Explore Scientifics 12" dob

[Tiny Small]

Lets hope it performs well out in the field as, at the end of the day. that's what really matters

[baggywrinkle]

A real pity about the QC, glad to hear you are reporting it back, a less prepared and handy person would be stumped.

[Moonshane]

don't get me wrong, I agree that it should be right before it goes out but e.g. getting paint out of threads is almost certainly only done in a cost effective way by hand which takes time and money although in China I expect these costs are less than some places of course.  personally I think they have priced this incorrectly and predict a price rise. it's perhaps £100 less than the SW flextube, has what looks like a better focuser, a better quality structure and true transportability (as well as 'trend factor' being a bit different). Even at £1000 I think it's a decent bargain but then they'd need to ensure these issues are not common.

[Tiny Small]

Yeah I think that pretty much nails it. I also think it's priced wrong, hence corner cutting to meet the price.

[John]

I hope it's performance under the stars makes these niggles fade away Tom 

[Cjg]

With over 500 views to this thread in one day, looks like the supplier could have struck gold with the product if they managed to sort the glitches. Did I see somewhere on the ES website that in return for a detailed review / report after 3 months there was scope to get a voucher for ££'s back?

I hope Tom (Earth Titan) gets the time and clear skies to get out there and put his new scope to good use. 

Chris

[Ptarmigan]

Tom said
>I had to recut most of the threads for the fixing screws, as they hadn't been fully tapped to depth. Good job I had an M6 tap and wrench to hand, otherwise it would have been very frustrating.

I would have been a lot more than frustrated if I had had to go out and buy an M6 tap
( I could have found a a BA tap, even Whit and BSF !! )

Can I ask did you have to do this to get it assembled so that it would work, ie. fit together ?
Or was this for cosmetic/ smooth working ?

"Fully tapped to depth" sounds to me like necessary, not cosmetic ??

The reason I ask is that I may have misread something because Moonshane has said
> "that I have not almost instantly started to modify to make it work smoothly / better for me. "
and
> "e.g. getting paint out of threads "
Sounds to me (the way I read Tom) like it was a lot more serious than paint and smooth working !

Am I wrong to think that ES should at least have assembled the bits first ?
There must be a lot of people like me watching with interest - and thinking of the future.
It would be a shame if ES have shot themselves in an effort to get this thing delivered to Tom quickly !
 

[jetstream]

Is it possible that some companies use the consumer to do their research and development?It seems like this scope had a of couple minor issues with it but it still is an excellent price for what looks like an excellent telescope.Eagerly waiting first light!

[earth titan]

Tom said

>I had to recut most of the threads for the fixing screws, as they hadn't been fully tapped to depth. Good job I had an M6 tap and wrench to hand, otherwise it would have been very frustrating.

I would have been a lot more than frustrated if I had had to go out and buy an M6 tap

( I could have found a a BA tap, even Whit and BSF !! )

Can I ask did you have to do this to get it assembled so that it would work, ie. fit together ?

Or was this for cosmetic/ smooth working ?

"Fully tapped to depth" sounds to me like necessary, not cosmetic ??

The reason I ask is that I may have misread something because Moonshane has said

> "that I have not almost instantly started to modify to make it work smoothly / better for me. "

and

> "e.g. getting paint out of threads "

Sounds to me (the way I read Tom) like it was a lot more serious than paint and smooth working !

Am I wrong to think that ES should at least have assembled the bits first ?

There must be a lot of people like me watching with interest - and thinking of the future.

It would be a shame if ES have shot themselves in an effort to get this thing delivered to Tom quickly !

More serious than paint - they hadn't been tapped fully and as a result, it wouldn't assemble. Luckily I have a full range of taps - so not a problem for me.

Could have been sent out in a rush, as I had been pestering them for a delivery. Rest assured, I will send them a run down of the errors.

[Moonshane]

sorry my bad for confusing the issue slightly by misunderstanding the original point re the threads. the real situation is not good then .....

[Ptarmigan]

Thanks for the clarification guys, I thort for a mo. I had consumed too much amber nectar at this time of night to be fully comprehending !

So, yes, a bit disturbing to say the least.

One of these days I must get myself a set of taps and dies in this new style

btw did you note my little attempt at irony > "in an effort to get this thing delivered to Tom quickly !"

[Tiny Small]

Thanks for the clarification guys, I thort for a mo. I had consumed too much amber nectar at this time of night to be fully comprehending !

So, yes, a bit disturbing to say the least.

One of these days I must get myself a set of taps and dies in this new style

btw did you note my little attempt at irony > "in an effort to get this thing delivered to Tom quickly !"

Yes I did notice. And I too only have imperial taps.

[Beulah]

Hmmm, I cannot afford to spend £750 and shrug off all those quality issues - I understand you took a punt on getting it from overseas at a risk.

Might be a good idea to contact Explore Scientific with the issues you mentioned and explain that you have been providing online reviews for people. EDIT: I see that you are already planning to contact them

Consider yourself an R&D man.  

[Pig]

Tom,

Its a great looking scope and as you said it is very portable and feels pretty robust.

I would like to take you up your offer and pop over for a quick look through it as I am very interested in getting one also.

