Whatever happened?

[lensman57]

I think some peoples perceptions of what is a minimum xyz is different to others there is no way a HEQ5 is a minimum a barn door tracker does that it all depends on what someone wants to image if its widefield with a camera lens then there are various cheaper options available, longer focal lengths require more sophistication it all a matter of scale.

There are so many variables involved in astro imaging and they all need to be taken into  account.

Alan

I am one of those who has an HEQ5 Pro but before this I had an EQ5 Pro and I managed to image with an Altair Starwave 80 mm ED on a dual saddle set up with an ST 80 and a guide camera on the other side and anyone who owns an Altair telescope can tell you that they weight about a ton, mine has a 3.5" focuser . The PHD graph was as flat as a pancake on 900s subs, the only shame was about the CA of the scope. So no HEQ5 pro is not  necessary for imaging or guiding, though the extra weight capacity is always welcome. I would still tell people that if £500.00 is all that they can afford and they want a new imaging mount an EQ5 Pro will be just fine so long as it is not overloaded.

Regards,

A.G

[HumptyMoo]

When someone is new and inexperienced, it might be harder than you think to filter out what is good advice and what isn´t.

Hence, why it can be very discouraging and off putting when such person is stonewalled with unecessary heavy (an unrealistically Budget wise) advice.

/slap myself in face now. need to go to bed grrrrr.

Heh, my advice? don't slap yourself just before bed, it tends to wake you up

I understand what you are saying and, that is why I recommend you enlighten those folks. From the little I understand, it seems that AP is a money sink, like buying a second hand car, the less you spend initially, the more you will most likely spend in the long term trying to get the results that those with shiny new motors get. Over inflated advice may well be a good thing just to reality check a wallet heavy newcomer. Either way it is as the title suggests, advice.

I myself was thinking of dabbling, but when I read the effort and money involved in getting the images I would really want to share/display I knew it was something for way down the road. I thank these people for preventing me from spending money that would have led to disappointment.

[Ptarmigan]

want to share/display I knew it was something for way down the road.

Oh, that is a shame,

I wouldnt do it for that reason

I would do it to find out how it worked / how it was done

to please me that I 'understood'

[sidelight]

For me at least, I started with an Meade thing I bought at Costco for I think £150.  That never worked but I was hooked.  Had I been told not long after buying a 200p on an eq5 pro that for images I would need to start again I would probably have stayed with purely visual.  I spent a year hacking things together, researching, playing and getting to know the gear I had, replacing washers and tuning up the mount and working on getting the best from it.  I put motors on and the shoestring adapter, hacked the finder scope into a guider with a webcam.  Slowly added bits until I had the best I could from the system (I already had a Canon DSLR or I suspect I would have given the idea up as too expensive).

Once I knew I had the basics to allow me to do things, I spent a year saving the spare pennies around kids, and the cost of living, then bought an NEQ6 and a smaller newt (2 newts mean I share accessories between them e.g. MPCC, saving some cash). Overall that initial 18 months taught me a lot, before I spent what was to me, serious cash.

As much as I enjoy this hobby I enjoy as much the tinkering and hacking stuff that goes with a limited budget.  For example having found that the chopped up foam mat dew shields died fairly quickly my scopes currently have ones made from  plastic flowerpots.  Made a light box, tinkered with focus masks etc.

Perhaps its just me but working on a tight budget is where I think I learnt the most, no goto so I had to learn to navigate the sky. Not so much technology, now it takes as long to just to wire the system up to use it as it did to set the old one up (next on the list convert a shed and get a permanent pier   )

My images were and likely never will come close to those produced by others, but I bet I have as much fun, To be honest probably had more when the challenge was not just about finding something to point the scope at, telling it to go there, setting up a plan and waiting, but was just getting images to process, although I don't miss throwing away 50% of my subs 

I do wonder if sometimes the basics we now perceive as being required haven't increased to the point where what can be achieved with perseverance, understanding and getting your hands dirty, is being lost by what technology can do for us.  Where if it doesn't happen out of the box its just not possible.  And I work in IT so am no luddite 

I guess Guillermo is of a similar mind to me, I've noticed myself when talking to friends interested in getting into this going from "well I started with £450 of kit and built hacked, and tinkered and it grew with me like any hobby" to "well you need to spend at least £1000, as long as you already have your DSLR".  Its not a great way to encourage people dipping their toe in the water, and had someone told me what I find myself telling people, this is not a hobby I would have taken up, much as I may have wanted to.

