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Star Clusters - Am I missing something? Or just dont get it....

TenBears

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TenBears

TenBears

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You don't find this at all striking?

Appreciate all the comments.  Read through them all.  :)

Joves, I suppose I over-emphasized about clusters.  And yes, I most certainly DO!

......

OK, so I had a pretty good night out tonight.  Not too cold, and pretty clear - except for all the neighbors spot lights aimed directly at my house. :(

I got a good 3 hours of laying on my back with my binos tonight.  I could not manage to even find Lacerta, must less NGC 7243.  Too much light.

I am going to have to find a better place to use my binos with.  I tried really hard to find this, but I'm not giving up.

If this guy feels a cluster of 8 stars is worth writing about in a book, I want to see them. :)

Perhaps I am just casting judgment too fast.

All I know right now is, I hate my neighbors and their lights they think they need to leave on 24/7.

Oh, and my 12" dob will be here Tuesday.  Can't wait for that!

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Joves

Joves

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TenBears, those clusters will come to life in your 12" dob!! :)

Your original post made a heap of sense, by the way... Clusters sound a lot less exciting than they look! I must admit, there are some open clusters that really don't strike me any more than looking at a regular section of the sky... Just a sneaking suspicion, but I reckon you're gonna come to LOVE globulars when you have your new scope!! ;)

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Special K

Special K

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Bearing in mind the author is comparing two relatively obscure clusters I can see why he/she would use 'more striking' to describe the humble NGC7243 over the other object. There is something very subjective about astronomy and I think because clusters are so varied that they will subjectively appeal to some more than others. Perhaps the shape of the asterism strikes the authors fancy?! Though not much, I'm always fascinated by the asterism of The Minnow in Auriga.

On top of the Pantheon of comments extolling the beauties of clusters, I'll just add that the diversity of things we can look at is a beauty in itself. And sometimes looking at a remote, humble cluster of stars in our universe is a very entertaining way to spend some time, knowing that they inhabit the same space that their more famous cousins live in. I say to myself "cool" when I look at these remote parts and sometimes get as much pleasure as out of the "wows" when I see something like The Beehive.

You're going to love that scope! Enjoy clear skies

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Macavity

Macavity

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To me, it's not just the "visual thing", but engaging the imagination? Avoiding umbrage-takers: As a Physicist turned Programmer,  the ability to track down bugs in LARGE programs, VAST arrays of electronics <sigh> depends significantly on imagination - "intuition" (guesswork even)! Globulars can be a tad "samey" though? lol. For me, clusters (doubles!) provide evidence of a more dynamic universe - Gravity at work, stellar longevity, spectral classes etc. It is an interesting thought-experiment to imagine yourself inside a "cluster" too - What would you SEE on a nightly basis? Not sure I'd want a cohort of "Mag -12" stars in my (never) darking skies! But might be quite interesting... :p

From the practical side, clusters are *significantly* visible in my real-time VIDEO astronomy setup. ;)

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earth titan

earth titan

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Have to say that globular clusters are perhaps my favourite DSO. But they do need a clear dark sky and patience to really do them justice.

From a dark sky site, with patience, you can start to resolve stars down to the core.

I always wonder what it must be like to be on the surface of a planet in the core of a globular cluster and look up on a clear night! Someones possibly going to come and tell me that due to the 'relative' distances between stars, it won't look too different to Earth, but I can dream  :grin:

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Macavity

Macavity

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I like clusters, but then, I don't get why people like looking at galaxies. Even in a large scope they are just a faint fuzzy blob ;)

Heheh. But not "getting it" seems to be the norm... And "Each to his own", THE phrase of our time? 

Does anyone totally mean the later? [teasing] Just <wryly> unsure why people who "don't get" (don't

like?) what others do, insist on telling us. As Mr. Spock might indeed say: "Illogical, Captain"?  :D

Not antagonistic, but intrigued. I assume many (most) parents here "share" childrens interests.

