep, but fear not, neither you,
or the Binoculars will succumb to earths gravitation, and fall to the ground, giving both you and the Bino's a terrible shock.
This ramble may seem flippant, but it is intended to rescue you from your dilemma, and hopefully allow you to return to 
the very thing you really do care about. If you already have a Bino Chair, and still feel the same, then I'm afraid I have failed in my Good Samaritan
Endeavour. 

 

[Aaron F Johnson]

If you are more comfortable with bins you might try a bino viewer but the expence will detour you, celestron makes one for about 148us then the cost of duplicate eye pieces. When visual observing dso I always focus on a star field rather than the object and will refocus at least twice for each, this seems to get me closer to the best view possible and works for me. Your right about the patio lounger it is the best way to use bins that I have tried and beats a tripod hands down for me. I also suggest training both eyes individually in dark adaptation and averted vision as in concert your eyes will work better together for using any type of bino's or viewing naked eye and you will also discover wich eye is better. I discovered as a young man I am near sighted in my left and far sighted in my right and view objects closer in one eye than the other, like having two different mags I equate it to about 20x difference when viewing thrue a scope and I often observe an object with each eye individually. Hang in there visual observing takes much more learning and adapting than most assume...

PS...when training your eyes for dark adaptation and averted vision individually all that is needed is an eyepatch and is acomplished by simply switching the patch each half hour of your session. The technique was taught to me by my father and was common in his day. We put a lot of expectations on telescopes now days and often expect results with just hardware alone...

Edited November 2, 2016 by Aaron F Johnson

[AKB]

I have the same problem, so have switched to EAA... using cameras instead of eyepieces on both finder and main scope.   I find the Starlight Xpress Lodestar and Ultrastar cameras excellent when used with the Starlight  Live software. It's not AP, you don't have to wait hours for a result, and you get to see things you couldn't otherwise see.

 

[Dave In Vermont]

I would suggest you simply stop "trying" and relax. The "trying" sounds stressful and emotionally exhausting. Let it come naturally and freely - when you don't "try" - it will come when you're ready. Without feeling obligated.

Have you considered, just perhaps, a different tact? Such as video-astronomy? You can design and put together a set-up wherein you can be in a nice, warm house and wifi or cable the images your telescope outside is seeing. This is just an idea, mind you - not an 'obligation.' Such a set-up can be quite inexpensive - under the cost of some TeleVue® eyepieces. Or something you sold the kids into slavery for £££££ EXPENSIVE!

Dave

[Stub Mandrel]

After posting I went out for a bit longer. Looked at the Hyades and M42. I think the bins are easier on my eyes than a scope, so perhaps binoviewers would help, but not a cheap solution as every eyepiece needs to double up.

My eyes are changing rapidly again (early-fifties), like they did in my early forties, so I'm putting off new glasses until they settle as they are still fine for driving. I wonder if this doesn't help?  Perhaps when I get new specs and they settle down again things will improve.

The next step for now is a comfy chair that I can lean back in, and perhaps lots of short sessions and build up to where I can start to stare into the detail.

Thanks for all your ideas and support guys.

 

[ronin]

Would have thought that the 25mm would have been a comfortable eyepiece, they are the sort of size that fits nicely for everything. If you can borrow another eyepiece or two then maybe try them but cannot thing of why something else would be easier to use. FoV maybe, are you looking through a "straw".

All stars are underwhelming tiny dots, equally I recall someone saying exactly those words about M31.

Are you not relaxing your eye and so the eye is doing what the focuser should be. Some poeople do that and it takes a bit to get out of. I am sure it happens as at open nights people on my little scope swear blind it is in focus but I may have set it up without my glasses on and as they are -4 the focus has to be wrong for them. Maybe just too polite.

If you take part in a public observing night you will get all sorts, had one 16-17 year old girl admit afterwards she hadn't seen anything, asked why she replied she had closed the eye she was looking through the scope with.

One other thought, are you using your dominent eye ? Years back I did archery and there were many who although left handed and left eye dominent had been taught to shoot right handed. Days when they thought all people should be right handed and in effect made to be. Just a thought that you could fall into this idea of "We will make you right handed!!!"

How long are you looking through the eyepiece for, sounds like a short time. I can only ever manage a short time, sort of 5 to 10 seconds I guess, 20 if I really made myself. After that I pull away, not strain but just me. Have seen people at an eyepiece for several minutes, some on my scopes. Maybe you are similar.