Cheers

Ross

[oldpink]

as a newbie on a budget I made some decisions after a bit of research
I had a £1000 budget that I spent primarily for observing and learning but also to allow some imaging (primarily solar system) with the option to move to DSO

when my budget allows (and the Mrs calms down)
I will say this isn't a passing phase for me its a lifelong dream that I can finally do and I will spend a lot more over the next few years upgrading my equipment

as I learn to use what I have and reach its limits (which is already an issue)

what I will say from experience yes some people have more money than sense and deep pockets and no clue
others have shallow pockets and are well clued up on what they want to do but can't afford the equipment

its like my other hobby, motorbikes I can't afford a new £15,000 bike so make do with a £2000 pre owned bike
and after over 30 years of riding bikes I don't grudge people with deep pockets and a mid life crisis  having what I can only dream of owning

that have never ridden anything other than a peddle bike

I chose to spend my money on a telescope setup to get me started on my budget rather than buying a £2000 guitar when I already have something thats as good as my playing ability will ever allow

it may be a top of the range guitar but I don't have the talent to do it justice

[swag72]

A thread that makes an interesting read, but is leaving out the most important part of all ............ expectations and possibly secondly, information.

People that want to start imaging seem to often have very unrealistic expectations. They look at great images and think that is the norm, not the exception. So they say, I want to be able to take images like that ........... my budget is £500. Is it wrong for those people who have experience to make suggestions based on their own frustrations? All they are trying to do is help others to avoid the pitfalls that they themselves battled with.

There are many people on here who image with a reasonable budget, I say reasonable as being perhaps under £1000. Their results are good, for the kit that they have, but how do they compare to those with more adequate kit, that more fit for purpose? I am guilty of recommending an HEQ5 and a short refractor also, that alone will push someone above the £1000 (new) without any extras. But it will work, it's as simple as that. Don't we want people to get kit that works as out of the box as is humanly possible? There are those who love tinkering, and will make anything work, but lets assume that the majority aren't that way inclined. If the beginner has kit that does not work after a couple of nights then the frustration will start to creep in, is that what we want?

Information - I have seen a thread recently that was woefully short of information by the OP - The first response was equally as lacking in information. Perhaps if the OP's put a little more in their opening gambits then people would be more able to respond. What is it that people want to image? What budget? What kit do they have already? etc ..................

AP kit is expensive, and ABS and the classifieds here are a great way to get some kit. People are generally recommended to look for second hand. That saves them some money and if the hobby isn't for them they can sell on at minimal loss. I think these are good recommendations to make.

People with experience in imaging give their time and experience freely on the forum. They help many folks to reach the level that they want. I feel this tone of thread is almost trying to stifle this experience. Would you rather that the good astro imagers out there don't contribute?

[GuillermoBarrancos]

People with experience in imaging give their time and experience freely on the forum. They help many folks to reach the level that they want. I feel this tone of thread is almost trying to stifle this experience. Would you rather that the good astro imagers out there don't contribute?

I think there is a difference between giving advice or poasting your expensive setup and make it "feel" like it´s the "minimum" norm to get anywhere.

Touchy subject, but some here have made themselves guilty at that more than one occasion.

I didn´t want to bring this up, but this topic is a fine example of that: http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/207884-any-new-eq8-reports/ (post 36 from a highly respected member makes the point very clearly)

And that is between "experienced" imagers and how things can get out of hand and derail quickly.

I see this happen in "newby" threads time to time as well. And it just makes me /shrug a little.

Hence, why I started this topic.

[swag72]

I think there is a difference between giving advice or poasting your expensive setup and make it "feel" like it´s the "minimum" norm to get anywhere.

Hence why I have no kit in my signature and I only offer advice on things I have experience of myself.

