ZWO Seestar 50

[paulastro]

23 minutes ago, Elp said:

Here's a question. If the SS as it is cost 1000 would it be so popular? The low cost of entry is one of its main selling points, and possibly a previous barrier to those who'd like to image but hadn't taken the steps.

I wouldn't have bought mine if it had been £1,000.  Firstly because I wasn't 100% certain if if it would be as good as all the hype (it turned out to be better than I expected!), and secondly I would have been reluctant to pay a grand for an electronic device which may soon be superceeded by a better and cheaper version.

As it turned out, the S50 could be all I ever want in terms of imaging, unless they bring out a clearly superior model for around the same price as the S50.  Even then, I may not be tempted. 

So in my case, Eds view that it would be best to have waited is not true!

 

Edited March 26 by paulastro
Typo

[Elp]

This is something ZWO have gauged very carefully and set the price accordingly. Ed mentioned the larger players have been waiting, I don't think they have. Zwo a relatively new company (as are other camera manufacturers) have pioneered to bring AP to more people, cameras, asiair, hd mounts, scopes and now the SS. The "big" players seem to be resting on their laurels and now are playing catch up suddenly realising there's a demand for these products. I don't think a Celestron 4000 product will wipe the floor with the SS (to paraphrase Ed), you'd have to be a bit insane to buy the Origin when you can put together a RASA8 setup for likely slightly less money, especially if you look to source some items used. This is one of the USPs of the SS, it may have it's flaws, but it's 500, you can easily spend more than that on one item for an AP, even a singular item for a visual setup, this does more at the right price (well it'd be better if it were cheaper but you can't win them all).

[LaurenceT]

48 minutes ago, 900SL said:

I couldn't agree more with Ed Tings review of the Seestar. I have yet to see a half decent image, it's a one trick pony and you can't 'grow' with it. 

Granted, it does most everything for you at a rock bottom price, but I find it too restrictive, too noisy and it will gather dust and represent 500 quid lost if you decide to go further with astro imaging. Ed was spot on the nail in my opinion. It's the Polaroid camera of astro

I don't agree with your analysis, it's not a one trick pony as it can make images of many (but not all) different objects, it also doubles as a simple approach to EAA and outreach. Half decent images? Most of the images I have seen are exactly that, only half decent by the standards of general astrophotography but they are images nonetheless.

A simple analogy would be my decades long hobby of bird photography. I would hope that the images I have taken are the result of good fieldcraft, knowledge of my subject and the ability to use the instruments I have available. I would be proud to present those images for the highest scrutiny. On the other hand if I am out and not specifically doing bird photography I may see something avian that interests me and I take a quick shot either with the camera I have or indeed a phone camera.. I class those as record shots and would present them as such. I would think that all of the Seestar images I have seen are presented as that, they are presented as "an image of X taken on my Seestar" just as I would present a record shot of a bird to other serious bird photographers.

They are also not "Polaroids" because they give people the opportunity to enhance the images, something that is not given to users of Polaroid cameras.

 

 

[Elp]

I think if you spend the hours imaging one target and apply the AP workflow you'll definitely get "excellent" images out of it.

[900SL]

29 minutes ago, LaurenceT said:

I don't agree with your analysis, it's not a one trick pony as it can make images of many (but not all) different objects, it also doubles as a simple approach to EAA and outreach. Half decent images? Most of the images I have seen are exactly that, only half decent by the standards of general astrophotography but they are images nonetheless.

A simple analogy would be my decades long hobby of bird photography. I would hope that the images I have taken are the result of good fieldcraft, knowledge of my subject and the ability to use the instruments I have available. I would be proud to present those images for the highest scrutiny. On the other hand if I am out and not specifically doing bird photography I may see something avian that interests me and I take a quick shot either with the camera I have or indeed a phone camera.. I class those as record shots and would present them as such. I would think that all of the Seestar images I have seen are presented as that, they are presented as "an image of X taken on my Seestar" just as I would present a record shot of a bird to other serious bird photographers.

They are also not "Polaroids" because they give people the opportunity to enhance the images, something that is not given to users of Polaroid cameras.

 

 

I'm not getting into a debate about this, as we have clearly different opinions, but it is a one trick pony, with a fixed 2 mp sensor, fixed lens, limitations on exposure, field rotation etc.

This may appeal to a novice imager who just wants a point and shoot solution. It has zero appeal to me, as somebody who has done his apprenticeship. And I totally understand why Ed Ting wasn't a fan boy

 

   

 

Edited March 26 by 900SL

[tomato]

I was a bit dismissive of smart imaging scopes when they first came on the market, from the point of view of price vs image quality, but at £500 the Seestar obliterates that argument.
 It’s a great introduction into imaging and it looks like quite a few previously visual only folks have purchased one to dip a toe in the imaging pool.