[Paul M]

Something that also helps me to want to linger on an object is if there is something unusual to see. My last long session on my own scope was early this year on Jupiter. There was some multiple shadow transit going on. So rather than pick out stuff in an old favorite your actually looking for something different. 

Comets are a good reason to drag the scope out for me. It can take me some time to start picking out any detail . 

So I guess I'm saying choose your battles

[mikeDnight]

10 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Does anyone have any advice beyond trying to find a more comfortable viewing position?

Sorry to be a miserable wingeing git.

First of all Neil, i don't think you're wingeing! 

Have you a tendency to want to close the eye that you're not using? It's a natural thing to want to do but it can cause eye strain in the eye that you are using. Many visual observers find that eye strain is reduced if they observe with both eyes open even though only one eye is in use. Some find an eye patch can be useful in allowing the unused eye to relax during observing sessions. Another good way to get a more relaxed view is to use a blackout blanket over your head and focuser. If you shroud out as much stray light as possible while still allowing room to breathe, so eyepieces don't mist over, you may find youre better able to concentrate on the view rather than on the discomfort of eye strain. You will also find that your dark adaption will be greatly enhanced. Even when observing bright objects like the Sun and Moon, the lack of distraction while under a black out blanket can genuinely enhance the ease with which more subtle detail can be seen. You'll also feel warmer on those winter nights when youre snug under your blanket and the biting winter breeze won't affect your eyes causing them to tear up and ruin the view.

I use a black dog blanket which I found in a pet shop and cost about £4, but there are purpose made blackout shrouds available.

Binoviewers are great for lunar and planetary observing and you don't need expensive eyepieces. Simple plossles or Orthoscopics are ideal, so a cheaper end BV and a couple of ortho's can be bought for around the same price as one high end eyepiece, and once they are tuned to your eyes they can be a relaxing way to observe.

Mike 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, ronin said:

I can only ever manage a short time, sort of 5 to 10 seconds I guess, 20 if I really made myself.

Phew I'm glad I'm not the only one! I'm 4.5 diopter too, and I think you might be right about my eye trying to do the focusing rather than the scope - that's possibly why I keep tweaking it and am never comfortable. Next time I will try and zero in on a good focus an leave it alone!

I will also try an eye patch - I'm sure that could be part of the problem for the scope at least.

[Northern Soul man]

9 hours ago, Dave In Vermont said:

I would suggest you simply stop "trying" a. nd relax. The "trying" sounds stressful and emotionally exhausting. Let it come naturally and freely - when you don't "try" - it will come when you're ready. Without feeling obligated.

Have you considered, just perhaps, a different tact? Such a. s video-astronomy? You can design and put together a set-up wherein you can be in a nice, warm house and wifi or cable the images your telescope outside is seeing. This is just an idea, mind you - not an 'obligation.' Such a set-up can be quite inexpensive - under the cost of some TeleVue® eyepieces. Or something you sold the kids into slavery for £££££ EXPENSIVE!

Dave

Hi Stub, great advice here, I also think that its frustration creeping in here mate, not sure what aperture your using an how good your skies are but definitely stick with it, I find that Goto under my light polluted skies has helped me a great deal, Ive settled on low power observing an have left the really faint stuff alone, just concentrating on low power views keeping around x70 ish and spending time on getting comfortable at the EP, at F10 I find the Hyp aspherics  spending a lot of time in the scope, I know that the cpc 1100 has aperture, but I tend to do the same with my 127 Mak, just concentrate on the overall view of each object, yes I know at lower focal lengths, the EP aberrations are going to be on your mind and like all of us we all want the green and black, but with the lower powers I'm using, I can concentrate on the centre field and just enjoy the views without worrying about the great delights views from a really dark location can give me, living under the light polluted skies of the Midlands has never held me back and with a little perseverance and some nice low power views its still opened up the night sky for me. With the EP's I have I just don't worry about how much better the views would be using premium ones, but just enjoy what I have.

Give the low powers a go as if you were just starting out again and just go for the bright stuff, Ive just forgot how many times I just keep re - visiting old favourites - its just what I'll be doing next time out!!

Try not to get too discouraged Stub and give the Messiers a run for their money.