No inability to "get it" - No sell-out! Hey, I struggled (positively) with a GF's passion for Ballet...  :p

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brantuk

brantuk

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"galaxies. Even in a large scope they are just a faint fuzzy blob"

Errmmm.... That is illogical Spock - have you ever seen Andromeda in a 20"+ dob - it's awesome - dust lanes, core, sparkly stars throughout..... you'll soon change your mind if you get chance to have a look. :)

Similarly - globular clusters take on a whole new meaning in a big aperture scope - you can start actually resolving stars towards the core and it's sometimes mind blowing seeing how many there are. Take a look at the aperture comparison towards the bottom of this page - it's a different world:

http://www.obsessiontelescopes.com/

Sometimes - a faint open cluster that you can only just see can be fascinating - especially when you start measuring distances and realise how deep into space you're looking - gazillions of light years away. :)

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swamp thing

swamp thing

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have you ever seen Andromeda in a 20"+ dob - it's awesome - dust lanes, core, sparkly stars throughout

It is a fine sight but "sparkly stars throughout"? I would think you need a scope nearer 30" to see stars actually inside the galaxy (unless one goes nova). There are about a dozen foreground stars that are part of our own Milky Way that one can see.

I'll have a look through my 20" but I'm doubtful I can see actual stars within andromeda itself.

Maybe someone with one of "The big ones" (30 inchers) will comment. :)

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TenBears

TenBears

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Thanks for all the great advice and comments.

I think for now I am going to limit myself to finding things, I can actually find.  :)   Until I learn the sky better.

Tonight I am going to hunt down Uranus with my binos...  and PLEASE keep the snotty comments to yourself!! :grin:

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brantuk

brantuk

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"It is a fine sight but "sparkly stars throughout"?

You're correct Steve - it's the foreground stars I saw and the star fields through and behind it - not the ones actually within the galaxy. Everything's just so much more detailed and impressive in the big dobs. :)

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Skylook123

Skylook123

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Dropping in on this thread brings many points to mind, many of which could be chapters in a (not too serious but somewhat helpful, perhaps) introduction to observing.

I have been observing the night sky with optical instruments for over 20 years, a goodly portion in public outreach.  Yet I still consider myself a newcomer to observing any time I set up alongside some of my fellow observers.  And the difference is phraseology mentioned throughout the thread, which I use at my school events as "looking" versus "seeing."  And a third stage in the process is "learning."  When one discovers the difference, the sky is never the same.  I do about 10 events each month on average; wonderful to live in an area with 275 clear nights each year, on average, with humidity for much of it below 20%.  Plus two or three "personal" nights.  The biggest challenge I find in public outreach is for the first time observer to go from looking, to seeing.  I've been looking at the moon in binoculars and telescopes up to 36" in aperture, and yet every time I "look" at the moon, I "see" more.  My experience in aiding new astronomers in observing has been that one major factor that discourages new observers is that the get a handle on looking "at" things, and not "seeing" things.  Some never get the hang of it; that's what makes our adventure an avocation.

If you walk into a meeting room of senior citizens, frankly, they all look similar until someone tells you that "that gentleman over there was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross in WWII", or "that lady over there was an Olympic athlete forty years ago."  All of a sudden, you are "seeing" them.  It might be similar with astronomy and observing.  What makes an object, or class of object, stand out to us from the background?  Perhaps it is investing some time in learning a bit about the class of object, and then perhaps a particular object.  Looking versus seeing.