Sure, it has its limitations if you want to progress further, but I don’t really think it is designed with that in mind.

As for the “wait for the technology to mature”  I remember buying an ST-4 CCD when they first came out, it was incredibly primitive by today’s standards but I enjoyed using it immensely, it was great being involved with the cutting edge.

[Ags]

29 minutes ago, tomato said:

As for the “wait for the technology to mature”

I hear there are some AMAZING telescopes coming out in anno 2243 😃

Edited March 26 by Ags

[tomato]

3 minutes ago, Ags said:

I hear there are some AMAZING telescopes coming out in anno 2243 😃

Yeah, they come with a free rocket to put them into orbit…

[GasGiant]

3 hours ago, 900SL said:

represent 500 quid lost if you decide to go further with astro imaging.

Na. I could sell mine now for 400 quid.  To me, 100 quid 'loss' is worth it as ive had fun with it

[saac]

I found the Ed Ting video confusing and not really that worthwhile. In his opening he states he would not advise people to buy smart telescopes because in his words they are not very good. He then goes on to say that they are here to stay and will only get better!  Sorry but if nobody buys then the manufactures will see that there is no demand and close down that line. So he is contradicting himself there, there clearly is a demand.  I think he is massively overlooking the selling point of this type of telescope - it is plug and play, point and shoot technology. It wears its heart on its sleeve.  It is not pretending to anybody that it will produce outstanding quality images and it is not marketed at those who have dedicated imaging rigs and experience. To hold this product up against those criteria is a bit of false analysis. As for "don't buy the technology will change" - well that's pretty much a given ever since the oft quoted model T Ford!

Jim 

Edited March 26 by saac

[saac]

On 25/03/2024 at 19:17, LaurenceT said:

I have raised this point earlier today on a Facebook Seestar group about his comments concerning early adoption.

There's always going to be a better model of anything coming along "later", we just have to wait for it.

I'm 77 in a few days, just how long would our Ed like me to wait for that vastly improved model?

As it happens I'm quite enjoying my Seestar, it took me about 5 minutes last night to set it up and show my grandchildren the wonders of the Orion nebula appearing on the TV screen thanks to iPad screen mirroring.

Imagine my surprise when I looked at the Seestar this morning and found it had stacked and processed an image for me.

It wasn't at all perfect, some of the stars looked a bit weird 😀 and there was some detail missing but with a very little basic work it brushed up quite well. I don't think my audience would have appreciated the "better" image produced by my ZS61!

My only "objection" is the fixed FOV but if I really want to capture something different I can use my other fairly basic kit.

That is actually a cracking image Laurence. I think your description and experience of how you used it to share images in real time is exactly what these telescopes are about. Quick no fuss setup and no wait images that can be shared then move on to the next target . Perfect for any group viewing or outreach. I haven't got one but I would get a kick out of using something like the Seestar while I have my main rig working its way through its imaging task. 

Jim

Edited March 26 by saac

[Cosmic Geoff]

There is talk of what ZWO might produce after the Seestar. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if one wanted a 4" Seestar, one could put one together right now with the following shopping list:

ZWO camera, ASIAIR Mini, ZWO eaf, ZWO EFW,  UV/IR cut filter, dual band filter,  full aperture solar filter, 4" ED scope,  equatorial GoTo mount. The total comes to about £2600.

Ouch. But cheaper than an EVoscope or the Celestron.  And you could change components to suit your preferences. 

[Geoff Lister]

I think that we are back to the old adage Your best telescope is the one you use. In the last 3 months, given the variable weather in the south-west of England, for me, it has been my Seestar and Dwarf II. Easy to set up, quick to get going, and quick to get back under cover when (not if) it starts raining. Probably slightly more Seestar than Dwarf, but sometimes both together.

If I can rely on a clear evening, then it is worth getting out the 10" Dob, but, given the narrow time and altitude window for comet 12P, there was no contest.

Geoff

[M40]

Just saying......

 

Add a touch of processing to both, now that would be a comparison. 

And it will be packed in the vague chance of a clear night next hols.  Might even give the images a go with affinity photo 2 whilst I am at it 

 

[paulastro]

21 minutes ago, Geoff Lister said:

I think that we are back to the old adage Your best telescope is the one you use. In the last 3 months, given the variable weather in the south-west of England, for me, it has been my Seestar and Dwarf II. Easy to set up, quick to get going, and quick to get back under cover when (not if) it starts raining. Probably slightly more Seestar than Dwarf, but sometimes both together.

