Why did such a frustrating hobby pick me ?

[robbierankin]

Hello Stargazers lounge forum.

First post so be merciful, I'm new to this star stuff....

March 2014 - I decide to buy my godson a telescope for his birthday. Was recommended a Skywatcher 130p Newtonian.

Bought it, set it up, liked it a lot and kept it for myself. Bought the godson a little Skywatcher refractor instead, (easier for him to manage was my excuse).

August 2014 - Seen the moon, jupiter, saturn etc. Love it. Then I start noticing small fuzzy things in the night sky from time to time.

They don't look like your 'regular' stars and I know my glass isn't dirty. I just can't make out what they are.

I'm so intrigued I decide it's time to upgrade. I buy a Celestron 8" SCT with AVX mount. I read the manuals, learn more about polar alignment, go-to, dew, light filters, cooling down periods, etc. Waiting for a 'usable' sky and eventually get the chance to use it. Spend so long setting it up and making sure things are just right (as right as my limited experience will allow) and get down to viewing.

Extremely underwhelmed.

I reckon I must have done something/s wrong so try again another night. Same thing. What I see in the 130p is not that much different to the 8" SCT except for the views of the moon.

The 8" SCT is too popular a telescope for it to be wrong so it must be me, right ? 

I try several times more until tonight (11/9/14). It's 2am & the sky is clear but the moon is bright. Looking at the stars for 30 mins and then everything fogs up. I've got a (homemade) dew shield on the front so what's occurring? Check the eye-piece. Fogged up. Checked the diagonal thingy mirror - fogged up.  I take the scope and mount apart and put them to bed. I go inside vexed. I'm seriously considering selling up and forgetting this 'hobby'. Surely this is too much work for so little return (in my opinion).

I love the little 130p. It's so easy but i want to see more. There's stuff out there waiting for me to see it - i can feel it.  BUT the effort put into the 8" SCT and the patience waiting for reasonable london nights have dampened my spirit. I'm about to give up - unless there is another way.....

Thank you for your patience and apologies for the long post.

Robbie.

Note: I'm in no way knocking the 8" SCT. I just don't think me & it agree.... 

[alan potts]

Robbie,

Welcome to SGL all the way from Bulgaria. Looks to me that you could have 3 things working against you there when you match one scope against another.

1 London, light polution is very bad.

2 You were observing when the Moon was out, this will wash out the sky eben more.

3 It should be OK but check the collimation. Pick a bright star at about 45 degree from the horizon, focus then defocus it. check you see a shadow of the secondary mirror in the centre of the defocused star. If this is not the case it will need collimation, I have written a thread on this in Getting Started which is pinned.

In my books your best bet is to get out into a darker area when there is no Moon and then you will see what the scope can really do.

Alan.

[Bart]

Alan is right. When the moon is out, it's probably best to observe the moon itself, or planets, or double stars. The bright moon means the background sky is too bright to show up the faint stuff. The 8" will show you lots of stuff, I started with a 6"

You will notice a big difference if you venture out of London though. Jupiter is riding now and is a great planet to observe as it changes hourly.

Stick with it.

The dew is a devil. You must be conscious always to minimise the time the surfaces you mentioned are exposed to the sky unshielded.

Barry

[dick_dangerous]

The skies over London have either been pants or full of moon since you got your 8'' SCT; there haven't been many crisp, clear nights to choose from. Last night was pretty good, but I didn't bother going out because of the full moon - it's amazing what a difference the full moon makes to visibility. I went down to Bushy on Sunday and found that even relatively bright objects like M13 were hard to see. M11 was almost invisible and it's usually one of the most spectacular objects in the sky. Transparency was very off on top of that, so it adds up to a cocktail of frustrating astronomy. Winter is coming though and, barring a repeat of last year's wash-out, it often brings better seeing conditions with it. It could also bring yet more cloud but that's life in the UK. You kind of have to take it where you can, or just have a very dip-in approach to the hobby.

Don't know much about the telescope, but I do know that if dew's a problem then you should take the 'scope inside for a bit to warm it up and get rid of the drops.

Good luck, and here's hoping we get some decent clear skies at some point when it isn't full moon!

DD

[NGC 1502]

Hi and welcome to SGL.

How about getting along to here - http://bakerstreetastro.org.uk/ they meet in Regents Park, will have good tips for astronomy under a very light polluted sky, and lots else I'm sure.

Do hope you stick with the hobby, it's great when you get a good session.   Good tips above.

Regards, Ed.

