Oh dear - my equipment is naff.

[Spacehead]

Ive just put my little motors on my eq5 with a 200p on it.  Chuffed to high heaven.

Now I find out that my DSLR (old) EOS 400d cannon is not sensitive to Ha.

I was really hoping to get the horsehead - it didnt have to be fantastic - just an outline even.  But no - I am advised I would be better with a new camera and guiding instead of tracking.

Is there nothing I can do to even hope for a shadow of the horsehead with what I have got?

Either way - what else am I going to miss out on?  I really wanted to start off with
Andromeda, Horsehead + Flame + Orion Neb, Pleiades - they were my main "things" to learn with.
Is there any point to any of them with an EOS 400D and tracking instead of guiding?

Cheers - feeling down.

[cosmojaydee]

The horsehead itself is dominated by HA  most if not all HA is blocked by the filters on a DSLR, but this guy managed it with a DSLR 

 

[D4N]

Pleiades is all reflection nebulosity so will show up well in a DSLR.

If you want to do emission nebulae then you really need to modify the camera to be able to detect Ha well, you will be able to get a better image with one hour of data than you would with 10 hours on an unmodified camera.  It is possible with an unmodified camera but it takes a lot of patience.

[xtreemchaos]

you can still catch the horsehead without a modded cam, but not as good as a modded one, just get as many subs as you can and you could catch the outline, ive caught it before.  charl.

 

[cosmojaydee]

1 minute ago, D4N said:

Pleiades is all reflection nebulosity so will show up well in a DSLR.

If you want to do emission nebulae then you really need to modify the camera to be able to detect Ha well, you will be able to get a better image with one hour of data than you would with 10 hours on an unmodified camera.  It is possible with an unmodified camera but it takes a lot of patience.

Yeah , you would be better sticking to Reflection Nebs, galaxies and open clusters, other than that you would have to mod your camera or think of a new/different camera, and filters 

[Eri]

hope this helps you but I don't know how much difference there is between your 400D and my 700D

I've been hitting up Andromeda, triangulum fairly well have managed to capture the rosetta guided 5mins subs http://www.astrobin.com/273422/?nc=user really well for only being at it a year now, this is my horsehead from earlier this year unguided http://www.astrobin.com/235245/C/?nc=user and I've just kicked off a 5min guided attempt to capture both horsehead and flame in one frame. I also re-visited the Pleiades  as a 2 pane moasic tonight and will process that over the weekend which at first glance looks like it could be very good for me.

 

My suggestion would be test it, find your max sub length tracked then grab an hour or so of data on andromeda or which ever you fancy first

[steppenwolf]

Don't be too despondent, there is plenty that you can still do provided that you work within the limitations of your equipment and all equipment has limitations! Globular clusters and galaxies are well within your reach but you should stick with the brighter ones, keep your exposures to under a minute and take lots of images to stack. The reason that I suggest the shorter exposures is that you have a relatively heavy telescope with a 1000mm focal length on a fairly light duty unguided mount so you don't want it all to have to work too hard!

I have captured the Horsehead Nebula with an unmodified EOS 300D - it was hard work but doable although I did have to take much longer exposures than I am recommending. The Pleiades can easily be captured with your setup but not quite the whole cluster at one time because of the long focal length but more than enough to enjoy. The Andromeda Galaxy is a huge object and requires a focal length of around 500mm with your DSLR camera to get it all in diagonally but you'll certainly manage the core nicely.

The Hercules Globular Cluster is well worth a try in the early evening.

[Mr Spock]

A 200p is a challenge even with a better mount! Keep the exposures short and stay away from any wind and you should get something.

We'd all like nice kit but sometimes have to make do. Just remember what you lack in kit you can make up for with skill and patience

[Adamchiv]

Are there any hydrogen alpha filters that work on a dslr or are they all for ccd?

[Dave In Vermont]

Hmmm..... I always thought B33 (The H-H) responded most to Hb-filters...? Not knowing my DSLR's from a sketch-pad, I'll be happy to read, though.

Dave

[D4N]

5 hours ago, Adamchiv said:

Are there any hydrogen alpha filters that work on a dslr or are they all for ccd?

You can use a Ha filter with a DSLR but be sure to do so for the right reasons.

The Ha filter will block light from reaching the green and blue photo sites so three quarters of the sensitivity of the camera is lost.

It will also block a lot of red light.

The effect of this will make frame and focus a lot more difficult and on an unmodified camera nigh on impossible.

 

The usual reason for using a Ha filter on a DSLR would be to be able to acquire data when there is too much light pollution to do so otherwise.

A UHC filter is a lot less savage and may be a better option for a DSLR.

[ronin]

An inmodified Canon will typically pass about 15-20% of the Ha, however looking at some transmission graphs I have the older ones 300D and 350D passed some 30% and the D30 passes even more upat the 50%. Not sure if the sensor is more sensative to the red end as well and there is also what the software does to the red levels. Mind you that the software may not get applied to the red as the imags are RAW and I guess that means untouched by software.processing. Canon it seems used a selection of internal filters in their cameras. (Seem to have lost a link to a second set of DSLR filter curves)

Also I thought that the Horsehead is a dark nebula, so nothing in the visible area sort of escapes it, you need IR to see into the nebula. It seems that the Ha is the light behind or around it that is framing the nebula bit ? So when you say: "just an outline even." that is what you get, it a sillhouette and a small one at that.

