Whatever happened?

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Whatever happened with modesty?

Lately it seems a lot of People here seem to have forgotten their roots. How it was like starting out with a small(er) Budget.

Big fat wallets (or deep red credit Cards) seem to have overtaken the brains.

So many seem to have fallen for the aperture Fever in astro imaging (megapixel race). Setting unrealistic entry Level base lines for People New into the hobby.

I am not here to dictate how one should spend his/her Money. I think we are all grown up enough (I hope) to manage our own funds.

However, one should NOT dictate how someone else should spend their funds.

Also, Accept a simple fact that some People have less money to spend than you. Should one then be exempt from astro imaging, because they don´t have the funds to immediately buy the best Equipment from the start?

Or better yet. Look at your own history! Did you start out years ago With a 6k+ 10micron Mount, a 5k+ Takahashi Apo and a 3k+ CCD camera?

I would be far more worried if you actually did.

We have a fantastic community here. But..... I feel the above has given it a tiny bit of a stain lately. But that´s just my personal opinion and how I feel.

[Uplooker]

I can't say that i have noticed that. There are certainly people on SGL, and elsewhere in the field of astronomy, who have significantly different budgets to spend than others. There may be instances where people ask the question "What equipment do i need to get the same standard of astrophotos as xxxx"? To answer this question a lot of people, myself included, may well say that a HEQ5 is the minimum mount. To an extend they may well be right. It is sometimes better to wait and buy the item that is the next or two steps up the ladder than you originally envisaged, as this gives a level of future proofing.

Can I ask what it was that recently pushed you over the edge / prompted you to ask this question?

Ian

[ChrisLX200]

The other side of the coin to the OP's opinion is that astro imaging is difficult and very demanding on the equipment. Experienced users know this and would rather steer newcomers away from the pain and frustration of starting out with inadequate tools for the job. This applies mainly to imaging - not to observing where even very modest scopes can be used to start out and progress in an orderly (and affordable) fashion. It is the attraction of imaging which is the problem.

ChrisH

[John]

I don't think anyone dictates anything on here. If asked to make recommendations or suggestions posters are happy to do so either based on their personal experience or from what they have picked up by reading about the experience of others.

I believe it's widely accepted that budgets will vary from not much to a lot and I'm sure folks try and tailor their feedback to fit a budget, if it's stated.

Sometimes more, or less, expensive options are mentioned as well, especially if they offer benefits that the person asking the question might wish to take into account.

At the end of the day though, it's only friendly advice and the original poster can either act on it or ignore it as they see fit 

There is an amazing amount of expertise, skill and long experience freely given on the forum but that is often balanced by input from those more recently started out on the "journey". Thats a great mix I reckon

[GuillermoBarrancos]

It´s been nagging me for quite a while. And instead of getting the better of myself and explode in a topic, I felt better to Write it away in this topic.

It´s not just With Mounts. A HEQ5 might well be the desired minimum yes. But what about a CG5 (which has the same tripod as EQ6) + finder guider + QHY5-II, which you can now basically buy for the same price as a HEQ5?

The most Heavy discussions seem to be about CCD cameras. People being very dismisive about anything below the 1500 pounds mark. Just because they can afford 1500+ themselves.

What is wrong with a active/peltier cooled CCD camera of 900 pounds? Why wouldn´t that be a good entry Level CCD for a beginner?

Ofcourse one can always continue to save up for the Next step. And then something even better comes along. So lets continue saving for another step? and another?  Get the drift?

I think more bluntly and importantly, why in Earth would one advice someone to buy a 2500+ pounds CCD camera when just starting out? That´s insane. Unless you got plenty of cash on the bank and absolutely dead serious for the longterm.

For someone just entering into the CCD imaging arena, it´s better to "potentially" Waste 900 pounds than 2500 pounds on a CCD camera. The loss on resale will be less on a cheap(er) camera.

But that´s just my 2 cents.

Plenty of Heavy discussions with imaging Scopes too. With a lot of bias and dismisivness against certain brands.

[ChrisLX200]

I'm sorry but I don't see any examples of the type of advice you suggest being given to newcomers? If you're a beginner with no budget for a cooled CCD camera then go with a DSLR - lots of great images taken with those.

ChrisH

[lensman57]

It´s been nagging me for quite a while. And instead of getting the better of myself and explode in a topic, I felt better to Write it away in this topic.

