Newt v Frac - The Rumble in Derbyshire

[mikeDnight]

[nightfisher]

nice comparison Derek, sounds like the evo is a good choice providing you can mount it correctly 

[DRT]

1 hour ago, nightfisher said:

nice comparison Derek, sounds like the evo is a good choice providing you can mount it correctly 

It certainly is. I have noticed a huge difference with this set-up compared to the Helios 6" F8 and Skytee II that I had last year. This is much more stable and the dampening much quicker. I think the 15" Losmandy bar helps but the sheer weight of the AZ EQ6 must be helping.

[DRT]

3 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

So what should I point them at tonight?

[CraigT82]

1 hour ago, DRT said:

So what should I point them at tonight?

Hopefully away from any aircraft... you may trigger an 'incident'!

The big Evo is a whole lot of scope for the money (I am feeling a serious pull towards a big achro!) but the skyliner does respond well to a few mods... You should chuck a cooling fan on it and go for a rematch  .  That warm boundary air can soften the image a bit

[DRT]

you might have hit on something there Craig. 

The Evo spent the day in a very cool place before going on the mount in the evening whereas the 200P was in my baking hot shed all day. 

Re-match!!!!!!!

[Pig]

Try some double stars with low separation  or triple stars

 

[mikeDnight]

1 hour ago, DRT said:

So what should I point them at tonight?

The 13.2 magnitude star on the periphery of the ring nebula can be interesting as it isn't always as obvious in a larger scope,  and sometimes blatantly obvious in a smaller scope. And what about the Veil nebula and also the North American Nebula & Pelican Nebula in Cygnus, if you have either Olll or UHC  filters available. All good comparison objects for the scopes under test.

Mike ?

[DRT]

14 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

The 13.2 magnitude star on the periphery of the ring nebula can be interesting as it isn't always as obvious in a larger scope,  and sometimes blatantly obvious in a smaller scope. And what about the Veil nebula and also the North American Nebula & Pelican Nebula in Cygnus, if you have either Olll or UHC  filters available. All good comparison objects for the scopes under test.

Mike ?

Ok, so I am rubbish at knowing where things are and have limited viewing due to trees and rooftops. 

I can see from SE to W quite clearly. Elevation is limited down to about where Mars currently reaches its highest point in the sky.  East and North are no hope due to 30ft conifers five yards from my viewing spot. NW is fine but needs to be higher than my southerly view. 

So, please give me some targets to go at

[Stu]

How about M13, M3 and M92. Any good?

[Stu]

M5 and Izar (Epsilon Bootes), you could try the owl nebula (M97) with an OIII. Not sure how you will fair with galaxies, probably badly but M81/82 might be worth trying for later.

[Chris]

I feel your pain Derek, my new house has slightly darker skies but east and west are blocked close to zenith, and mainly blocked down to 35 degrees north and south. 

How about trying to detect the cores of M51 as well as M81/82. If you do have a Oiii I second the Owl neb that Stu suggested

EDIT: Scrap M51, I was forgetting what time of year it was!

[DRT]

Thanks guys, I will hunt those down. Still very bright here but should be darker just after midnight. Galaxies are just not possible at this time of year from here :-(

[Stu]

Yep, I suspected as much. Same here really. Stick to the globs, planetary nebulae (with OIII) and doubles.

[Stu]

You could also try the Cat's Eye Nebula and M57 if it's in view over your trees. If it is then the Double Double would be worth a look

[John]

Delta Cygni seems quite demanding at the moment. It's quite an unequal brightness double which adds to the challenge.

Zeta Hercules is another that can be frustratingly difficult to split.

 

[Stu]

1 hour ago, John said:

Delta Cygni seems quite demanding at the moment. It's quite an unequal brightness double which adds to the challenge.

Zeta Hercules is another that can be frustratingly difficult to split.

 

Zeta Herc is my nemesis John, I've never managed it! ??

[Telescope40]

Cracking thread Derek. Enjoyed every word !!! 

Clear skies !!  John 

[John]

8 hours ago, Stu said:

Zeta Herc is my nemesis John, I've never managed it! ??

It's about the toughest that I can manage Stu.