All the best mate.   Paul.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Northern Soul man
nothing typed

[leo82]

First of all I still think i'm fairly new to astronomy. However, the first thing I learnt was how to be comfortable at the eyepiece. I nearly jacked it all in.

I probably had the same problem as you. Eye strain and being uncomfortable in general.

My left eye is my dominant eye so I use it at the eyepiece. I too wear glasses and started by removing them to be comfortable. I closed my right eye so I could see with my left eye open.

This was my downfall, I would get horrible eye strain and I didn't see much and wondered whether it was all worth it.

Now I take my scope outside along with my bins and put my bits and bobs on the table next to my viewing area, go inside make a cuppa then come back out and scan the sky with my bins and just relax for a while, letting my scope and I adjust to the temperature and darkness. I still use my left eye at the eyepiece but keep my right eye open, I just cover it with my right hand (I must get an eye patch). I wear my glasses at the eyepiece too, this takes a few times to feel normal, I find a fleecy blanket over my head helps take out the stray light and reduce the reflections from the glasses.

I feel a lot more comfortable now being able to look through the eyepiece for long periods without my eyes aching.

I cant comment on bino viewers as I haven't used any but have thought about buying some.

If i'm doing a bino session I get my carp fishing chair out and kick back and relax under the stars. These kind of chairs are the best, as comfortable as a sofa and easily recline into the perfect position just by turning a couple of nobs. The only problem is trying not to fall asleep!

Hope this may help in any way.

[Filroden]

On 11/1/2016 at 23:11, Stub Mandrel said:

I really want to be an 'observational' astronomer, but I struggle with eyepieces.

 

On 11/1/2016 at 23:11, Stub Mandrel said:

I would love to enjoy better views with my own peepers.

 

On 11/1/2016 at 23:11, Stub Mandrel said:

Does anyone have any advice beyond trying to find a more comfortable viewing position?

Slightly left-field, but you've given me an idea. I wonder if there is a way to develop video astronomy (so fast image capture using a camera to replace the eye) but then project the resulting image into a VR device (Occulus Rift, Vive, etc), so you see the result with your eyes in a more "observational" way?? Set up right, you could "see" the scope within the image so you could move it and still get that star hoping feeling.

[Charic]

On 11/2/2016 at 08:12, Stub Mandrel said:

I'm putting off new glasses..............

I considered this sometime back before the telescope arrived, bad move, said the optician!
I would consider a re-test, and if there really is no change,  you can discount new glasses.

If the eyes are ok, then your oculars require consideration. Both eyes will always offer the best views, even with deficiencies as one eye will help the other, that's why  binoculars will work well.
Pairing oculars for binoviewers could be expensive,  as reported. 
I have noted this week how sharper my left eye is in comparison to my right dominant eye, so next time I get a chance to go out, I`ll try using the left eye, see if there's a difference. I have to wear glasses for driving, and if/when I look at the night sky with glasses on, I can see the Stars, but without glasses, its worse, yet I  don't wear the glasses at the scope, they just get in the way, plus vari-focals may not have been the best option at the scope, so I'm back using single vision.

This season, I just want to eek out some more details on Jupiter with the same setup, so less glass in my Plössl's ,  wider field in my Delos, but overall,  I feel that I have decent eye relief and field of view with the optics I have, I just need to see some more detail. If all else fails this season, regards the detail, maybe I need a bigger scope, but not willing to consider giving in just yet. 

Hopefully you will find a solution that works best.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Charic

[Timebandit]

On 01/11/2016 at 23:11, Stub Mandrel said:

This might sound daft, as if I'm not trying hard enough. After all I could be outside right now,having another go... but:

I really want to be an 'observational' astronomer, but I struggle with eyepieces. For this reason imaging really appeals to me, but I love looking at the night sky and I would love to enjoy better views with my own peepers. But over nearly two years trying seriously at this hobby, I have seen virtually nothing  compared to what I have imaged. I can stare at the stars with my naked eyes for hours, or watch things on a screen, but I find using an eyepiece draining.

This has really come home to me tonight, I set up my 76mm frac for visual while the 130P-DS is imaging, and then tried out my shiny new Celestron bins.

I found it absurdly difficult to look through the frac for any length of time. I'm convinced I may have possibly just seen some nebulosity around the Pleiades but the stars were underwhelming tiny dots, I couldn't get focus to pull out the background stars. It's not an expensive scope so perhaps that doesn't help, I was using a stock Skywatcher 25mm eyepiece.

