OSC Camera Choice - Any Recommendations?

[rnobleeddy]

Decided to move back to OSC as I've found I have less time this year, and a hard drive full of incomplete LRGB or SHO data  I realise the downsides to this move, so rather than a debate on if it's a good idea, I just wanted to check to see if my camera choice seemed rational?

I've narrowed it down to a ZWO 2600MC or 294MC, and that choice basically comes down to how much I decide I can spend.

Thoughts are below - any challenges or recommendations?

 

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My decision criteria:

- I'd ideally like at least a 4/3" sensor size. Otherwise bigger is better.

- I'm using ZWO as examples because I may choose the ASAIR route. but I could be convinced to use a different brand if there are advantages (in terms of cost, or chips that ZWO don't use)

- Budget TBC - I'm selling all my mono gear and having a clear out, but I imagine I'll have up to £2K, but spending less is better!

- I'll shoot colour (obviously) and narrowband via a filter

- I have a couple of OTAs and a camera lens that I use, which cover the focal length scale, so I think aiming for the smallest possible pixel size makes sense. I use startools and find the fractional binning works very well, to get back to the correct sampling rate.

- Happy to wait a few months if something is coming soon?

 

 

So far, I've decided it's a choice between these - with the 2600MC being the preference if I can afford it.

- 2600MC: The upside of the 2600MC is the APS-C sensor size. The downside is the cost (it'll be at least £2300 for the camera, in the sale, and a cheaper narrow band filer). 

- 294MC :  Upside is cost - on sale at £1035 - allows £ for a good narrowband filter.

 

 

I've therefore ruled out:

533MC : Close with the 294MC. Upside is cost and ability to use 1.25" filters. Downside is 1" square chip size. Not too worried about the aspect ratio, but if my maths is correct, a significantly smaller surface area. As it's my only camera, I think I'll take the chip size, so would go for the 294MC over the 533MC.

071MC : Released in 2018. Hard to find exact data on QE, but recent backlit chips appear to be big improvements.

183MC: Superseded by the 533MC

1600MC : Older. I had the MM equivalent and I'd rather avoid the microlensing.

Edited December 18, 2022 by rnobleeddy

[PeterCPC]

You seem to have already made your decision so I'm not sure I can add anything.

[Lee_P]

2600MC is a phenomenal camera. Couple it with an Optolong L-Ultimate -- or second-hand L-eXtreme if so constrained by budget -- and you'll be a happy imager!

9 minutes ago, rnobleeddy said:

- Happy to wait a few months if something is coming soon?

As good as it is, the 2600MC is a few years old now. I guess a replacement must be in the works, but I haven't heard any rumours.

[Elp]

The 294 you'll be in for a world of pain regarding flats calibration due to the sensor. The 533 would be a good choice if you can work around the square sensor. The 183 is still an excellent performer. What scope?

Edited December 18, 2022 by Elp

[ONIKKINEN]

You can save an enormous pile of money by getting the Rising Cam branded IMX571 chipped OSC camera: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001359313736.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.6f047164JGhOx6&algo_pvid=88c7fc7f-59b2-4b58-9bdc-a75b08237944&algo_exp_id=88c7fc7f-59b2-4b58-9bdc-a75b08237944-0

Performance is the same (actually a bit better with lower read noise) than the 2600MC. No Asiair with this camera, but with the price difference between the RisingCam and the ZWO 2600MC you could fit a mini-pc and still be left with pocket change in the end. This camera has many happy users around the world and the paying/shipping process is painless so no need to worry about it being an AliExpress thing. The manufacturer is ToupTek, which makes all Altair cameras for example, but just without the Altair price. You can expect a high quality product and not some knock-off cheap chinese copy.

If AliExpress is not your thing, you can find the same camera (with extra price) here: https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p14967_TS-Optics-Color-Astro-Camera-2600CP-Sony-IMX571-Sensor-D-28-3-mm.html

Or here: https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p13286_Omegon-Camera-veTEC-571-C-Color-cooled--Sensor-D-28-3-mm.html

Even if you already had an Asiair (not sure if the case) you would still be saving money with these compared to the 2600MC.

