Total Noob looking at AP on very small budget

[MattGP]

Evening all, so have been looking for the last few weeks and doing research on a set up for primarily AP (with a Canon 500D).

Am posting to get a little more advise as to be honest my head is starting to hurt now 😂

Originally has decided on the Skywatcher 200 dobsonian 8 in, but then realised that this may not be best for AP due to the fixed manual mount. Then started looking at AP specific, redcat, explore scientific, but that soon made me realise the price tag was way out of my reach, I’m looking at. £3-400 which I kinda know now is a drop in the ocean.

Came across this site and have read quite a few threads and the SW 130 with EQ3-2 seems to be a firm favourite and would work for someone like me, but not I’ve found the SW150 with Eq-3-2 which is within budget 🤔 but then I get flummoxed by the three diff types 150m, 150 PDs and 150PL and then my head starts hurting again.

So with this small budget would the SW150 be ok for AP and of these I’m thinking the PDS would be the better?

many thanks for your help.

matt

[carastro]

The smaller 130PDS might be even cheaper and ideal for AP.  However the same cannot be said for your choice of mount.  It appears to have manual tracking.

You need at least an EQ Mount with auto tracking, and the option to guide.  It also needs to be able to take the weight of the scope and accessories which will for AP be half what is advertised for observing.

If you are really on a tight budget, I think you'd be best to get a Skywatcher Star adventurer. £320 including the tripod, £269 without (if you already have a sturdy tripod or can get one elsewhere).

You can mount your camera on this and with a good lens you can do widefield imaging (it will also guide in RA).

It will also take a lightweight telescope.

Or, if you can pick up a decent mount 2nd hand such as EQ5 (which guides, I think there may be more than one version of EQ5) or HEQ5, or even the CG5GT (if they still exist).  I started with one of these. 

Carole 

Edited February 23, 2020 by carastro

[discardedastro]

The most important thing to spend the money on for AP is not the telescope! It's the mount. Long focal lengths require good tracking and normally guiding, so cost ratchets up rapidly.

I'd be looking to save up a bit more if you want to go for a telescope that can do DSO imaging. Or as Carole says, go for a standard DSLR camera and a Star Adventurer or similar for wide-field - wide field requires less perfect tracking (though I'd also look at the iOptron camera tracking mounts which have a nice in-built polarscope for ease of alignment).

Second hand mounts are definitely a good place to start out. EQ5 and above will do well for pretty much anything up to and including a 200mm Newtonian but ideally you'd go to something a bit beefier at that. Refractors and cameras with shorter focal lengths will definitely be an easier way in at that price point, especially if you've already got a suitable camera.

[vlaiv]

Are you interested in astronomy in general or just AP?

Do you have any other astronomy kit?

I'm asking because up to £400 - your budget is seriously tight. You won't even be able to get 130PDS and EQ3-2 and motorize it.

Goto version of EQ3-2 with motors is already at the top of your budget at £400 new. This means that you either want to purchase second hand, or possibly go with regular unmotorized mount and add motors - as separate purchase or DIY project (if you are into that sort of thing - stepper motors and a bit of arduino skill is all that's needed).

To answer your question - all of mentioned scopes - 150 models, are best suited for heavier mounts. 150PL model has 1200mm focal length and is generally not recommended for beginner to start imaging, although can be used as good imaging scope. PDS line of scopes by skywatcher is meant for imaging - they are equipped with 2" focuser with microfocusing and have larger secondary mirrors needed to provide good illumination for astro photography.

I would recommend 130PDS over 150 models in your case if you choose EQ3 mount. Larger scopes simply require larger mounts to be stable enough for imaging.

Having said all of the above, I would actually recommend you that you start by getting to know what is involved with AP - maybe a book on astro photography first?

If you are keen to get started - question comes - will you be able to add more cash later to this hobby? If answer is yes - just spend all cash you have now on largest mount that you can afford, and for the time being just mount your camera with regular lens on mount and start doing images and learning.

Scope like 130PDS is really not as expensive to be added later when you feel more comfortable and already know what you are doing.

If not - then my suggestion would be the same - get EQ3 class mount, see about motors but try to save some budget for later purchase of scope - and start with camera and lens.

[MattGP]

Many thanks for the super fast and very detailed replies, all super helpful and a few more names for me to take a look at.

When I looked at the EQ3-2 mount mentioned on another thread I thought it was motorised....then realised it wasn’t ☹️

For me it’s primarily imaging, although not sure my current lenses are much cop for AP only 200mm I think, so keen to get going with something.

Totally understand the comment re mount being most important and defo can invest more into interest if it develops and continues (although am guessing will be an expensive hobby 😂).

cheers

matt

[Nerf_Caching]

4 minutes ago, MattGP said:

Many thanks for the super fast and very detailed replies, all super helpful and a few more names for me to take a look at.

When I looked at the EQ3-2 mount mentioned on another thread I thought it was motorised....then realised it wasn’t ☹️

For me it’s primarily imaging, although not sure my current lenses are much cop for AP only 200mm I think, so keen to get going with something.

