Triangulum Galaxy

[Herzy]

Last night I got to take my 90mm MAK outside to look for some objects. I found M1 and it was very underwhelming and was only a smudge. I then went to Andromeda and a few star clusters, all of which were impressive. However when I went to the Triangulum Galaxy I felt like I was seeing it but I think it might've been wishful thinking. I couldn't really see any nebulae but I swear I was somehow seeing spiral arms it's really weird. Am I able to see it with my telescope it was it just a placebo effect. 

On a side note does anyone know if there is a star cluster a little below Sirius at about 9:00pm? I found it by accident while searching for Sirius and I looked in many different apps to try to find what it was. I used the computerized function in my mount to identify the object and it said that it was M42, which it clearly wasn't... Idk all I know was it looked really cool and I want to know what it is so I can go back to it!

[John]

Messier 33 is faint at the best of times with a 90mm scope. With the moon in the sky as it's been for the past few nights here I doubt even my 12" scope would show it.

I've seen the spiral structure in M33 with a 16" - 20" scope from a dark site and just get suggestions of it with my 12" scope on a dark moonless night from my back garden.

 

[pipnina]

M31 is visible under moonlight (provided it isn't too close & you are shielded from the moon). But you will see the core only.

M33 could  be visible under moonlight but it would be the core alone I'd hazard. And since the core of M33 is far smaller than the one in M31 (When I viewed it, it was a tiny little dot of brighter-ness)  it could be mistaken for a star if viewing at low power. M33 is still a fairly easy object, I saw it (more than the core) in my 9x50 finder under... mag 5-ish-maybe-unconfirmed skies. I didn't manage M1, though, so it's possible your skies were brighter where M31 was?

 

[DevonSkies]

The cluster just below Sirius was probably M41.

[bomberbaz]

I have seen M33 just the once under ink black skies in Scotland. This was with a 12" scope and it was fantastic.

I rather think it was wishful viewing as I have tried since with a large aperture scope under dark skies and not managed even a hint of it since although I could be wrong.

[SilverAstro]

55 minutes ago, Herzy said:

does anyone know if there is a star cluster a little below Sirius at about 9:00pm?

M41 (??) is south-ish from Sirius

 

[Herzy]

Yea it seems to be M41, idk why it didn't show M41 when I tried to identify it :/ and thanks for all the relplies, I'll be going somewhere dark next Saturday and I'll see what I can make of the Galaxy!

[Herzy]

I don't get it though, how could I not see it if it's magnitude is around 5? I've seen star clusters with a overall magnitude of 10

[Sam]

2 minutes ago, Herzy said:

I don't get it though, how could I not see it if it's magnitude is around 5? I've seen star clusters with a overall magnitude of 10

It's because the brightness is kind of of spread out, rather than a point source like a star. I seen some of the knotty detail in the spiral arms through a 12" dob at a very dark site. It's certainly an averted vision object. One of the things I found was that due to the size it's quite hard to notice the subtle increase in brightness of the background - you can actually be looking at it and not realise.

[andrew63]

Most off these objects are just faint smudges in small telescopes - still nice to see though. M41 below Sirius is a fine sight though, even in moonlight  !

http://freestarcharts.com/20-guides/messier/105-messier-41-m41-open-cluster

 

andrew

 

[Size9Hex]

Dark transparent skies seem the key to unlocking M33. It's hit and miss with a 10 inch scope from my somewhat light polluted back yard. 2 miles up the road into the countryside, I bag it easily with 10x50 binos, and can also see the orientation. The time I took my scope to a dark side, I got the best of both, and like you, my brain sensed something spirally, although I couldn't pin it down.

I find making notes helps when I'm not confident of an observation. Be specific in the notes. Is the spiral clockwise or anti-clockwise, how many spiral arms, and dark stripes, bright spots, direction of elongation etc? Compare to photos later, and you could be surprised at what you've correctly spotted even if you weren't confident at the time.

[Stu]

4 hours ago, Herzy said:

I don't get it though, how could I not see it if it's magnitude is around 5? I've seen star clusters with a overall magnitude of 10

It's worth understanding the concept of surface brightness. Stars are point sources so their magnitude is as stated. Extended objects such as galaxies or nebulae may appear to be quite bright from their magnitude, but the light is spread out over the area of the object so they appear much dimmer. It's a bit like having a torch with a variable beam spread, when focused on a small area the light is bright, when spread out the light is far dimmer.

With these extended objects, once the sky background approaches the surface brightness level, they become impossible to see, regardless of the scope you are using.

I've seen M33 and M101 in binoculars from dark sites as large oval glows, subtle but there with good dark adaptation. Transparency is key to this too, if the sky is at all hazy you won't see them.