Will say that it is small bit of the the overall molecular cloud.

I would keep going. Not sure what the exposures are as in duration and number, but assuming good PA and therefore reasonable tracking try 60 second exposures and spend a couple of hours getting say 30, 50 or 60. Allow a decent cooling time between exposures. May as well reduce anything that could deliver not so good images, so try 60 second exposure and 60 second wait. Thats 2 minutes an exposure - presumes the noise reduction is off.

Suppose the approach is: With what I have got how do I capture the Horsehead?

The catch is that there is always something better. Go back 15 years and you would be using film.

[Spacehead]

Well Im feeling a bit more positive - I really dont understand focal length at 500mm with a dslr?  I have no choice - all I do is screw it onto the the adaptor on the scope with no cam lens, no nothing - just the camera case straight onto the scope via the adaptor and click away after trying to focus.

See pic - cam just clips onto the scope with nothing between it (cam) and the mirror inside the scope (the one at an angle).

I can get lovely shots of the pleiades with this set up - here is one below.  But I am missing the "blue glow clouds" I have seen in other peoples photos.  Will getting 50-100 subs and stacking them show the clouds up - given a "single" shot quality as seen below?

My andromeda seems to fit diagonally - as below - do you guys think I can get some detail with a stack of images like the one shown below?  Of a similar quality, say 50-100 subs?

Should I do everything in raw or jpg?

 

[iapa]

I have a modded Canon 600D DSLR - which has the filter removed, reasonable inexpesive. There are companies who will do this for you. Or, check buy/sell or a well known auction site. I paid just over £200 for mine

A single 30s exposure taken on South Ronaldsay in October this year.

 

[Jonk]

I did this image at the beginning of the year with a modded 1100D and 200mm lens...

[iapa]

1 hour ago, Spacehead said:

Well Im feeling a bit more positive - I really dont understand focal length at 500mm with a dslr?  I have no choice - all I do is screw it onto the the adaptor on the scope with no cam lens, no nothing - just the camera case straight onto the scope via the adaptor and click away after trying to focus.

See pic - cam just clips onto the scope with nothing between it (cam) and the mirror inside the scope (the one at an angle).

I can get lovely shots of the pleiades with this set up - here is one below.  But I am missing the "blue glow clouds" I have seen in other peoples photos.  Will getting 50-100 subs and stacking them show the clouds up - given a "single" shot quality as seen below?

My andromeda seems to fit diagonally - as below - do you guys think I can get some detail with a stack of images like the one shown below?  Of a similar quality, say 50-100 subs?

Should I do everything in raw or jpg?

I take RAW and JPG with Long Exposure Noise Reduction is turned of. Stacking is done using th eRAW images - I keep the JPG to 'show off' if I get something hard decent to share.

It does not look as if the camera is controlled in any way? Is it connected to a PC or have you a remote control attached? Either would reduce vibration caused when you push the button - as would setting the  longest possible delay if you have neither of this option available. 

Reflector suffer from a distortion of image towards the edge of th mirror - a coma corrector can help rectify this - that looks like a 'trail' running from the star to the outer edge of the mirror.

Per previous advice, take an image at 60sec, if stars are young, for  75 the wise reduce to 45 - then which ever way you go, split the difference until you are at the edge of training stars int eh image, then (my preference) reduce by 10%.

I leave 'expsuretime x 1.5' as an interval between exposures. Body temp still increases, but not as much as no interval.

 

[iapa]

7 minutes ago, Jonk said:

I did this image at the beginning of the year with a modded 1100D and 200mm lens...

ouch...

which lens what that with? How many exposure at which ISO/exposure time

Nice....

[D4N]

I think your images have more data in them than you think, I just did a quick levels and curves on your M31 in Pixelmator on my iPad (really not the best processing tool!) and you can see a lot more detail.  You need to turn the camera a bit to fit it on though.  With more data stacked, better framing and processing you could have a nice image.

Your stars are wobbly on M31 but not on M45, this would indicate you may have nudged the mount during the exposure or it could just have  been a bit of wind.  You need to be very careful not to move near it while exposing.

Always shoot in raw, only convert to jpeg or png after you have finished processing.

 

[Jonk]

5 minutes ago, iapa said:

which lens what that with? How many exposure at which ISO/exposure time

It was a modified Canon 1100D, with Canon 70-200 2.8 lens, 25 x 180 seconds + 10 x 5 seconds, iso 1600, with a CLS filter.

[iapa]

6 minutes ago, Jonk said:

It was a modified Canon 1100D, with Canon 70-200 2.8 lens, 25 x 180 seconds + 10 x 5 seconds, iso 1600, with a CLS filter.

A proper lens then. I've an f5.6 which I gave up on - but that was based on limitations of Alt-Az mount (load and image rotation).