It´s not just With Mounts. A HEQ5 might well be the desired minimum yes. But what about a CG5 (which has the same tripod as EQ6) + finder guider + QHY5-II, which you can now basically buy for the same price as a HEQ5?

The most Heavy discussions seem to be about CCD cameras. People being very dismisive about anything below the 1500 pounds mark. Just because they can afford 1500+ themselves.

What is wrong with a active/peltier cooled CCD camera of 900 pounds? Why wouldn´t that be a good entry Level CCD for a beginner?

Ofcourse one can always continue to save up for the Next step. And then something even better comes along. So lets continue saving for another step? and another?  Get the drift?

I think more bluntly and importantly, why in Earth would one advice someone to buy a 2500+ pounds CCD camera when just starting out? That´s insane. Unless you got plenty of cash on the bank and absolutely dead serious for the longterm.

For someone just entering into the CCD imaging arena, it´s better to "potentially" Waste 900 pounds than 2500 pounds on a CCD camera. The loss on resale will be less on a cheap(er) camera.

But that´s just my 2 cents.

£1500.00, well I just made a bid for  a camera at about a quarter of that price was turned down abrubptly, so,  no not  everyone here is made of money and not everyone can afford £3500.00 for a little Tak or £2500.00 for a CCD or £5000.00 for a mount, but this does not mean that those people who can afford these should not express their point of view. I am with you on this point but the fact remains that this is a very expensive hobby and those newcomers who want to get into it should better understand that £1000.00+ for CCD is just tip the iceberg, filters, filterwheel, image processing software, power supplies, dew heaters, dewshields, controllers and the list goes on and on . At the moment we are praying for a week of dry clear weather here in the british isles so that we can make a little use of these "expensive" hardware. I myself try and desuade newcomers from spending money unless they undestand what they are getting into.

Regards,

A.G

[Alien 13]

I have pretty much allways advised the OP to go with the equipment they already own it is suprising what can be achieved with less than perfect equipment and even if the results are not spectacular it is allways a valuable learning experience.

Many people are unaware of the imaging capabilities of a fixed tripod/dslr/wide angle lens and thats how i started  my exising kit is very budget friendly but i would never consider upgrading anything because the limiting factors are the need for easy setup and the light polution in my area. These are factors that i consider just as important in the choice of equipment its no good having an auto guided ccd imaging system with an expensive mount if you are limited to 20 second subs.

Alan

[GuillermoBarrancos]

I'm sorry but I don't see any examples of the type of advice you suggest being given to newcomers? If you're a beginner with no budget for a cooled CCD camera then go with a DSLR - lots of great images taken with those.

ChrisH

So it´s either a DSLR or spend at least 1500+ on a CCD?  Nothing in between?  So we dismiss a Whole range of excellent entry Level CCD cameras just like that?

Why? Because they are not at least 8 Megapixels? They are not up to specs to the latest Megapixel hype?

[GuillermoBarrancos]

£1500.00, well I just made a bid for  a camera at about a quarter of that price was turned down abrubptly, so,  no not  everyone here is made of money and not everyone can afford £3500.00 for a little Tak or £2500.00 for a CCD or £5000.00 for a mount, but this does not mean that those people who can afford these should not express their point of view. I am with you on this point but the fact remains that this is a very expensive hobby and those newcomers who want to get into it should better understand that £1000.00+ for CCD is just tip the iceberg, filters, filterwheel, image processing software, power supplies, dew heaters, dewshields, controllers and the list goes on and on . At the moment we are praying for a week of dry clear weather here in the british isles so that we can make a little use of these "expensive" hardware. I myself try and desuade newcomers from spending money unless they undestand what they are getting into.

Regards,

A.G

You can make the hobby as expensive as you want. That´s a Choice! Not a given rule!

It ain´t any different on the observing side, where People get caught into aperture Fever and the TV Nagler / Ethos business.

There are plenty of People who are extremely happy and content with one shot color CCD cameras and use them for years. Not wanting anything else. No fuss with filterwheels nor expensive filters!

QHY, Atik, Morivian Instruments, all offer excellent entry Level One shot color CCD cameras (active / peltier cooled) below the 1000 barier. I think these are excellent for People just starting out, without having to break the bank. Easily outperforming any DSLR.

And you are pretty much making my point. With Our average European weather forecast lately, we are Lucky to have a bit of Clear sky if at all!