As annoying and wrong as it is the "time to market"  seems to be more important to the OEM in some instances and the customer does end up being part of the development cycle (the Starsence accessory by Celestron springs to mind here and they are not a little company).

Thank you for the honesty in your report as it will help any future buyers.

[vlebo]

As a self confessed ocd type i do find it a bit disturbing that these issues are present on a new product. i would have thought that the first few to go out would have been tried and tested vigorously regardless of cost so as not to bring on negative reviews especially seeing as ES must know the anticipation , by us , to read positive reviews of this new scope.

[emadmoussa]

Humm...I can't help but feel you were given a display prototype since ES failed to get all the orders on time??

[baggywrinkle]

I am not defending the poor QC but as Earth Titan has pointed out the price is still OK.

Having lived in China for 10 years then moving back while I mark time for my  return to the UK I know how China QC can  but often cannot work.

Apart from the mirror which really the precision part of the whole assmebly the components will have been manufactured in various factories often by people that don't know what they are actually making. To them is is a set of tubes, or an aluminium box which gets spray painted etc etc.

Those workers doing the metal bashing will be paid quite low wages probably <£300/month, they have no share in the company profits it is just a job. That is why the prices are low.

However if reports are made on manufacturing defects then there is a reasonable (but not 100%) chance that the issues like threads depth and finish might get addressed but it will take time.

ES must be brought into the equation to address this.

Many big companies who have moved manufacturing to China have literally found that is does come at a cost. The attitude to QC is certainly not like that in Japan and Korea.

[lemonysam]

Those sound like classic early adopter QC woes to be honest. If I had a pound for every new bike frame I've seen with thread tapping and paint issues I'd have... erm... well only about a tenner but you get the point. I hope they learn quickly and more importantly I hope the performance makes up for the niggles.

[YKSE]

Humm...I can't help but feel you were given a display prototype since ES failed to get all the orders on time??

I'm not so sure about that. A display prototype should be able to be assembled without problem.

[emadmoussa]

mm...I was thinking more of the peeled off paint and so...but probably no, prototypes should assemble OK.

[SnakeyJ]

I'll still buy one, provided the optics perform acceptably in Tom's (much anticipated) first light.    The threads and paint issues are relatively minor concerns and easily addressed (though I accept this is poor QC), the variation of focuser from Crayford to RP sounds like an improvement to me.     The main points are its light, rigid, easily assembled and breaks down to a very small size - A 12" travel dob for under £ 750 certainly gets my vote, even if it still needs a little fettling.

Out of interest the GSO 12" F5 mirror set is listed at 695 Euros @ TS!

[Naemeth]

To me the threads issue would be a big deal - I don't have the ability to tap threads so if I had ordered one I'd be stuck with a scope I couldn't assemble - which is unacceptable to me. Goods sold should always be fit for purpose .

I need to see if the QC situation improves before I even think about getting one, sorry ES.

[GuillermoBarrancos]

I'll still buy one, provided the optics perform acceptably in Tom's (much anticipated) first light.    The threads and paint issues are relatively minor concerns and easily addressed (though I accept this is poor QC), the variation of focuser from Crayford to RP sounds like an improvement to me.     The main points are its light, rigid, easily assembled and breaks down to a very small size - A 12" travel dob for under £ 750 certainly gets my vote, even if it still needs a little fettling.

Out of interest the GSO 12" F5 mirror set is listed at 695 Euros @ TS!

Buying components seperately is always more expensive. So no suprise there.

Also this ES 12inch Dob comes without a single accessory!  It´s pure barebones! So if it´s the first scope you buy, you will have to add additional costs of decent quality EP´s, colimation tool, etc into it.

[SnakeyJ]

Buying components seperately is always more expensive. So no suprise there.

Also this ES 12inch Dob comes without a single accessory!  It´s pure barebones! So if it´s the first scope you buy, you will have to add additional costs of decent quality EP´s, colimation tool, etc into it.

Accepted - It would be nice to see all beginners scopes supplied with a couple of EPs and basic cheshire.   Though I wouldn't really see this as a first scope and see no sense in upping the price to include a couple of low end EPs!   I'm already well supplied with mediocre glass, which is only retained in the event I sell one of my scopes.

Though if ES would like to bundle a 24mm 82deg, I'm sure I would happily part with another 150 euros 

It would also be a nice token if they sent some nice glass to Tom as an apology for the delay and poor QC!

[Ptarmigan]

Well I've now had a chance to assemble and take  few more pictures and I'm ready to give a run down on my initial thoughts.

Thanks for all the info/review, now all we have to do is organise some clear sky for you

Tom said > "If it was a product shipped from the UK, I would send it back but as I have to pay for any return shipping (and then argue about a refund after the event)"

Sounds to me like they will need a UK agent to handle the QA and returns bit !

I think for me this must be the limiter,

ah well back to thinking that the NexStar 8SE will be my portable jobbie, for now.

Some of my other thoughts whilst reading Tom's excellent report :-

>"The paint is wafer thin and has flaked off in a couple of places"

Hand painted ?

>"A better finder is a must."

Gosh, how often do we hear that !

Makes one wonder why manufs. bother to fit anything at all in that department,

or at least offer some options.