[Paul73]

 

I really struggled with M33 in my 10" dob. It turns out that I had been looking straight through it!

The strange thing was that it was a relatively easy spot in my 10x50 binoculars (no moon, darkish back garden). Once I had spotted it in the bins, it became much much easier in the scope. Even the merest suggestion of spirals on a really good night.

Paul

PS. I belive the the Placebo effect is called "Averted Imagination" in the astro context.?

[bomberbaz]

To confirm when I saw it, the spiral shape was clearly visible but I was kind of surprised and confused at the same time as I wasn't sure if that's what I should have been seeing. 

As others have already said there was structure but very low light levels from within the structure. Also the conditions were that good I was told it could be a Horsehead night (very dark and clear) although later the wind dropped and moisture built up ruining that.

[Paul73]

Steve

which scope were you using? 

Paul

[Stu]

1 hour ago, bomberbaz said:

To confirm when I saw it, the spiral shape was clearly visible but I was kind of surprised and confused at the same time as I wasn't sure if that's what I should have been seeing. 

As others have already said there was structure but very low light levels from within the structure. Also the conditions were that good I was told it could be a Horsehead night (very dark and clear) although later the wind dropped and moisture built up ruining that.

Transparency seems to be the key, so if it was a 'Horsehead' night then you are likely to have had excellent views.

Best I've seen it was with the Edge HD 8" under dark Devon skies. Nice detail visible including NGC604 towards the edge of the spiral.

[swamp thing]

Messier 33 is large, around half a degree in size so does not require giant optics to see it well. What it needs are dark transparent skies. 
The 90mm the OP used is ample to be able to see it.
Large objects like this are well suited to small apertures where less magnification is required. 
To see small details within the galaxy a larger aperture is best although NGC604 can be picked out with most backyard scopes from moderately dark skies.
Have fun out there  

[D4N]

M33 is just about visible from where I live naked eye so long as it is a moonless winter night.

I use it as a measure of how good a night it is going to be, if I can see it without the binos then it will be good

M33 makes a nice binocular target and I have even seen it under light pollution with binos but the details get lost.

From a dark location it is great with binos but it is very easy to look straight through it with the scope as its brightness gets spread over the whole field of view even in low power eye pieces.  Sometimes less is more

[bomberbaz]

16 minutes ago, D4N said:

M33 is just about visible from where I live naked eye so long as it is a moonless winter night.

I use it as a measure of how good a night it is going to be, if I can see it without the binos then it will be good

M33 makes a nice binocular target and I have even seen it under light pollution with binos but the details get lost.

From a dark location it is great with binos but it is very easy to look straight through it with the scope as its brightness gets spread over the whole field of view even in low power eye pieces.  Sometimes less is more

intersting, I will bear this in mind next time I give it a bash. Might be worth a go with the mini dob and a 9mm EP (x20) 1.35 tfov and a 2.5mm exit pupil or am I missing someting that the Mak would give something and would it be better with a larger exit pupil and tfov?

[YKSE]

Larger exit pupil is key for observing these large and low surface brightness DSO, in addition to the most important factor - the dark sky.

[bomberbaz]

o a 20mm ep (x20) giving a 3.5 tfov amd moreover a 5mm exit pupil would be better then it seems. Surely the aperture has a bearing at ony 100mm is the light gathering capacity going to cut it even in dark skies.?

I wonder because saying a 90mm mak wold do the job seems a little speculative.

TBH this is part of this hobby that still leaves me a little confuddled

[YKSE]

Nopp, aperture has ZERO bearing for seeing M33. As Swampy and Stu have already mentioned, large apertures give larger image scale at the same exit pupil (same exit pupil= same brightness), that is how large apertures brings out more details (those details were too small to be seen in small apertures). Sky darkness, not aperture. determines if you can see M33 or not.

[bomberbaz]

18 minutes ago, YKSE said:

Nopp, aperture has ZERO bearing for seeing M33. As Swampy and Stu have already mentioned, large apertures give larger image scale at the same exit pupil (same exit pupil= same brightness), that is how large apertures brings out more details (those details were too small to be seen in small apertures). Sky darkness, not aperture. determines if you can see M33 or not.

Thank you fo that, you have now presented me with a chalenge 

[Tinker1947]

If you don't have Stellarium download it, this will help you identify any thing else you come across....

http://www.stellarium.org/

[John]

I've seen M33 quite clearly with my 50mm finder and a pair of 7x35 binoculars on a nice dark, transparent night. I've not, as yet, been under conditions good enough to see it with my naked eye though.

I had M33 (and NGC 604) in the eyepiece of my 12" dob at one of my astro society events a few months back. Both objects were quite clear to me, not the best, but not bad but none of my colleagues seemed to be able to see it when they looked through the eyepiece