[cuivenion]

Aren't SCT's a lot more susceptible to dew than a reflector as well? Maybe making a longer dew shield or buying one with a heater would be a good idea?

[ghostdance]

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but relax a little You're doing well since March!The heat death of the universe won't be for awhile so we have a little time to gawk at the show, and what a glorious show it is...price of admission one pair of eyes, one (or two, or indeed more) telescope/binoculars a star chart or two, a good pack of cards (for the cloudy, who-left-the-hot-tap-running? nights) and a whole shovel full of patience. I don't care if what I see isn't like Hubble (you can get one those at FLO by the way!) or that it takes me ages to find or even see fainter objects in my baby dob (that I assume are easier on bigger scopes)and when I do, they're just fuzzies, heck, I'm looking at my next door GALAXIES! I understand and share your enthusiam and to some extent your frustration but this stuff takes time...I'll bet and hope your grandson is really enjoying just seeing the show, so congrats on enabling him to ( you scope-stealer you ).

I'd suggest going to a meet, the Baker St monthly group in Regents Park is commended regularly. Could be inspirational and also give you some tips on dew control etc. Sounds like they're a lot of fun, too.

Keep the faith. It's a great bash out there in the universes and that we can see any of it, dew, bad backs and all..... Well, call us Lucky... Luckyluckylucky.....

Ripley...out.

[kerrylewis]

When i bought my SCT the first thing that I realised that I needed was a dewshield with a heater. Absolutely essential  - especially at the moment. That big exposed lump of glass at the front is a dew magnet. I also endorse everything  others have said. The moon is gradually going from the evening sky at least and that will improve your chances

Good Luck

kery 

[laudropb]

The key word here is patience. Things will get better with practice. If you could get along to Regents park  then the process will be quicker

[robbierankin]

Thank you all for your replies and advice so far.

From the replies I'm thinking I haven't done too much wrong then. It's mainly location and current conditions that are against me 

I bought the scope from Widescreen in london. They've been really helpful with advice etc and also told me of the Baker St meetings. Haven't had the chance to get there yet. Shame it's only once monthly.

Re: Collimation. I would say the SCT is generally well collimated. I do see the correct pattern when using the method Alan Potts describes.

After a nights rest the vexation has subsided and I've decided to be patient.

I just have a niggly feeling that me and the SCT are not the ideal pairing. I wonder if one of those smaller (apo ?) refractor scopes are more suited to me and my visual pursuits. Especially if I have to 'get out of london' to progress.

Thanks again.

Btw - My godson wants the 130p back now. He says I short changed him. I'm under pressure.....

Robbie.

(Skywatcher 130p Newtonian, Celestron 8" SCT & AVX, Helios 10/50 binoculars. 25mm & 10mm EP's that came with the scopes)

[Blazar]

Might be good to set some expectations here as well....dont expect hubble esqe views of nebula etc...all the DSO are pretty much just smudges of blue/ grey. Might be good to have a read of Qualia's excellent post entitled 'What can I expect to see' here.  Think that might help a bit.

It is a great hobby, and perhaps think you need to take your time...the stars are going nowhere..(reactive to us anyway). 8-) just go with it....i have the same scope and set-up as you, and it is a great piece of kit. Good luck.

[robbierankin]

Hello Blazar. I'd actually read that 'what can i expect to see' guide from Qualla before. (I scoured this site for ages before joining up).

Seeing more of those small grey fuzzy images in the sketches by eye is all I want to do at this stage.

Once I've mastered that small topic out will come the camera gear 

In anticipation of that soon to come, near perfect night for viewing what EP's would you recommend for this SCT ?

I want to be ready when the moment arrives so I can teach (and impress) my Godson even more.....

Thanks again,

Robbie.

[Blazar]

Robbie, glad to see you are still with us ;-)

in terms of EP's I am probably not the best person to ask, as I usually have a camera stuck in it! I have a set of Plossl's, and a set of Baader classic orthos for planetary work. my favourite plossl is a TAL 25mm Gen 2. I also have a set of TAL barrows (x2 and x3)

I would like to try some of the Baader Hyperions. 

Think you might need to look at fob's as well as ep size. I still use 1.25", though have upgraded my focuser to a moonlite crayford so could accept 2"...its just I can't afford to at the moment.

Might be good to pop along to a club and have a look through some to give you an idea. sorry I can't help anymore!

[SkyGibbon]

Give that SCT some time to acclimate also. I won't even look through my 8" Edge, except to polar align, for at least an hour after taking it outside. When it settles down, it is very nice.