I think this thread is starting to manage to alienate people if I'm honest.

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Hence why I have no kit in my signature and I only offer advice on things I have experience of myself.

I think this thread is starting to manage to alienate people if I'm honest.

That is definitely not my intend. And no hard feelings to anyone!

Anyone can spend as much what they want. Buy what they want. That´s got nothing to do With it.

The core Message of this topic was just very simple: Modesty

That´s all really.

Like I said before. The vast majority of People just want to create images to post on the web. A very tiny minority indulges themselves into large format printing.

So especially for a new person looking for a CCD camera, I find it completely pointless to spend a ridiculous amount of Money on a high resolution CCD camera. Especially since they won´t be able to use it to it´s full extend.

Not until People start stepping away from 1440x900 Laptop and standard HD 1920x1080 TFT screens and 4K Television and PC screens start becoming the norm.

That´s why I personally think that a 900 pounds entry Level cooled OSC CCD camera (about 2-8Mpixels) will be best bang for buck to start out on as either Advanced beginner or someone stepping up from a bogstandard unmodded DSLR.

Also remember that the entry Level CCD´s today considered to be pretty high end in not to distant past. Technology advances fast.

But that´s just me.

[ChrisLX200]

That is definitely not my intend. And no hard feelings to anyone!

Anyone can spend as much what they want. Buy what they want. That´s got nothing to do With it.

The core Message of this topic was just very simple: Modesty

That´s all really.

Like I said before. The vast majority of People just want to create images to post on the web. A very tiny minority indulges themselves into large format printing.

So especially for a new person looking for a CCD camera, I find it completely pointless to spend a ridiculous amount of Money on a high resolution CCD camera. Especially since they won´t be able to use it to it´s full extend.

Not until People start stepping away from 1440x900 Laptop and standard HD 1920x1080 TFT screens and 4K Television and PC screens start becoming the norm.

That´s why I personally think that a 900 pounds entry Level cooled OSC CCD camera (about 2-8Mpixels) will be best bang for buck to start out on as either Advanced beginner or someone stepping up from a bogstandard DSLR.

Also remember that the entry Level CCD´s considered to be pretty high end in not to distant past. Technology advances fast.

But that´s just me.

Well that's a sweeping statement, personally I would not claim to speak for (nor have knowledge about) what the 'vast majority' or even a 'tiny minority' want to do, especially in the absence of such information in a first posting by the beginner requesting some advice. I also think it's good to be up-front about the potential costs involved in aquiring top class results, just to be clear, then roll backwards in costs to what CAN be achieved with a more limited budget (if a budget is offered by the potential buyer). What you personally think is as valid as any opinion held by someone else, but that's all. I am not going to change the advice I offer based on what you think and I sincerely hope the other experienced contributers don't either.

ChrisH

[lensman57]

Hi,

I blame all this on the weather. If it had been decent and clear then we would all be imaging and creating great images rather than being frustrated and angry because the expensive equipment that we saved, borrowed and stole to aquire is sitting there doing nothing. We just have too much time on our hands so we start being pedantic over small matters. That is my opinion and part of my advice to anyone new to this crazy hobby.

Regards,

A.G

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Hi,

I blame all this on the weather. If it had been decent and clear then we would all be imaging and creating great images rather than being frustrated and angry because the expensive equipment that we saved, borrowed and stole to aquire is sitting there doing nothing. We just have too much time on our hands so we start being pedantic over small matters. That is my opinion and part of my advice to anyone new to this crazy hobby.

Regards,

A.G

The weather has definitely been an outright dissaster these last few months!

Last night I saw the sun for first time and experienced the first Clear night, since before Christmas!!

[lensman57]

The weather has definitely been an outright dissaster these last few months!

Last night I saw the sun for first time and experienced the first Clear night, since before Christmas!!

You lucky man, evemy mind is clouded at the moment.

A.G

[Zakalwe]

I think it's wrong to say that people "dictate". It's advice freely given in response to a question. And with all freely-given advice it's there to be questioned, explored, analysed, rejected or accepted.