294 is a sensor to avoid in my opinion. Seen too many threads about calibration issues with that one.

[rnobleeddy]

21 minutes ago, Elp said:

The 294 you'll be in for a world of pain regarding flats calibration due to the sensor. The 533 would be a good choice if you can work around the square sensor. The 183 is still an excellent performer. What scope?

Does this hold for the colour version too? I heard of those issues as I own the QHY mono version right now, but my understanding was there were actually different chips, and QHY fixed at least some of the issue with new firmware.

 

EDIT - to answer my own question, yes, this still appears to be an issue, albeit some people are happy, so presume it's a sensor lottery?

Edited December 18, 2022 by rnobleeddy

[rnobleeddy]

13 minutes ago, ONIKKINEN said:

You can save an enormous pile of money by getting the Rising Cam branded IMX571 chipped OSC camera: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001359313736.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.6f047164JGhOx6&algo_pvid=88c7fc7f-59b2-4b58-9bdc-a75b08237944&algo_exp_id=88c7fc7f-59b2-4b58-9bdc-a75b08237944-0

Performance is the same (actually a bit better with lower read noise) than the 2600MC. No Asiair with this camera, but with the price difference between the RisingCam and the ZWO 2600MC you could fit a mini-pc and still be left with pocket change in the end. This camera has many happy users around the world and the paying/shipping process is painless so no need to worry about it being an AliExpress thing. The manufacturer is ToupTek, which makes all Altair cameras for example, but just without the Altair price. You can expect a high quality product and not some knock-off cheap chinese copy.

If AliExpress is not your thing, you can find the same camera (with extra price) here: https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p14967_TS-Optics-Color-Astro-Camera-2600CP-Sony-IMX571-Sensor-D-28-3-mm.html

Or here: https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p13286_Omegon-Camera-veTEC-571-C-Color-cooled--Sensor-D-28-3-mm.html

Even if you already had an Asiair (not sure if the case) you would still be saving money with these compared to the 2600MC.

294 is a sensor to avoid in my opinion. Seen too many threads about calibration issues with that one.

I don't have an ASAIR right now. I've used astroberry, but my 4Gb Pi 4 appears unable to handle the 48MP unlocked mode of my mono 294 (I haven't got as far as flats yet 😂). 

It's very tempting. The only obvious downside is I assume warranty repairs are close to impossible? And I guess VAT + import duty is added to the price I see on ali express?

[scotty38]

12 minutes ago, rnobleeddy said:

Does this hold for the colour version too? I heard of those issues as I own the QHY mono version right now, but my understanding was there were actually different chips, and QHY fixed at least some of the issue with new firmware.

The mono is the 492 sensor and the colour the 294. What the fundamental differences are I couldn't tell you.

I have had the ZWO 294mc and now have a QHY 294m and both need careful calibration frames but once you sort that out the cameras are fine. I had a bit of pain with the 294mc but I was using an l-extreme filter which just adds to it but once sorted (there's a thread on here somewhere) it was great.

I've only been imaging for just under 2 years and the 294mc was my first camera so it can be done as a beginner no worries.

Edited December 18, 2022 by scotty38

[Elp]

The 294 colour is the one that has the issue (not sure about the mono), I'm still working on a solution but slowly improving. The 183 does have amp glow but dark frames calibrate it out. If you are looking to utilise other manufacturers I would also look into those options too.

Importing, VAT is added at cart on AE, duties will apply on the value of the item and shipping when it enters the country, for cameras I find there's little difference to justify importing them but that probably only applies to the more popular brands. You can sometimes save a lot via importing.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Elp

[ONIKKINEN]

3 minutes ago, rnobleeddy said:

I don't have an ASAIR right now. I've used astroberry, but my 4Gb Pi 4 appears unable to handle the 48MP unlocked mode of my mono 294 (I haven't got as far as flats yet 😂). 

It's very tempting. The only obvious downside is I assume warranty repairs are close to impossible? And I guess VAT + import duty is added to the price I see on ali express?

