Need assistance with Eyepiece Upgrade

[Located]

Hey all again, glad to be back on the forum with some more questions ahah! So I've had my Skywatcher Explorer 130p for about a week or so now and had definitely been a blast using it. Even though at the moment I have only used it on Jupiter and the moon as the weather in the UK as you know is the VERY BEST! Though I still enjoy looking at them! 

I'm now looking to SLIGHTLY upgrade my equipment on my SW130P like eyepieces and whatever else you guys recommend. At the moment I have the 2x and 5x Barlow along with the 10mm and 25mm but I assume they came with the scope already. (I bought it off of someone.)

I was looking at the BST starguiders as recommended and yeah I was just wondering whether it is worth buying them and how it works of I buy a new scope in the future. (I assume it works the same as long as the sizes of the eyepiece is the same? As always I'm happy to spend the money on these but would definitely save money if I can use them on a future upgrade to the scope etc(I'm new to this sorry haha.))

I also want to know how much difference they make if I buy them as currently I can see Jupiter decently as a 'dot' kind of but with a bit of colour along with small 'dots' being the moons (Which constantly blasts me away with joy 😂)  though wondering if I can push the limits and see a bit closer, honestly I want to push my SW130P to its full performance if that's possible with these BST eyepieces and stuff, will be glad to hear a response, thanks guys and gals!

Edited August 9, 2021 by Located

[fifeskies]

Eyepieces are a standard size so any upgrade can be kept for a new scope if you change the telescope.

The maximum usefull magnification will be limited by the telescope (aperature in the most part).

The better eyepieces will give a sharper view with improved contrast but will only allow a small improvement in maximum magnification if any.

Too much magnification can result in a less satisfactory "mushy" view.

Upgrading from the generally poor included eyepieces does make a big improvement in image quality in almost every case , so is well worth doing.

[russ]

The BST Starguiders will be a nice upgrade from those 10mm and 25mm eyepieces. Will be well worth it. 

Also worth mentioning collimation with it being a Newtonian telescope. If the collimation is off the view will be degraded and even the supplied eyepieces may have more to give. 

[Zermelo]

The 130P is a decent enough scope and the mirror will be capable of more than can be shown by the basic eyepieces included with it (10mm and 25mm).

Viewing in the UK is often limited by the prevailing conditions rather than the instrument, but if all else is OK then your 130P has a maximum useful magnification of around x260. As your focal length is 650mm, that would be achieved with an eyepiece of focal length around 2.5mm, or equivalently a 5mm eyepiece with a x2 barlow (I would ignore your x5 barlow for now; it won't have come with the scope when new, it's more likely use is for astrophotography). But you'll be able to push your scope to the max on relatively few occasions, so for your initial upgrades it would be better to concentrate on eyepieces you'll be able to use more often. In the Starguider range for example, the 8mm performs well and would give you a useful x80. With your x2 barlow that becomes x160.

I wouldn't worry about wasting money on BSTs. They are good enough to perform well with your 130P (a more demanding "fast" scope) and will do so with just about any other you might buy next. If you stay long enough in the hobby to outgrow them, there is a healthy second hand market, providing you look after them.

Have you read any of the forum threads about choosing eyepieces? There are quite a few.

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/43171-eyepieces-the-very-least-you-need/

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/380112-things-to-consider-before-upgrading-your-eyepieces/?tab=comments#comment-4112418

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/374557-eyepiece-upgrade/?tab=comments#comment-4061843

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/375282-eyepiece-selection-based-on-exit-pupil/

 

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Zermelo
typo

[Mr niall]

5 hours ago, Located said:

I also want to know how much difference they make if I buy them as currently I can see Jupiter decently as a 'dot' kind of but with a bit of colour along with small 'dots' being the moons (Which constantly blasts me away with joy 😂)  though wondering if I can push the limits and see a bit closer, honestly I want to push my SW130P to its full performance if that's possible with these BST eyepieces and stuff, will be glad to hear a response, thanks guys and gals!

Eyepieces make a sort of incremental improvement. It wouldn’t be a totally transformative experience or anything - like opening up a whole new world of viewing pleasure and detail or anything like that. 
The eyepieces that come with the scope really aren’t too bad but combining a really budget Barlow with a really budget eyepiece does cause a bit if a “double dip” in quality. You will never need to use a 5x Barlow with your scope.

The biggest advantage with BST starguiders I would say is probably the wide field of view and the long eye relief. Those two things really do make a difference to viewing enjoyment and justify the price tag alone.