Personally, I had no favorites in my first five to ten years because I was still learning, and like most of the visitors to my scope, if it looked striking, or was an attention grabber, then it was a good thing to see.  The rest, just mice in the forest while I was hunting elk.  But I found my interest more and more leaning toward interacting galaxies; don't know why, just fascinated me.  Then, about ten years ago, my outreach load  started to increase tremendously, and I needed to be able to teach basics about all sorts of targets.  That's when clusters, both open (or galactic) and globular, started to attract my interest.  That an open cluster is a group of siblings, all formed nearly at the same time from the same gas cloud.  Now there was context to the image.  Not only do open clusters seem to belong together, they do!  They have an age, and a distance, and, depending on each star's mass, a life span.  So when I show visitors the Owl Cluster, NGC457, they are impressed that it does look like an Owl spreading its wings, when you also them that they are not random, that they are each approximately 22 million years old, far away at 9000 light years but quite bright which means that the major elements only have about 100 million more years to live before going supernova, all of a sudden the visitors "see" the cluster.  Similar reaction to the Hyades, the Pleiades; and the Big Dipper (the inner five stars, other than Dubhe and Alkaid, are an open cluster called the Ursa Major Moving Group), when you attach context to the object, it becomes seen, not just looked at.

Similar concept with globular clusters.  On their own, just looking at them, impressive curiosities often with hundreds of thousands of stars in a tight ball.  Throw in the information that although they are in highly elliptical orbits around the core of the galaxy, and are much older than the Milky Way, and add in the recent discovery that there are supermassive black holes at the cores of the globs, that gives the clue that these are the cores of galaxies older than the Milky Way, whose material other than the cores was subsumed by the Milky Way with its formation.  By sight, 90% are pretty boring little dandelion heads, but those are the cores of old galaxies!  Adds something to the experience.  Same with double stars, which may or may not show color in the members.  The clever dobsonian owner shows off Polaris so constant readjustment is not necessary, but Polaris A1 and A2 make a pretty bright "star" too close to split, and there is bluish-purple Polaris B.  And it may be the hottest of the three, because much of its energy is in the ultraviolet.  Many, many multi-star combinations have similar unique stories about them.  Learn their stories, they become seen, not just looked at.

A few galaxies are show pieces, like Andromeda, The Whirlpool, The Sombrero, M82 (the highly active elliptical sometimes called Bode's Nebula), and the rest are grey globs.  But The Mice, The Antennae, The Eyes, especially in larger apertures, now have stories to tell.  And for those fortunate to have larger apertures at hand, center up on M84 and M86 and in good seeing and transparency at moderate power, nearly a dozen galaxies are hanging about. And move the scope up Markarian's chain, and in my 18" a waterfall of galaxies flows through.  Other than The Eyes at the bottom off the field, just a bunch of gray smudges.  But put them in context, look for the detail, and the you see a part of the Virgo cluster.  And why in a line?  Might be the original web of dark matter forming the skeleton to hang the galaxies onto. 

Looking, seeing, learning, most of us don't do it nearly well enough.  Has to "look pretty".  Looking pretty is OK, it got many of us started, but you run out of looking pretty after a while,  "Seeing" is intangible, and we each have our own doorways to open.

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cotterless45

cotterless45

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Jim,thankyou for such a lovely detailed and well thought out post.

The pleasure of this pastime , to me, is being able to read and chat about targets in the visible Universe, then to get out and understand what you're seeing. This adds to the interest of showing and giving a bit of background to others.

Each has it's own story, from the simple binary stars to the chains of galaxies. There's the whole story of young star / nebula birth through to planetary nebulae .All are worth spending time over.

Enough , just waiting for the wind to stop howling and hopefully an early morning break in the clouds,

Nick.

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Joves

Joves

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Heheh. But not "getting it" seems to be the norm... And "Each to his own", THE phrase of our time? 

Does anyone totally mean the later? [teasing] Just <wryly> unsure why people who "don't get" (don't

like?) what others do, insist on telling us. As Mr. Spock might indeed say: "Illogical, Captain"?  :D

Not antagonistic, but intrigued. I assume many (most) parents here "share" childrens interests.

No inability to "get it" - No sell-out! Hey, I struggled (positively) with a GF's passion for Ballet...  :p

The fact that you even tried to get on with the ballet business shows you're a lot more tolerant than most!! ;)

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