Warranty repairs are very much possible and the customer service rep (Eddy if i recall) is active and reachable through AliExpress messages or Whatsapp. Of course you'll have to ship it to China which will cost something and probably take a while to get sorted. That is the obvious downside and why i linked the 2 versions available from TS in Germany where you can assume to have effortless warranty repairs if needed as its much closer to home and a shop many have dealt with dozens of times.

Regarding VAT, here is what the site tells to me when i VPN to the UK (or just change the location in the toolbar above)

My shown price with VAT included (to Finland):

Price shown to me as if i was a UK shopper:

Comparing the prices it does look like UK customers will pay VAT when it is imported since it does not mention anything about VAT and the price is cheaper.

[Xsubmariner]

You might want to check out the QHY268MC, currently £1599 at MA. No good though if you operate with an ASI Air which locks you to ZWO camera’s only.

 

[Ratlet]

Aye, AliExpress will charge vat at the checkout.

You could get in touch with Altair and see when their 571 based camera is going to be back in stock:

https://www.altairastro.com/altair-hypercam-26c-aps-c-colour-tec-astronomy-camera-16bit-6451-p.asp

£1400, UK based, 1 year warranty, should come with a 1 year sharpcap pro licence, a hard case a warm hat AND a packet of Haribo.  You'll need to source anything but the most basica adapters, but you can get a lot of adapters for the price difference between a zwo.

I had a 533mc from them.  It was great.  Minor issue with darks (no impact on image quality) but swiftly resolved and new unit sent out.  Happy to recommend them.

[rnobleeddy]

4 hours ago, Xsubmariner said:

You might want to check out the QHY268MC, currently £1599 at MA. No good though if you operate with an ASI Air which locks you to ZWO camera’s only.

 

Thanks - this is actually very competitive. I've had 2 QHY cameras so far and they've been great, and I don't think it's worth the extra just to use ASAIR.

[Chefgage]

5 hours ago, Elp said:

The 294 colour is the one that has the issue (not sure about the mono), I'm still working on a solution but slowly improving. The 183 does have amp glow but dark frames calibrate it out. If you are looking to utilise other manufacturers I would also look into those options too.

Importing, VAT is added at cart on AE, duties will apply on the value of the item and shipping when it enters the country, for cameras I find there's little difference to justify importing them but that probably only applies to the more popular brands. You can sometimes save a lot via importing.

Sorry to jump on this thread but what issue are you having with the 294mc pro?  I was not aware there was an issue with it. Mine calibrates fine. Just wondering if an issue may present itself at some point.

[Elp]

8 minutes ago, Chefgage said:

Sorry to jump on this thread but what issue are you having with the 294mc pro?  I was not aware there was an issue with it. Mine calibrates fine. Just wondering if an issue may present itself at some point.

I have the uncooled but it demonstrates the same issue. When taking flats and applying them you get a strange random green red uneven pattern across the frame, it's even worse when using an lextreme filter. Reading up on it I've found utilising a gain setting near the switch of low to high gain can make it worse so then I've tried a gain of 250 (over 200) which improves it a little. Also dimming your flat field so you can take long seconds long flats also reduces it, but the issue is still present. My last flats were 5 seconds long with minimal histogram peak. The issue presents itself starkly once you do a dynamic background extraction on the stack.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Elp

[Chefgage]

1 minute ago, Elp said:

I have the uncooled but it demonstrates the same issue. When taking flats and applying them you get a strange random green red uneven pattern across the frame, it's even worse when using an lextreme filter. Reading up on it I've found utilising a gain setting near the switch of low to high gain can make it worse so then I've tried a gain of 250 (over 200) which improves it a little. Also dimming your flat field so you can take long seconds long flats also reduces it, but the issue is still present. My last flats were 5 seconds long with minimal histogram peak.

I see. I must have got one of the good sensors then as I don't get any of them problems. I use a gain of 120 and using a flat led panel to take my flats. I use the lowest brightness settings in the panel and when using the l-enhance filter I use an exposure time of 400ms for my flats (the asiair gives me a time of 500ms for an auto exposure flat) but I find that a tad too long based if the graph.