With my ED120 at 250x-300x the secondary looks like a tiny grey blob practically touching the edge of the primary airey disk at around the 5:00 o clock position (refractor view). The Tak FC100 shows almost the same view I was pleased to find.

The secondary is just inside the 1st diffraction ring of the primary but it it's too strongly defined or the scope is not 100% focused that 1st ring can easily mask the secondary star.

[xtreemchaos]

what a interesting comparison Derek, you need to even out the targets mate, so far there quite a bit in favor of the frac, id  write all the M objects on peices of paper and if there available  from your location ,randomly select. i wonder what the new price of each scope is? dare i say the frac is a lot more pricey, you see im on the fence between fracs and newts, it a case of horses for courses for me. thanks for rasing a very interesting subject.  charl.

[chiltonstar]

58 minutes ago, John said:

It's about the toughest that I can manage Stu.

With my ED120 at 250x-300x the secondary looks like a tiny grey blob practically touching the edge of the primary airey disk at around the 5:00 o clock position (refractor view). The Tak FC100 shows almost the same view I was pleased to find.

The secondary is just inside the 1st diffraction ring of the primary but it it's too strongly defined or the scope is not 100% focused that 1st ring can easily mask the secondary star.

Hmm.....seems to be just on the edge with 120mm aperture doesn't it?

Two simulations with Aberrator, 120mm and 180mm, both at x350:-  Chris

 

[Stu]

45 minutes ago, xtreemchaos said:

what a interesting comparison Derek, you need to even out the targets mate, so far there quite a bit in favor of the frac, id  write all the M objects on peices of paper and if there available  from your location ,randomly select. i wonder what the new price of each scope is? dare i say the frac is a lot more pricey, you see im on the fence between fracs and newts, it a case of horses for courses for me. thanks for rasing a very interesting subject.  charl.

Trouble is, the targets that would favour the extra aperture are probably too tricky at this time of year due to the lack of darkness. I suspect this 'fight' may go on for a full fifteen rounds ?

[spaceboy]

I now wished I'd have compared my EVO150 against my Explorer 150P. I think even with the lack of a central obstruction in the EVO 2" of light grasp is a lot to give up to the 200P. From what I have been informed the central obstruction in the newt has no ill effect on the aperture and only goes to reduce contrast. In the case of a Newtonian the secondary support also has a negative effect on the image introducing diffraction spikes but I have had nights where the seeing and transparency of the sky has been so perfect that I noted in the 150p that the diffraction spikes disappeared altogether giving almost identical views to a refractor. I dare say the OTA had cooled to an optimum level also reducing any ill effect from thermal currents with in the open tube. 

So I guess the EVO will win on all targets requiring stars as points of light such as doubles, variables and the like along with those targets that benefit from greater contrast where as the 200p will win on targets that benefit from light grasp such as globs and galaxies.

My guess the best middle of the road targets would be nebula and open clusters. In saying nebula's I would vote for those that already possess some surface brightness and do not require any filtration.  Off the top of my head I'd say the double cluster, the summer beehive, NGC7789, coat hanger, M57, M27, M97, M27, eskimo (if around), blue snow ball, blinking neb. I'd also throw in some of the more separated double stars so that they do not overly favour the EVO. Mizar, SAO 21855, Albireo, the double double etc.

As said already though it's horses for courses and why I often recommend to all 'Newt vs frak' threads is to get both.

[xtreemchaos]

3 minutes ago, Stu said:

Trouble is, the targets that would favour the extra aperture are probably too tricky at this time of year due to the lack of darkness. I suspect this 'fight' may go on for a full fifteen rounds ?

 yer mate agreed its a hard one, maybe could be a 2 part rematch in winter " thriller in the dales" charl.

[Stu]

1 hour ago, John said:

It's about the toughest that I can manage Stu.

With my ED120 at 250x-300x the secondary looks like a tiny grey blob practically touching the edge of the primary airey disk at around the 5:00 o clock position (refractor view). The Tak FC100 shows almost the same view I was pleased to find.

The secondary is just inside the 1st diffraction ring of the primary but it it's too strongly defined or the scope is not 100% focused that 1st ring can easily mask the secondary star.

Thanks John, I suspect it's a case of not trying enough mag. I'll set up the Tak on the GP and give it a go with a bit more welly ?