As a side note - you really should be easily able to see clearly defined bands across Jupiter even on a relatively murky night at anything above 75x. If you can’t then maybe need to think about why (it won’t be a fault of your current eyepieces)
 

The easiest way to get the most performance from your scope is good collimation, no eyepiece can overcome a badly aligned mirror!

If you want maximum performance from your scope then by far the biggest factor is viewing location and dark skies, closely followed by collimation. 

[John]

Eyepieces are not that high up the list of things that impact what we see but that does not mean that folks on forums don't spend a lot of time discussing them or (in some cases) a lot of money on upgrading them !

From top to bottom, these factors are generally agreed to be the primary influencers of image quality:

1      -  Seeing (not transparency, but the level of atmospheric disturbance which distorts the image moment to moment).

2    - Quality of the primary optics.

3    - Central obstruction size.

4     - Alignment of the optics (collimation).

5     - The diagonal being used.

6     - The ability of the focuser to deliver critical fine focus.

7       - The eyepiece.

8       - The skill and fatigue level of the observer and their eyes.

[jetstream]

11 hours ago, Located said:

with the 10mm

Our 10mm that came with the scope went into the bin... the 25mm Super plossl is decent. A 10mm BCO will be a nice lifetime upgrade that will work nicely with a 2x barlow. IMHO.

[Louis D]

Try the 5x Barlow with the 25mm in the interim to see if the image is improved over the 10mm with the 2x Barlow.

You have checked that your scope is properly collimated, right?

Have you been able to observe the rings of Saturn?  They should be pretty obvious.

[Located]

Hi all, thanks for the time you spent writing this information.

I'll definitely look into making sure it's collimated properly as it could most definitely be off slightly so thank you. For the eyepiece I'll make sure to get them soon, I'll look into getting it collimated properly first if not and then I will move to the eyepiece upgrade once done and tested. Thanks again guys/gals! 👍

[Zermelo]

8 hours ago, John said:

Eyepieces are not that high up the list of things that impact what we see but that does not mean that folks on forums don't spend a lot of time discussing them

😁 Agreed - the other things on the list are never going to engage the attention as much as a shiny new eyepiece, but OP should be aware of the relative importance.

[jetstream]

9 hours ago, John said:

Eyepieces are not that high up the list of things that impact what we see

Except when referring to that supplied 10mm MA IMHO. Cooling and collimation are very high up like you say John, along with the other things. The 25mm Super plossl easily shows the Horse Head in the 15"+ scopes here.

[Tiny Clanger]

15 hours ago, Located said:

I was looking at the BST starguiders as recommended and yeah I was just wondering whether it is worth buying them and how it works of I buy a new scope in the future. (I assume it works the same as long as the sizes of the eyepiece is the same? As always I'm happy to spend the money on these but would definitely save money if I can use them on a future upgrade to the scope etc(I'm new to this sorry haha.))

 

Eyepieces (mostly) come in 1.25" diameter barrels (the bit that slides in the focuser ) or 2" diameter barrels.

Some telescopes come with 2" focusers, but also an adapter which reduces the diameter of the focus tube to 1.25", so  even 2" focuser 'scopes can use the BST starguiders, which are all 1.25" barrels.

So yes, you can use those eyepieces , or any other 1.25" barrel  ones for that matter  in pretty much any modern 'scope . I suspect your 130p will have a 1.25" focuser.

Different telescopes with different focal lengths will give different magnifications with a particular eyepiece , but as long as you don't try to push a telescope to the extreme of magnification it can cope with , it should be OK

Heather

[Mr niall]

1 hour ago, jetstream said:

Except when referring to that supplied 10mm MA IMHO. Cooling and collimation are very high up like you say John, along with the other things. The 25mm Super plossl easily shows the Horse Head in the 15"+ scopes here.

Skywatchers don’t come with plossls anymore. They used to, way back in the day. But now they come with a “Super” but it isn’t a plossl, it’s a MA.

Still not a bad eyepiece, but a little bit cynical on the part of Skywatcher if you ask me.

[Chris]

10 hours ago, John said:

Eyepieces are not that high up the list of things that impact what we see but that does not mean that folks on forums don't spend a lot of time discussing them or (in some cases) a lot of money on upgrading them !

From top to bottom, these factors are generally agreed to be the primary influencers of image quality:

1      -  Seeing (not transparency, but the level of atmospheric disturbance which distorts the image moment to moment).

2    - Quality of the primary optics.

3    - Central obstruction size.

4     - Alignment of the optics (collimation).

5     - The diagonal being used.

6     - The ability of the focuser to deliver critical fine focus.

7       - The eyepiece.

8       - The skill and fatigue level of the observer and their eyes.