Totally understand the comment re mount being most important and defo can invest more into interest if it develops and continues (although am guessing will be an expensive hobby 😂).

cheers

matt

Well I took this using a Canon kit lens at 135mm on top of a skywatcher star adventurer mount, so your 200mm lens will definitely do better than this!

[MattGP]

5 minutes ago, Nerf_Caching said:

Well I took this using a Canon kit lens at 135mm on top of a skywatcher star adventurer mount, so your 200mm lens will definitely do better than this!

Oh wow Jesus!! 

I saw the star adventurer mount, but then thought about the cost of tripod and lens etc on top so moved away.

But having had another look can see there’s quite a few variants of that, pro pack and AP packs.

If my existing lens is at least good as a starter then just this mount and £59 tripod would be cool. Is there much difference do you know between the pro pack and astro photo bundle?

Also if went for this type of mount am I right in thinking that in the future scopes like the SW130 wouldn’t be compatible?

 

many thanks

matt

 

[vlaiv]

13 minutes ago, MattGP said:

For me it’s primarily imaging, although not sure my current lenses are much cop for AP only 200mm I think, so keen to get going with something.

Have a look around these forums for images taken with Samyang 135mm F/2 lens for exceptional examples of wide field astrophotography. For starters there is whole thread dedicated to this particular lens:

Point of course being that even 135mm will produce some amazing shots of heavens.

When we talk about AP we don't really talk in terms of focal length (although telescopes and their focal length are integral part of the story) - we talk about arc seconds per pixel - as measure of resolution.

Loosely speaking, we can divide AP into 4 categories - very wide field / milky way and constellation shots, wide field AP, "medium" field AP - although this term is not used very often - probably because it is just AP or regular AP, and high resolution work.

In terms of arc seconds per pixel - it goes something like this: high resolution work would be everything above 1.2-1.4"/px, regular AP would be 2-3"/px up to 1.2-1.4"/px, wide field ap would be above 3"/px and really wide field / Milky way shots and constellations is no longer thought in terms of angular resolution per pixel but in terms of Field of view - more than about 5-6 degrees and we can start fitting constellations into FOV.

Just for a comparison 200mm lens paired with Canon 500d will have ~4.8"/px so it fits perfectly to wide field category, and if you want - you can also do really wide field by dropping to something like 50mm or smaller FLs.

[MattGP]

1 minute ago, vlaiv said:

Have a look around these forums for images taken with Samyang 135mm F/2 lens for exceptional examples of wide field astrophotography. For starters there is whole thread dedicated to this particular lens:

Point of course being that even 135mm will produce some amazing shots of heavens.

When we talk about AP we don't really talk in terms of focal length (although telescopes and their focal length are integral part of the story) - we talk about arc seconds per pixel - as measure of resolution.

Loosely speaking, we can divide AP into 4 categories - very wide field / milky way and constellation shots, wide field AP, "medium" field AP - although this term is not used very often - probably because it is just AP or regular AP, and high resolution work.

In terms of arc seconds per pixel - it goes something like this: high resolution work would be everything above 1.2-1.4"/px, regular AP would be 2-3"/px up to 1.2-1.4"/px, wide field ap would be above 3"/px and really wide field / Milky way shots and constellations is no longer thought in terms of angular resolution per pixel but in terms of Field of view - more than about 5-6 degrees and we can start fitting constellations into FOV.

Just for a comparison 200mm lens paired with Canon 500d will have ~4.8"/px so it fits perfectly to wide field category, and if you want - you can also do really wide field by dropping to something like 50mm or smaller FLs.

Many thanks for this, whilst it in places felt like you was talking Dutch, that goes along with a previous comment to read an AP book as I have a lot to learn and digest.

Still can’t believe my current set up will get me going (well once have a mount and tripod). Will check the one you’ve linked above too.

 

thanks

matt

[Nerf_Caching]

8 minutes ago, MattGP said:

Oh wow Jesus!! 

I saw the star adventurer mount, but then thought about the cost of tripod and lens etc on top so moved away.

But having had another look can see there’s quite a few variants of that, pro pack and AP packs.

If my existing lens is at least good as a starter then just this mount and £59 tripod would be cool. Is there much difference do you know between the pro pack and astro photo bundle?

Also if went for this type of mount am I right in thinking that in the future scopes like the SW130 wouldn’t be compatible?

 

many thanks

matt

 

If you do get the Star adventurer, get the pro pack. It includes a declination bracket and counterweights should you wish to mount a telescope on it. I occasionally plop my Skywatcher evostar 72ed refractor on top, hook my dslr (a Canon 650d unmodified) up to it and shoot away! Really good mount for wide-field stuff. I suggest you forget about the 130pds for now and start with a small wide-field refractor(preferably less then 400mm in focal length, although I could just get by using 420mm). They are forgiving in tracking accuracy and easier to balance too. If your budget can't accommodate a telescope at this price point, just stick with your current lenses for now. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Nerf_Caching

[MattGP]

3 minutes ago, Nerf_Caching said:

If you do get the Star adventurer, get the pro pack. It includes a declination bracket and counterweights should you wish to mount a telescope on it. I occasionally plop my Skywatcher evostar 72ed refractor on top, hook my dslr (a Canon 650d unmodified) up to it and shoot away! Really good mount for wide-field stuff.