@Spacehead, if you have one, and my experience says most DSLR owner do have a range of lenses, a longish focal length lens may be a route to take as well. A 300m will give a larger fieldd of view than the 130EQ, and an affordable f5.6 is not too far from the f5 of the OTA you are using? Give you an idea of what alternatives there are, and where you may want to upgrade/replace?

[Stub Mandrel]

M42 f3.5 135mm Zeiss Sonnar and Pentax Takumar lenses are cheap  affordable econdhand and outstanding for astro work as you can use them wide open (make the most of shorter exposures) and they are still pin-sharp.

The T-mount 400mm f6.3 PrinzGalaxy 400mm tele is often on eBay with prices from £30 to £100, wait for a cheap one, and they can do great things.

The most you may need to do is violet ring removal which gets rid of UV overspill on the brighter stars, easy to do in processing.

You can get M42 and t-mount to canon adaptors for about £5 - cheap enough to fit one permanently to each lens.

[heathenwoods]

Hi Spacehead, it is possible! (But don't expect much!)

I've a 6" reflector that I use in my back yard - in a town - and take photos on it using a 1000D. It's on a EQ5 with motors. The 1000D isn't modded. I've got a **** filter on the camera adapter. I've not touched my 'scope for a couple of years but suddenly decided to drag it out of the garage on Monday night. The batteries had some juice in them. I got about 20mins on M42 on Monday and decided to have a go at the horsehead last night - I only managed 20 mins and processed about 17mins worth in DSS. The exposures were 20 secs at ISO800. About 10mins of darks. After stacking I mostly just played with the curves and levels in photoshop.

As you can see neither of them are going to win any awards but I can make out the horsehead!

When I stopped I felt a bit disgruntled that I wasn't getting great images. I also fly fish and there's a good UK forum dedicated to that. There are some guys on there who post about their great days - catching (and releasing) 100+ trout and grayling. A good day for me is maybe 15. For a while I felt like I was a bad angler until I had a massive reality check and realised that (i) they fish different rivers and mine simply don't hold those numbers. They fish nearly every day and I manage once a fortnight - I was making a comparison that I was never going to come off favourably in.

The purpose of my long ramble is: I could get downhearted that my photos aren't great compared to other people's. BUT I give myself a little punch and remind myself I don't have the same equipment or the same quality of light. I don't have the experience. Rather than worrying that my horsehead isn't 'good' I had to remind myself that I have *just produced an image of a dark nebula*!!

Give yourself a chance and time to learn a few tricks. Stack. Even 20 subs can make a difference. 50 subs a bigger difference. Check out some of the web/Youtube guides on reducing noise and gradients. You'll get there sooner than you think.

[Spacehead]

These replies have really given me hope!  I mean at the end of the day, who wants to stand outside at 1am for 3 hours in minus 2 degrees only to end up with a pile of junk like I did the other night.

(smiling really)

Ok - I have learned a lot here.  Thanks everyone.  I will start my next session by setting up RAW on my camera - that would help wouldn't it lol.

I think to practice, I will shoot Andromeda making it fit by turning the cam.  This way I am getting used to the following and hopefully will be more ready for a go at HHead.  (Although I completely understand not to expect much).

Polar Alignment, Darks, Flats, Different ISO's, Different Exposure times, Stacking and tweaking.  I think I jumped the gun a bit given my setup.

All is smooooth   Cheers all.
 

[ronin]

Polar Alignment, Darks, Flats, Different ISO's, Different Exposure times, Stacking and tweaking.  I think I jumped the gun a bit given my setup. 

Polar alignment is necessary simply to get better tracking and so a better exposure.

Darks are easy, put cap on camera, put camera in the fridge, take say 1/3 to 1/2 the number of darks as you had exposures.

Flats - forget for now, add these later if you ever feel up to it.

Different ISO's, no keep the ISO the same for everything.

Different Exposure time, no again keep the exposure time the same for everything.

Stacking is what Deep Sky Stacker is for.

Tweaking, that is the processing just get some stacked results first then tweak them at some time.

Keep the ISO and the exposure time the same for the exposures and the darks constant and the same. I think that at most stacking software (DSS ) work happier if it is common throughout. DSS will stack jpeg images, so initially at least you can go get say 20 exposures at ISO 800 at say 40 seconds each exposure, then head home, cap the camera set the number of exposures to 10 and put camera in the fridge to get 10 darks (same exposure time and same ISO). Then you have 20+10 to load into DSS. Until you get something out of DSS with the previous idea I suggest to use normal jpeg's from the camera. A few sets of stacked jpegs will give you an idea how it is all going. You can try the HH, M45, M31, C14 and whatever else happens to wander into view, no doubt M42. At this stage it is play and see what happens and how you get on.

[ollypenrice]

On 30/11/2016 at 04:23, Dave In Vermont said:

Hmmm..... I always thought B33 (The H-H) responded most to Hb-filters...? Not knowing my DSLR's from a sketch-pad, I'll be happy to read, though.

Dave

In visual observing, yes, because the H beta line lies in the blue, which the eye sees well. In photography (and photography really made the HH nebula the icon which it is) the signal behind the HH is strong in Ha, so the dusty HH shows well in front of this signal - if you have it.

What photographers and visual observers need on this target is the glow behind the Horse.

Olly