Before now I've managed to see the shadow of moons on Jupiter and the red spot, but although it fascinates me (I can watch Jupiter or Saturn for hours on the computer screen) I can't keep my eye to the eyepiece. It isn't posture - with the 150PL its dead easy to get the eyepiece in a sensible place.

I really, really want to star hop, but the reality of several minutes at the eyepiece is filling me with dread.

I did better with the bins, the Pleiades looked great, a scattering of bright stars against a dust of smaller ones. Earlier I found M31 and M32, and a hint of M33. I found the double cluster. But even after only a minute my neck aches and I can't keep it up - I can tell there's more detail there to explore but I feel totally uncomfortable. It's really frustrating, perhaps buying a sunlounger is the answer? I can't see how to get a comfortable view. I tried on my back on a trampoline this summer. I lasted a bit longer and think I saw the North America Nebula but my eyes don't ever seem happy and I can't get settled on a focus point (I am quite short-sighted and prefer to observe without my glasses, I have VERY slight astigmatism but I'm sure that isn't the issue).

I don't know if better eyepieces would help, I suspect it would be good money after bad. I'm not convinced binoviewers would help. In all honesty I can't say I have ever been good with microscopes or birdwatching either. The subject matter fascinates but...

Does anyone have any advice beyond trying to find a more comfortable viewing position?

Sorry to be a miserable wingeing git.

 

 

From what you say I think you have two choices. Either try and borrow a wide view eyepiece, maybe a 82d and 100d fov eyepieces and see if this relaxes your eye , compared to your existing eyepiece. I do not mind using Orthos in my refractor around 40d fov , but it is far more relaxing and easier to use a 82d fov eyepiece and I can stay at the scope longer, so this may be the answer or help.

The other way you have already seen that works binoculars, so maybe go down a high power,large aperture pair of binoculars on a mount. But on the same wavelength of this is binoviewing. I have a refractor and like Cyclops . But for a far more relaxed approach and a way I can stay at the eyepiece much longer is with Binoviewers. This also give you the benefit of a 3D like effect some people compare it to. But if using two eye's gives you results that you are happy with and let's you enjoy the hobby then Binoviewers could be a way to have the benefit of two eye views, but with the benefit of being able to change magnification to suit your target and seeing conditions. My Binoviewers did not cost a fortune, I got mine second hand off a member on this site . And use a couple of second hand plossl and Orthos. You seem to have found that two eyes work for you so go down this route IMO in one form or another 

As the best way to observe when I am using my refractor then I always sit down. This hobby is supposed to be all about the calming ,relaxing views that can be be achieved, therefore a nice relaxing chair adds to the relaxing situation and therefore you are more likely to observe longer.

I hope the above helps☺   

[Keltoi]

58 minutes ago, Filroden said:

 

 

Slightly left-field, but you've given me an idea. I wonder if there is a way to develop video astronomy (so fast image capture using a camera to replace the eye) but then project the resulting image into a VR device (Occulus Rift, Vive, etc), so you see the result with your eyes in a more "observational" way?? Set up right, you could "see" the scope within the image so you could move it and still get that star hoping feeling.

mobile phone and VR headset (eyeset?)  sounds like it would actually be quiet an amazing way to do astronomy  and not overly difficult to implement id think. 

[Stub Mandrel]

I think I will try a patch first.

My eyes have changed a lot over the last year or so. I find myself making more mistakes on the keyboard (OK it's seriously badly out of focus...) and struggling to read small characters on the screen that used to be easy. I notice that when outside my right eye (the stronger) is less focused than the left, but together or in bright light things are OK for distance.

I tried the bins a few nights ago and tried to follow the advice not to keep twiddling the focus, and I think it helped a little bit. I suspect that with bins its mostly a physical comfort issue, but with the scope it's a side effect of closing my left eye. Both of these made worse by the fact that after a day of poorly focused computer work my eyes are tired and cross with me :-(

I think the new glasses are my priority, really. They will improve my day to day life as well as my astronomy.

[michaelmorris]

A comfortable observing position is a must. Get yourself an observing chair, you will be amazed at the difference it makes.

Are you a member of a local astronomical society? Many societies run observing sessions. This would be an ideal opportunity to see if a different eyepiece would make a significant difference.