[AndyWB]

Choosing the right target might help. Many DSOs are fuzzy blobs with no detail. Try something like M13 (The Great Globular Cluster) - 8" should show it resolving nice if you're somewhere dark enough. Or M57 - a little smoke ring in the sky. Hard to find the first time, needs plenty of magnification, but worth the effort. 

When I went from 130mm to 250mm it was the globular clusters that really changed for me - and knocked my socks off! I didn't expect that. Galaxies don't change that much.

[Astrosurf]

I'm not greatly up on scope types so did a Google. Your SCT is quite a 'slow' scope at about f10 so, if I'm right, has a larger, but dimmer image. The Skywatcher is much faster at f5 so has a smaller but brighter image. I do wonder if that affects observing. I know it does when imaging.  Maybe someone can comment! (I hope I've got all this right!  )

I love my Hyperion EPs. They're so clear and not hideously expensive.

Alexxx

[Owmuchonomy]

I'm not greatly up on scope types so did a Google. Your SCT is quite a 'slow' scope at about f10 so, if I'm right, has a larger, but dimmer image. The Skywatcher is much faster at f5 so has a smaller but brighter image. I do wonder if that affects observing. I know it does when imaging.  Maybe someone can comment! (I hope I've got all this right!  )

I love my Hyperion EPs. They're so clear and not hideously expensive.

Alexxx

Correct, it is only really different for imaging.  Visually there will be little difference between F5 and F10 (in brightness) but don't forget the FOV will be very different.  Interesting about the Baader Hyperions.  I have the 8mm and find the eye relief (or lack of it) a bit annoying but you are correct, the clarity is great.

[Cath]

It's the Jaffa Cakes that draw you in, then whoosh it's too late!   They are very crafty.

[Astrosurf]

Thanks Chris, that's cleared that up! It's interesting about your experience with the Hyperions. I bought them for their eye relief due to my glasses (and rubbish eyes!) and I find them really comfortable. I must try others to compare.

Love them Jaffas!

[RobertI]

Dew is a bummer for an SCT but easily resolved -  and I have a dew heater strip permanently attached to the tube in addition to the dew shield. Takes 5 seconds to connect it to the battery each time I set up so no big deal.

It does take a bit of practice to learn 'see' faint fuzzies and they can be underwhelming to start with, but rest assured you will start to be wowed as you search out different objects under different conditions. The Great Globular Cluster M13 in Hercules is a good object to view as a test - it is truly spectacular through the C8 under a dark sky.

Regarding eyepieces I would support the Baader Hyperions - I have a 10mm and 21mm. I believe the Baader Zoom is very well regarded and possibly the only eyepiece you will need.

A 0.63 focal reducer is also a standard item for many people doing visual work with a C8, giving you a wider field of view which makes large fuzzies easier to see. I have one.

As a last resort if you do get too frustrated, get a smaller 80mm refractor and search out clusters and doubles. You won't have the same dew issues, it's very easy to set up and you can still see an awful lot. But keep the C8 if you can afford to as you almost certainly want to try it again as you get more 'into it' - I have had my C8 for 15 years and it's the most versatile all round scope I have had.

You've got the whole winter ahead of you which is the best time of year - stick at it!

[robbierankin]

I'm planning to attend the next Baker St meet in Regent Street, London next week.

Most of the suggestions and tips offered here have been noted on a list for when I meet the pro's next week.

First on the list - patince

[robbierankin]

.... or should that be 'patience'.

Thanks to all who replied. It's been extremely useful.

Robbie.

[Blazar]

Good luck Robbie. Have fun!

[robbierankin]

Friday night and the night sky seems usable.

Setup both the Skywatcher 130 newtonian AND the Celestron 8" SCT AVX in the back garden.

(No Go-To or anything fancy. Want to do everything manually tonight)

Go back inside to watch The Matrix - for the 104th time.

Neo successful in saving humanity so I go back to the garden and take the cover of the C8 to see what I can see.

15 minutes later everything gets foggy.

I then take the cover of the 130 and continue scanning the skies.

2hrs later I'm still scanning (but can't feel my toes).

I call it a night.

Now, I'm not complaining - I'm just saying. I'm a patient man....

Robbie.

[kerrylewis]

Robbie

Are you sure the scopes are focussed? When I first got my SCT I had an awful job finding focus at first. Best to focus on the most distant object possible during the day and then at least you know that you are in the right ballpark. Can you see bright objects OK even with the fogging up? 

Kerry