I'm surprised mirror alignment isn't a bit higher up, John! Good if it is though, then we can fret a bit less over it  

[John]

1 hour ago, Chris said:

I'm surprised mirror alignment isn't a bit higher up, John! Good if it is though, then we can fret a bit less over it  

That list was from Richard Suiter's "Star Testing Astronomical Telescopes". 

I guess we try and optomize as many factors as we can to give ourselves the best chance we can to get the best results.

I've seen others argue that the eyepiece is half the scope convincingly

 

[bingevader]

Just to throw a spanner in the works!

I wouldn't start off by replacing EPs you already have!

Maybe I was lucky, but neither the 25mm or the 10mm was terrible with my 'scope, especially when compared to no EP at all!

I'd suggest starting with the gaps and come back to the 25mm and 10mm when you are satisfied that the purchase is worth it.

The 8mm BST and a 130mm 'scope is very good IMHO.

[Tiny Clanger]

12 minutes ago, bingevader said:

Just to throw a spanner in the works!

I wouldn't start off by replacing EPs you already have!

Maybe I was lucky, but neither the 25mm or the 10mm was terrible with my 'scope, especially when compared to no EP at all!

I'd suggest starting with the gaps and come back to the 25mm and 10mm when you are satisfied that the purchase is worth it.

The 8mm BST and a 130mm 'scope is very good IMHO.

I did something similar to what you suggest, simply because I'm sceptical about , well, pretty much everything ...

My first ever eyepiece purchase (apart from the skywatcher bundled pair)happened this time last year , and  was a 17mm skywatcher super  plosll. Why 17mm ? Two reasons, first I thought if there was no improvement over the quality I could see in my cheap 'scope ,over the stock eyepieces,  at least I'd have a different focal length,. Second, the 17mm was about £3 cheaper (from , I think, Bristol Cameras via Amazon) than the rest of the range , so cost me £20. It was lockdown #1, I was new to the hobby, I didn't have much spare cash and was not sure how much I'd use the telescope, so I was cautious.

When I got the 17mm in my 'scope I was instantly impressed with it, much sharper , brighter and just altogether nicer to use than the supplied ones. I bought a 32mm and a 12.5mm in the series  too. I don't  like the 12,5mm plossl, it  compares badly with the 8mm and 12 mm BSTs I've bought subsequently, and I find it uncomfortable to use, but the 17mm and 32mm are still  in frequent use, the 32mm for widefield and finding stuff in the 150 dob (I prefer it to tmy 25mm BST in that telescope) and the 17mm is my absolute favourite eyepiece to use in my ST80 refractor . I've subsequently learned about exit pupils and DSO spotting from light polluted skies which explains why that focal length works for me, and eye relief which explains why the 12.5mm plossl doesn't !

So, it's a strategy that worked for me, but it did suck me into a world of eyepiece acquisition , so OP beware

Heather

[Tiny Clanger]

If you've decided an 8mm BST is what you want ....

 

[Located]

56 minutes ago, Tiny Clanger said:

If you've decided an 8mm BST is what you want ....

 

Sent a PM, thank you so much for sending this. Hopefully I was quick enough 

[Tiny Clanger]

Fingers crossed 🙂

[Located]

14 minutes ago, Tiny Clanger said:

Fingers crossed 🙂

Secured both of them for a decent price. Can't wait to get my hands on 'em! Thanks for the help everyone once again! 👍

[Tiny Clanger]

Excellent, well done, you've got to be quick round here when something popular and well priced appears !

With an 8mm and a 15mm BST, and the not awful 25mm long eye relief one that came with your 'scope, you've got a nice range of eyepieces 🙂

Heather

[Zermelo]

1 hour ago, Located said:

Secured both of them for a decent price. Can't wait to get my hands on 'em! Thanks for the help everyone once again! 👍

Ah, great.  I'm sure you'll like them. I saw the ad and remembered your post, but apparently I'm two hours behind Heather 😀  You certainly do need to move fast on some of these.

[Tiny Clanger]

18 minutes ago, Zermelo said:

Ah, great.  I'm sure you'll like them. I saw the ad and remembered your post, but apparently I'm two hours behind Heather 😀  You certainly do need to move fast on some of these.

You know my ears prick up at the mention of 'BST starguider' or 'Heritage dob ' 🙂

Heather

[Pixies]

I've heard people slag off the 10mm basic Skywatcher EPs, and others say they are OK. I wonder if this is a matter of poor quality control at this price-point and their quality is variable.

I have a couple somewhere gathering dust (from secondhand scope purchases). I'll need to compare them.