I guess I can count myself lucky then.

[Elp]

A flat exposure less than a second is unusually quick from what I've read and tried with various cameras, more so when using an lenhance. What do your overstretched stacks look like?

[Budgie1]

The ASI294MC Pro (cooled version) is a nice camera with a sensitive sensor. It has a reputation for having an issue with the calibration frames, as has already been posted, which means you may be able to pick up a second hand camera for a lot less than you may think.

Regarding the "issue", I did have some problems to start off with but only when using the L-eXtreme filter. For broadband imaging I use just a UV/IR cut filter with a gain of 120 and offset 30. With the L-eXterme filter I use a gain 200 and offset 30.

In both cases the camera is set to run at -10°C and when taking the flats I aim for 26,000 ADU and exposure of 2-4 seconds. I also use flat-darks, to calibrate the flats, and don't use Bias frames, just darks.

[newbie alert]

18 hours ago, ONIKKINEN said:

The manufacturer is ToupTek, which makes all Altair cameras for example, but just without the Altair price. You can expect a high quality product and not some knock-off cheap chinese copy.

Touptek is still a Chinese made company, if you wish to have them make you let's say a ONIKKIEN brand they can, would that be classed as a cheap Chinese knock off... There's plenty of those out there

Zwo ,Qhy and player one make their own cameras, that's why they differ in some specs.. that's why the prices all differ, it's not just the sensor and the colour

[Chefgage]

On 18/12/2022 at 22:51, Budgie1 said:

The ASI294MC Pro (cooled version) is a nice camera with a sensitive sensor. It has a reputation for having an issue with the calibration frames, as has already been posted, which means you may be able to pick up a second hand camera for a lot less than you may think.

Regarding the "issue", I did have some problems to start off with but only when using the L-eXtreme filter. For broadband imaging I use just a UV/IR cut filter with a gain of 120 and offset 30. With the L-eXterme filter I use a gain 200 and offset 30.

In both cases the camera is set to run at -10°C and when taking the flats I aim for 26,000 ADU and exposure of 2-4 seconds. I also use flat-darks, to calibrate the flats, and don't use Bias frames, just darks.

Interesting your ADU value. I read somewhere to aim for half way to the 65000 value so 32500 ish. That seems to give me good results. To get this value with an l-enhance filter my exposure time is 400ms.

As others have said a longer exposure time is needed but I don't seem to need this?

Unless I do have problems but I am fixing them when processing?  Either way I will stick with what I do 🙂

[Elp]

You'll know if you overstretch your image. The issue limits how much you can histogram or level stretch your stack because it will cause the red/green unevenness to show so you're limited to how much you can process the image any further. Even applying synthetic flats as an additional operation doesn't do much to help.

[900SL]

Or get a 533mc pro or similar by others and avoid all that malarky 😂

[Craig a]

I vouch for the 533mc pro it’s an excellent camera, the square sensor is actually great for framing albeit it’s smaller than you’d like but I’d class ot as the little brother of the 2600, same pixel size etc, the 294 is particularly picky with calibration frames but once mastered it produces quality images also, there is a recent vid on YouTube on mastering the 294 calibration, at least 3 second flats it’s one that’s mentioned 

[ollypenrice]

I'm a mono diehard but I think that, maybe, I may eventually have died! I'm working with a 2600MC in a RASA 8 and it's a quite incredible camera. I'm also setting up the significantly less expensive TS version of a camera with the same chip but can't comment on that, so far, since we're not up and running with it.

Anyway, the 2600MC is a knockout.

Olly

[Stuf1978]

On 18/12/2022 at 14:05, Elp said:

The 294 you'll be in for a world of pain regarding flats calibration due to the sensor. The 533 would be a good choice if you can work around the square sensor. The 183 is still an excellent performer. What scope?

The 294MC Pro gets a lot of bashing for this and it's mostly unjustified. Mine has calibrated perfectly evertime, you just need to ensure your individual flats are over a few seconds long and jobs a good'un 😃