If I can rely on a clear evening, then it is worth getting out the 10" Dob, but, given the narrow time and altitude window for comet 12P, there was no contest.

Geoff

It's the same for me since I came out of hospital in early January.  My 10 inch has not been used, my Askar 103 triplet twice and my seestar seven or eight times - and that doesn't include a few solar sessions.  All because of the weather.

[Paul M]

Perhaps smart scopes will come of age when they produce images, from the app, that are at least superficially as good as those from whatever the current AP trend is at the time.

When  you consider that the great leaps now are from camera sensor technology and software/AI advances, that time might not be so far off.

The leap, in my view, will be with the first self-polar-aligning, equatorial smart telecopes. I Think that is only a few short years away. 

And it can't come soon enough! 🤣

[Elp]

14 hours ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

one could put one together right now

Perhaps some people are apprehensive about doing it themselves but I agree. You can put together a camera lens EQ setup for around 1000-1500 or so.

What I don't understand is that together with a traditional telescope setup they own, people are happy to spend 500 to "dabble or explore" but not put a little more investment into their current setup to achieve the same or better which will likely be used for longer. You don't necessarily need driven axis, just add a flip mirror to a scope, planetary camera, link to a computer and keep to short exposures you can do similar (goto you'd have to do yourself), if you've already got a goto mount well you're in a better position.

You can't argue with the ease that these "smart" scopes offer which is a large part of their appeal, the low cost of entry for the SS is the kicker which Ed seemed to gloss over though justified it slightly by suggesting to wait for a better one, some people cannot wait though either due to impulse or life circumstances.

For me, I see the appeal and it was the best product announced at NEAF last year, but I don't need one due to what I have already. The only reason that would sway me for the current model is convenience which other people have mentioned. The product has too many good things going for it to outweigh any negatives, but I agree with what may happen to existing models when a newer model comes along, it's already happened with the asiairs when older ones became readily available on secondary markets when the pro/plus/mini came out as people got rid of the old to get the new, but I guess this happens with any items, not just the Seestar.

[paulastro]

2 hours ago, Elp said:

Perhaps some people are apprehensive about doing it themselves but I agree. You can put together a camera lens EQ setup for around 1000-1500 or so.

What I don't understand is that together with a traditional telescope setup they own, people are happy to spend 500 to "dabble or explore" but not put a little more investment into their current setup to achieve the same or better which will likely be used for longer. You don't necessarily need driven axis, just add a flip mirror to a scope, planetary camera, link to a computer and keep to short exposures you can do similar (goto you'd have to do yourself), if you've already got a goto mount well you're in a better position.

You can't argue with the ease that these "smart" scopes offer which is a large part of their appeal, the low cost of entry for the SS is the kicker which Ed seemed to gloss over though justified it slightly by suggesting to wait for a better one, some people cannot wait though either due to impulse or life circumstances.

For me, I see the appeal and it was the best product announced at NEAF last year, but I don't need one due to what I have already. The only reason that would sway me for the current model is convenience which other people have mentioned. The product has too many good things going for it to outweigh any negatives, but I agree with what may happen to existing models when a newer model comes along, it's already happened with the asiairs when older ones became readily available on secondary markets when the pro/plus/mini came out as people got rid of the old to get the new, but I guess this happens with any items, not just the Seestar.

 

[DaveL59]

3 hours ago, Elp said:

Perhaps some people are apprehensive about doing it themselves but I agree. You can put together a camera lens EQ setup for around 1000-1500 or so.

What I don't understand is that together with a traditional telescope setup they own, people are happy to spend 500 to "dabble or explore" but not put a little more investment into their current setup to achieve the same or better which will likely be used for longer. You don't necessarily need driven axis, just add a flip mirror to a scope, planetary camera, link to a computer and keep to short exposures you can do similar (goto you'd have to do yourself), if you've already got a goto mount well you're in a better position.

 

For me it was simple. I do have a EQ5 goto and also an EQ5 with dual axis motors but my scopes are F10. The S50 lets me have a dabble, see what I can't with my visual gear and makes it easy to share views with daughter and grandkids. Plus they could borrow it if they're away somewhere dark since its compact and an easy plonk and view setup.

I've no real desire to buy yet another (and faster) scope, camera etc just to image occasionally, esp as I can't leave it set up so have the hassle of doing setup, alignment and take-down each session and then post processing etc. Don't really fancy using my DSLR for the purpose either, why clock up the shutter count when the S50 can do it all for around the same price as replacing the DSLR body? I do have a flip mirror so I could use the DSLR for moon/planets if I feel the desire to however.