Sara makes a great point though....very often the expectations are way below what's "required".

No matter which way you look at it, astophotography can become expensive very quickly. its a great time to into this hobby as there is so much choice available now. The Chinese are really getting their act together and are driving the costs down all the time. For sure, the budget required to get into AP is potentially lower than it ever has been, but at the same time, you can spend as much as you like as well.

I know that I made a shedload of buying errors in my short time in this gig. I wish that I knew then what I know now.  I still have a drawer full of adapters, dovetails, rings and other gubbins that I didn't need to buy. And I've sold scopes that I bought thinking that they were perfect for me that turned out not to be the case.

The recommendations are only that, recommendations. I personally think that a recommendation of HEQ5, 80mm frac, focal reducer, DSLR is a good "minimum" to start with. You won't go wrong if you have that. Of course, there are other alternatives, which is why that is my personal recommendation (not a dictate, though).

It's not worth barracking others about though. As I said, its advice given freely, with no obligation.

[Dave_D]

Personally, i don't care what anyone thinks of my equipment (except me). Yeah my vixen GP is way overloaded and my scope,while having reasonably good optics is nowhere near the league of some peoples equipment, do i struggle with it as some people say? Not that i've noticed, but it's doing ok so far and giving (imo) good results. Sure i'd love a 16" RC on a super-dooper rock steady mount in a fully kitted obsy, but that will probably never happen. As long as the results are taken in context with the equipment used, there shouldn't be a problem. Of course the vast majority of us will never see the top end scopes everyone drools over, i mean, who here could spend something like, as Olly mentioned in another thread, 6 million on a 80cm RC? That's more than most earn in many lifetimes but does it actually matter?

[wxsatuser]

Don't talk image/observe.

Darn it!........clouds.

[Alien 13]

I think one problem is the use of the word "minimum" maybe "recomended" would be a better term, to me the minimum requirement for AP is a barn door tracker a camera and a tripod.

Alan

[Zakalwe]

I think one problem is the use of the word "minimum" maybe "recomended" would be a better term, to me the minimum requirement for AP is a barn door tracker a camera and a tripod.

Alan

its a good point, well made. I'd factor in the experience level of who's asking though. A barn-door is normally a DIY jobbie, which not everyone can do, or have the facilities for.

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Maybe we can create a "beginner" / "entry Level" primer into CCD imaging. And then I mean absolutely barebones / cheapest possible.

Will be interesting to see what people come up with.

Wouldn´t be fair if I didn´t start.

I would be thinking at the following:

Mount: Celestron CG-5 Mount (has come down in price quite a bit. Offers good tracking, GoTo, has guide port)

Guiding: Finder Guider + QHY5L-IIc

CCD Camera: QHY8L / Atik 420c

Scope: Skywatcher 150PDS + Coma Corrector + Adapter

That is as minimum as I can come up with for long exposure CCD imaging.

PS. I was also considering adding the Moravian Instruments CCD Kamera G1-2000 COLOR as a possible entry Level option, but it uses fan cooling.

[IanL]

Maybe we can create a "beginner" / "entry Level" primer into CCD imaging. And then I mean absolutely barebones / cheapest possible.

There are two stickied already, though I don't often see people pointed at them when they ask 'getting started' type questions:

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/11305-dso-imaging-on-a-budget/

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/36308-basic-widefield-with-a-camera-and-tripod/

Plus this latest one, which is about as cheap as you're going to get:

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/176799-planet-astrophotography-with-a-manual-dobsonian-tutorial/

[tollytastic1]

I think that Zakalwe makes a great point " if I knew then what I know now" . I would love to see a thread using all this wonderful experience perhaps entitled my ideal starter setup. All posters could define their budget as we know that this means different things to different people and with the benefit of all their past struggles go on to list what they would start with now. I don't think this would be more helpful to beginners than all the great advice given directly to questions but I for one would find it very interesting.

I have no ap experience myself but have followed this site for a long time and enjoyed watching posters experience/equipment evolve and so when I do take the step into AP I will thank every one of you for allowing me to learn from all your good and bad experiences.