Excellent cheers, that’s the kind of set up I was imagining, what’s the evostar like imagewise? Was looking at a thread about 80s and I was quite surprised by the images obatained. 

[Adreneline]

23 minutes ago, Nerf_Caching said:

not sure my current lenses are much cop for AP only 200mm

Not sure I would agree - 200mm is a great lens especially for many nebula targets - M31 also works well but other galaxy targets would be disappointing perhaps. I rarely use my 600/510mm ED80DS.

I took this with my Canon 200mm at f2.8

Good luck with your deliberations!

 

[MattGP]

1 minute ago, Adreneline said:

.

I took this with my Canon 200mm at f2.8

Good luck with your deliberations!

 

This has been a real eye opener, I can’t quite believe a 200mm lens can achieve that!

I’ve never been particularly impressed with that lens even for landscapes, so always just used the smaller one, hence thought it wouldn’t be much cop.

Now to see it could achieve that is amazing 🙏

[JamesF]

This thread might be worth a read to give you ideas about what is possible with what kit:

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/140123-budget-dso-showcase/

James

[Adreneline]

10 minutes ago, MattGP said:

I can’t quite believe a 200mm lens can achieve that!

This was taken paired with an ASI1600-Pro which is a fairly large sensor cooled camera. The Samyang 135mm is also an excellent lens but again very much better suited to larger targets, e.g. nebula.

[happy-kat]

You can pick up M42 fit lenses used for good prices (canon EOs to m42 adaptor needed), the Takumar's can be nice with minimal stopping down required. Search on here for imaging examples.

Canon 200mm f2.8 is quite steep even second hand £350+, the Takumar is around £50-75

Edited February 23, 2020 by happy-kat

[Chris]

Get a star tracker to use with your 500D. Something like a Skywatcher Star Adventurer or iOptron Skyguider Pro (both within budget) Lenses are great for AP so don't worry there. Plenty of targets with a 28mm, 50mm, 135mm, 200mm lens etc. Plus these mounts allow for auto guiding if you want to push the focal length even further and use something like a small ED refractor with around 300-400mm focal length.

 

[MattGP]

15 minutes ago, happy-kat said:

You can pick up M42 fit lenses used for good prices (canon EOs to m42 adaptor needed), the Takumar's can be nice with minimal stopping down required. Search on here for imaging examples.

Canon 200mm f2.8 is quite steep even second hand £350+, the Takumar is around £50-75

Ooh what’s the score on m42? Not seen these yet

[MattGP]

12 minutes ago, Lockie said:

Get a star tracker to use with your 500D. Something like a Skywatcher Star Adventurer or iOptron Skyguider Pro (both within budget) Lenses are great for AP so don't worry there. Plenty of targets with a 28mm, 50mm, 135mm, 200mm lens etc. Plus these mounts allow for auto guiding if you want to push the focal length even further and use something like a small ED refractor with around 300-400mm focal length.

 

I think I am definitely leaning towards the star adventure pro pack, guessing their standard £59 tripod is ok? 

[Chris]

Just now, MattGP said:

I think I am definitely leaning towards the star adventure pro pack, guessing their standard £59 tripod is ok? 

It's fine for the money and certainly does the job. If I was being critical the black painted ali chips real easy but this is only cosmetic and it's only 59 quid!

Having owned a Star Adventurer I can vouch for it's performance per £. Retailors sell a lorry load of them for a reason  

[MattGP]

Must be said all, my head hurts a lot less now and I believe I know where I’m heading to start, so using existing Canon 500d with 200mm (also have a 50mm), couple this with the Star Adventurer Pro Pack and Tripod 🙏and within initial budget 🙌

So now I’m guessing am going to have to take a crash course in subs, darks, flats, bias and stacking to name but  a few 😱

many thanks all

matt

Edited February 23, 2020 by MattGP

[Nerf_Caching]

9 hours ago, MattGP said:

Excellent cheers, that’s the kind of set up I was imagining, what’s the evostar like imagewise? Was looking at a thread about 80s and I was quite surprised by the images obatained. 

Getting this scope was arguably the best decision I've ever made! Image quality is excellent with no obvious chromatic aberration. It is also quite lightweight and comes with a case, all for a reasonable price. 

[carastro]

Delete, answered my own question. 

Carole 

Edited February 24, 2020 by carastro

[rwilkey]

Hi Matt, if you can, get a copy of 'Making Every Photon Count' by Steve Richards, it is the bible of AP, found here: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

[Raph-in-the-sky]

48 minutes ago, rwilkey said:

Hi Matt, if you can, get a copy of 'Making Every Photon Count' by Steve Richards, it is the bible of AP, found here: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

I hear a lot about this book. Do you think it's suitable for someone who has no experience in photography whatsoever ? (basically I know which button you re supposed to push to take a pic... that's it)