So the premise that just adding a couple bits to your existing gear makes a big assumption - is what you have up to the job, if not that's a lot more expense than a £500 S50 would cost 🙂 

[Bazz]

22 hours ago, 900SL said:

I'm not getting into a debate about this, as we have clearly different opinions, but it is a one trick pony, with a fixed 2 mp sensor, fixed lens, limitations on exposure, field rotation etc.

This may appeal to a novice imager who just wants a point and shoot solution. It has zero appeal to me, as somebody who has done his apprenticeship. And I totally understand why Ed Ting wasn't a fan boy

 

   

 

Ed Ting was comparing many thousands of pounds worth of Astro gear with an amazing £500 piece of kit. I am a member of some Seestar FB groups and some of the images people are getting are truly astounding.

Experienced imagers are also shouting the praises of this scope. So I am not sure what your beef with it is

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

15 hours ago, Paul M said:

Perhaps smart scopes will come of age when they produce images, from the app, that are at least superficially as good as those from whatever the current AP trend is at the time.

When  you consider that the great leaps now are from camera sensor technology and software/AI advances, that time might not be so far off.

The leap, in my view, will be with the first self-polar-aligning, equatorial smart telecopes. I Think that is only a few short years away. 

And it can't come soon enough! 🤣

Camera sensors are hitting fundamental limits. The quantum efficiency on my best camera peaks at around 85%, with low amp-glow, low read noise (just a few electrons tops), and cooling. There is simply not much room for improvement.  AI cannot make up more photons, or magically increase resolutions beyond what the PSF of the optics allows. It could generate plausible images that look great, but it known that these AI methods can hallucinate objects that aren't there.  This is why software for faint object detection we are developing at the University of Groningen relies on statistics to ensure there is enough evidence for the presence of something that cannot be explained as a random fluctuation caused by noise.

This is not to knock systems like the SeeStar 50. If people enjoy using them: great! If others prefer more complex set-ups: also fine.

[Ags]

1 hour ago, michael.h.f.wilkinson said:

This is why software for faint object detection we are developing at the University of Groningen relies on statistics to ensure there is enough evidence for the presence of something that cannot be explained as a random fluctuation caused by noise.

Interesting.... isn't that however the same as saying "we are developing a new stacking algorithm"?

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Ags said:

Interesting.... isn't that however the same as saying "we are developing a new stacking algorithm"?

Not really, this method simply detects structures (in stacked, linear images, so no  non-linear stretch applied) that are potential objects. Fairly uniquely, it handles nested objects (objects superimposed on others), unlike Sextractor, Profound or NoiseChisel + Segment.  We published a comparison paper in Astronomy & Astrophysics a few years back, and are working on several improvements. The paper is open access, so free to download.

This is a figure from an earlier work by Paul Teeninga, Ugo Moschini, Scott Trager, and myself, showing the difference between SExtratcor and our MTObjects method. The latter shows much more of the faint regions of the galaxy, and detects H-II regions in spiral arms, and superimposed stars as individual objects, rather than having them cause a fragmentation of the detected object as in SExtractor.

We will submit a paper on a multi-band version shortly.

[900SL]

6 hours ago, Bazz said:

Ed Ting was comparing many thousands of pounds worth of Astro gear with an amazing £500 piece of kit. I am a member of some Seestar FB groups and some of the images people are getting are truly astounding.

Experienced imagers are also shouting the praises of this scope. So I am not sure what your beef with it is

Feel free to post an example astounding image, with supporting details to confirm it is from a Seestar. 

[WolfieGlos]

26 minutes ago, 900SL said:

Feel free to post an example astounding image, with supporting details to confirm it is from a Seestar. 

I'm very much in the same boat as you @900SL, no image that I've seen from this thing is "astounding". In fact, most of them are of a quality that I would deem "needs more subs" and would never be shared anywhere. However, it's great for what it can do, but it is limited and it certainly doesn't appeal to me. I can think of a lot of things £500, apparently a "small amount of money", could do.

However, there is clearly a market for it...proved in it's sales! Anything that progresses this hobby has got to be a good thing, so for those that want it...go ahead 🙂

Right now, with the early success of it, I'm going to compare it to when phones first had cameras built into them; the quality was nothing compared to a DSLR (or even SLR at that time!). But 20 or so years down the line, fewer people have a traditional camera, and photos captured on phones are of good quality, and simple and easy to use. Other than professional uses (IE wildlife, weddings), a DSLR will still blow a phone photo away, but that's because they are more specialised for said use.

This is the generation the Seestar is aimed at, and I bet in a time period that is less than the DSLR/phone camera changeover, the same effect could be said for the smart telescopes. Affordability will come into it, but until such a time, they will remain a fad to me, and I'll jump aboard the train on the last carriage.

Edited March 27 by WolfieGlos