As for us beginners I think without the wealth of experienced input it would be very easy to get very lost but beginners must accept that their is no "holy grail" of scope mount and camera combination and if there were where would be the fun in all starting from the same point.

I personally find all of the posts helpful and will decide on the equipment to buy from the advice given, my own research and of course my own budget.

Please please will everyone keep posting their own thoughts and experience as IMHO it all adds value !

[sidelight]

There are two stickied already, though I don't often see people pointed at them when they ask 'getting started' type questions:

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/11305-dso-imaging-on-a-budget/

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/36308-basic-widefield-with-a-camera-and-tripod/

Plus this latest one, which is about as cheap as you're going to get:

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/176799-planet-astrophotography-with-a-manual-dobsonian-tutorial/

Maybe stickies to these could be added to this section of the board?  I must say I never spotted them - but then this section was where I zeroed in and I haven't wandered much.  And they seem very much on topic for the topic of this section.

Cheers

Ross

[nickarp2000]

Well this one has created a level of interest unmatched by a firesale!

I remember starting out over 15 years ago with initially a pair of binoculars (which proved useless as my hands shake )

Quickly onto a manual Dob with 2 eyepieces (25mm & 15mm plossl) and I was swayed into buying a 2.5x powermate , all that for what was then a pricly sum of £600. (still got the lot as well)

Found very quickly that the images through the eypiece did not reflect what I was expecting particularly on planets.

However over the years like everyone else I allocate a few quid for extra bits (normally beer money saved up!) and treat myself to what I think I might need after scouring all the forums I can and asking as many questions as I think I can get away with !!

Then it's normally a hunt through the 2nd hand stuff and of course e bay and if worst come to worst I buy it new.

I remember when I first started I didn't even look at imaging sections as I found them complex and the jargon most people spoke was way over my skill level.

If people new to astronomy want to jump in at the deep end, blow a load of cash and then find it's not something they enjoy as it's blumming difficult then I say let them, it's their money.

The forums are free and impartial (mostly), no-body forces anything down anyones neck, and advice can only be given properly by those who have knowledge.

My telescope, mount and imaging equipment have improved naturally over the years to more capable systems for the development of my hobby.

I am now exploring CCD work, and dslr work but this is after 15 years of scratching around, learning, developing, but most of all making sure it's what I wanted to do

I don't do this to impress other people with my photographic skills or earn kudos in communities.

My satisfaction comes from problem solving, and leaping over hurdles, and sometimes getting a little bit better at something than I was the last time I tried.

A hobby only becomes a money pit if you have a shovel big enough to dig the hole ever deeper.

Most of us, in my opinion, manage to get out and look, image, record the night sky or the sun less than we go shopping for food, and it's still the joy for me when everything starts to work right, and I can look at Jupiter or Saturn and know that at that moment I am only 1 or a very small number of people globally who are doing this.

It's still fun, it's still a very hard hobby to master (bit like golf for me), and there will always be those that have strated after me that get better at it quicker than me.

It's not a race, I'm not going to become a scientist, and no-one is going to pay me for this, but I do it for me, and I love it.

Nick

[bogdog]

interesting read

and points are equal between both sides as i see it

newcomers need to announce their budget and state if no wiggle room..based on that alone should determine what advice given ?

i too have seen the bare min required stated in posts....but i am on a tight budget
to put it into perspective an heq5 costs the same as what i paid for my car?
some people "have" some "have not"..i fall into the latter

everybody who starts this journey wants the best for the job...but budget dictates..nothing else

and i like many others i'm sure are grateful of the recommendations of others that "have been there.. done it...didn't work"

one thing money can't buy...experience

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

Actually, I myself think the issue rather overblown. Yes, some people state things like "minimum requirements are XYZ" but then others weigh in with other opinions, which is as it should be. Whenever people ask things about equipment, they generally get a wealth of different answers, and a lively discussion ensues.  Guillermo should follow the stated advice that he should give his opinion (which makes as much sense as much of the other advice out there).

There is absolutely no point in dictating what sort of answers should be given.

As for bare minimum imaging requirement? Pencil and paper suffice, all the rest is luxury