So why put a newcomer through the pains of a Mono camera, filterwheel and filters, when he can have Instant results with a oneshot color camera?

Just my 2 cents.

[John]

So it´s either a DSLR or spend at least 1500+ on a CCD?  Nothing in between?  So we dismiss a Whole range of excellent entry Level CCD cameras just like that?

Why? Because they are not at least 8 Megapixels? They are not up to specs to the latest Megapixel hype?

Surely it would be best to give your opinion on good value options rather than having a shot at others giving advice ?

If you feel there are better value for money options out there then by all means put them forward, thats a useful contribution. Others are free to give the advice that they feel best fits the need. Sometimes these views will coincide and sometimes they won't.

People contribute their advice to forums like this freely - we can't dictate to them how they do this.

PS: Thats 4 cents you have contributed now 

[Ptarmigan]

I don't think anyone dictates anything on here.

+1 !

Well said John.

And even if they did I "would hope" that we are capable of not only "managing our own funds" but of managing the advice we receive !

GB >"Whatever happened with modesty?"

Yep, one does wonder !

[Uplooker]

I would disagree, there are lot of people who use and also recommend people to get a QH8L camera, which is a OSC but only costs £900 new, even less second hand.

I understand where you are coming from, but I do not necessarily agree.

Ian

[ChrisLX200]

So it´s either a DSLR or spend at least 1500+ on a CCD?  Nothing in between?  So we dismiss a Whole range of excellent entry Level CCD cameras just like that?

Why? Because they are not at least 8 Megapixels? They are not up to specs to the latest Megapixel hype?

I didn't say that. I said if the beginner had NO budget for a cooled CCD camera then it's good to start with a DSLR (which they may already own). If you have 900 to spend then look around for a s/h camera from someone upgrading, you'll likely lose little money selling it on later if you should wish to upgrade yourself. If you buy a NEW camera in that price bracket then you'll lose a fair bit of your nvestment if you sell it later.

Whatever, the advice given here is worth what it costs, it's given in good faith but you don't have to take it. No point in being offended if it clashes with your ideas.

ChrisH

[Ant]

Clearly there is an option between that others have missed. Instead of moaning about it you should join in the threads and suggest what others haven't.

Most people will suggest what they think us the right path, I myself suggest an heq5. It is the mount I've got and I gave it because I think it's the best compromise between budget, weight and capacity.

I wouldn't buy a cg5, because I think the heq5 is a better option. I wouldn't touch a qhy5 - had one found them to be a distaster, never got it to work and gave up with it. But others have great success with them.

We all recommend based on our personal experience - if yours is different then it's down to you to recommend to others based on it... No one else can do it but you.

Ant

[gkec]

I do feel that there does tend to be a tendency to spend other peoples money and stretch their budget when suggesting having a go at planetary/lunar imaging with a webcam on your dob and see how you get on would be more appropriate.

There was a thread fairly recently asking about budget £100 binoculars and someone suggested a pair that were well over £500 which I thought was both insensitive and stupid.

Also why is this question asked so many times when there are so many threads on it?

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Surely it would be best to give your opinion on good value options rather than having a shot at others giving advice ?

If you feel there are better value for money options out there then by all means put them forward, thats a useful contribution. Others are free to give the advice that they feel best fits the need. Sometimes these views will coincide and sometimes they won't.

People contribute their advice to forums like this freely - we can't dictate to them how they do this.

PS: Thats 4 cents you have contributed now 

We all know a 6000+ pounds 10 Micron Mount is supreme.

We all know a 5000+ pounds TEC or Takahashi APO is supreme.

We all know a 3000+ pounds SBIG / SXpress / Atik cameras will blow you away with insane high resolution images.

The problem I am having, hence why I started this topic. Is that I see more than often, when someone says his/her budget is tight and set at 1000 or below. People just continue on advising cameras way above his/her Budget. Just ignoring what actually is available at his/her Budget.

I don´t find that good advice. Because instead of encouraging someone, you instead do the "exact" opposite. For no good reason (in this case). :-/ 

Ofcourse there are "justified" cases, when someone has a long focal length Scope (like a Mak or SCT) on a subpar Mount (With no guiding port, etc) as example, where you have to bring them down to Earth and say. Sorry.... ain´t gonna happen.

But the general feel I have gotten, is that some People have set an unrealistically high entry Level baseline for newcomers and pretty much dictate it that way or take the highway in their advice.

[Moonshane]

it's not any different with visual. I have three good scopes and a case full of televue eyepieces. however, I bought these when I earned literally double what I earn now and currently have literally no budget to buy anything unless I save my small amount of guilt free spends per month (about £25) or sell something. situations change but in my opinion one thing is always true. if you buy good quality used gear and then need/decide to sell, you'll lose almost nothing. if you buy new gear of any quality and sell you will lose 30-60% of your investment.

I'd sooner buy slower and better than quicker and poorer. Each to their own.

[Uplooker]

Simple solution - ignore the responses to posts that you do not like or as Ant says - make your own suggestion to people.

Ian

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Clearly there is an option between that others have missed. Instead of moaning about it you should join in the threads and suggest what others haven't.

Most people will suggest what they think us the right path, I myself suggest an heq5. It is the mount I've got and I gave it because I think it's the best compromise between budget, weight and capacity.

I wouldn't buy a cg5, because I think the heq5 is a better option. I wouldn't touch a qhy5 - had one found them to be a distaster, never got it to work and gave up with it. But others have great success with them.

We all recommend based on our personal experience - if yours is different then it's down to you to recommend to others based on it... No one else can do it but you.

Ant

I gave it as an example.

When Budget is tight. On one hand you can go for a HEQ5 and start unguided.... or you could pick up a CG-5 (With better tripod) + finder guider + QHY5-II (not the old QHY5 you refering to) and start guided imaging.

It´s all about Budgets and what one can spend.

[Tim]

Or if the budget is at the moment £1000 bit in 6 months time could be £1500, in some cases it might be better, that is, more cost effective, to wait the 6 months and save for the better gear........

Perhaps experience of having bought cheaper and then regretting it has enabled those with that experience to offer advice that in the long run leads to a sounder investment?

Just saying

[GuillermoBarrancos]

it's not any different with visual. I have three good scopes and a case full of televue eyepieces. however, I bought these when I earned literally double what I earn now and currently have literally no budget to buy anything unless I save my small amount of guilt free spends per month (about £25) or sell something. situations change but in my opinion one thing is always true. if you buy good quality used gear and then need/decide to sell, you'll lose almost nothing. if you buy new gear of any quality and sell you will lose 30-60% of your investment.

I'd sooner buy slower and better than quicker and poorer. Each to their own.

Not everyone has access to a large second hand market as in UK and US.

Here in Norway for example, the second hand market is absolutely terrible really.

So in my case, I am pretty much forced to buy new.

[Moonshane]

fair point about the used market but making friends on SGL opens up a world of used equipment.

also, a <£100 televue plossl is as good as anything else in all but field of view.

I only do visual.

[Ptarmigan]

Also why is this question asked so many times when there are so many threads on it?

I think it is exactly because there are so many threads on so many fora with so much written in so many places all over the interwebby that folk need to ask a simple question amongst friends and get a quick answer or three !

I think the idea behind these "starter" sections is great, the best thing since (insert variety of bread)

No one need feel "oh I dare not ask this, they all know, but I am an idiot for not knowing"

In fact there was a thread recently where someone said - in these starter sections - I paraphrase - "oh I have answered this so many times already I am not going to bother any more"

Yeh, no prob, just dont bother, but please dont bleat about it, not here, elsewhere yes maybe,

(apart from anything else it is immodest !)

[GuillermoBarrancos]

Or if the budget is at the moment £1000 bit in 6 months time could be £1500, in some cases it might be better, that is, more cost effective, to wait the 6 months and save for the better gear........

Perhaps experience of having bought cheaper and then regretting it has enabled those with that experience to offer advice that in the long run leads to a sounder investment?

Just saying

How do we know how much time that person has already spend saving up his/her 1000 pound Budget?

That person might have spend over year (or longer) scraping it together, coming all happy to this forum, only to be told to wait another 6 months and buy something even more expensive.

Then 6 months later he/she comes again, and someone will say why not wait another 6 months and buy even better?

Why? Because it has more mega pixels?  In vast majority of cases People posts images on the web anyway.

Tell me, who has a screen here at home that can show you more than 3 mega pixels?

I hardly doubt the vast majority of you People have retina like screens on their laptop or 4k displays at their homes.

It´s the aperture Fever among Astro imaging!